Deciding on my first serious loco


Yes, to both. What you can't reach easily to fix will confound you more than you can imagine. That's after you go through all the trouble of trying to make what you can't reach easily look presentable and operate smoothly in the first place.

That's why this is in many ways a very serious and sensitive and personal undertaking. Any boo-boos point back to you (and us...we've each made a few). If you can spare yourself the cardinal sins, the rest is just checking your notes as you go along to make sure your order of doing things will not get in the way of keeping costs and time and frustrations to a minimum.

-You need to match curves and function (theme) to what you intend to purchase and run on your layout.

-You have to be able to reach and correct things that go wrong. Derailments or joiners that go dead and make a whole section of track go dead. They oxidize.

-Your track plan should bear some resemblance to a real one...'cuz the real ones gotta earn cash. If you do something really basic and simple....well, how long can you watch a toy top spin down, and then watch it again? And again? You need things to do besides just watching your trains move.

-Your layout should have room to expand. Not actually grow, although I would never discourage such contingency planning, but to accommodate new purchases. I started with a 4-6-4 Hudson from Broadway Limited Imports (BLI). Before I knew it, I had a Niagara and a Challenger runnning on the layout. Good thing I thought to buy some 22" radius curved pieces of EZ-Track, which is what I used on my last layout. Had I stuck with my On30 set's 18" EZ-Track, I'd have been hooped, and stuck with highly desirable engines, desired too, that I couldn't run.

The key is planning and understanding. Those two are the foundations upon which a lasting, durable, fun, developmental, and varied layout is built.
 
Actually, I think he meant both. If your layout is more than three feet wide, you have to be able to get to it from all sides or reaching things in the back will become a big problem, especially once you have scenery and buildings in and you keep knocking things over and breaking them. That's one of the things that makes two or three foot wide shelf layout attractive, since you can put it flush against the wall and still reach things.

You also need a layout that looks good from any angle that a viewer can see it. That's one of the reasons Chip has that range of hills and river. They act as view blocks and establish that Train City and Rock Ridge are two different places.
 
Makes sense. And a lot of other considerations are coming to mind now that couldn't have before joining here. Like for the inside track, a shorter engine will allow for tighter turns. Having said that, I think I'll do some searching for turning reqs based on wheel layouts. Surely someone here or on google has produced a good comparison sheet.
 
I did mean both. The layout you see there is accessible on all sides bu the right.

I don't know that there is a published chart, but a good rule of thumb is to figure that the more wheels you have in a row, the less likely it is to handle a small layout. Although wheel base is not a reason I chose to model the 1800's, it is certainly a perk. I can get away with 18" radius turns no problem.

However, once you start getting up to 4-8-4's and larger you are starting to need larger radius turns. Of course, you need a larger layout to accommodate larger radius turns.

It's just one of those decisions you have to make.
 
I never could find any definitive sources for radius to wheel config, so since I want to end up with one HO 4-8-4 loco, would a 28"radius be stable enough to keep derailing down? Also, since plywood comes in 4x8 sheets, do you guys just stick a few pieces of 2x4 underneath and screw the surfaces to them to form 5x5 dog bone ends? Or is there something more stable or easy?

I'm thinking it would be something like this:

| |-| |
| |-| |

The - would be the 2x4 pieces running underneath with the surfaces butting up to each other to form a 5x5 square.
 
Well, I think I'm going with a 4-6-4 Hudson. I can't seem to find one at the moment for a reasonable price, though. I've seen them go for $60 to $300+. The $60 one is out of stock, and they didn't have a description, so it may not even be DCC ready. Do you guys think this would be a good first engine as long as I get one that is either DCC ready or equipped?
 
varillon said:
Well, I think I'm going with a 4-6-4 Hudson. I can't seem to find one at the moment for a reasonable price, though. I've seen them go for $60 to $300+. The $60 one is out of stock, and they didn't have a description, so it may not even be DCC ready. Do you guys think this would be a good first engine as long as I get one that is either DCC ready or equipped?
Click to expand...

Find out all the particulars you can about the engine and before you buy ask us what we think. Most engines we are familiar with and can tell you thumbs up or down. An engine is not an engine is not an engine if you know what I mean.
 
A solid, reliable, but unglamorous engine of the 4-6-4 type can be had from many retail/etailers for a low price if it is from IHC (International Hobby Corp.). They are solid performers, but unfortunately they are generic and look like what only one or two railroads ever ran. Later, you can alter them when you get the skills so that they look more like your prototype's. They'll need a decoder added, and I don't know how DCC-ready they are.

If you can find one from BLI, they will cost you anywhere from $180 and on up...depending. About 24 months ago trainworld was blowing them out for about $125. They are wonderful engines, and nicely detailed for the price. Count on paying upwards of $250 for any stragglers you can detect with an online search. They are out there, though.

Rivarossi made one (and I see has plans for another shortly), but I can't help you with that engine. It is sure to be used if you find one...almost certainly.

Does Bachmann make a Hudson? Not sure. They have a lifetime warranty on their engines, and they do honour it. Unfortunately, if it isn't in their upper crust Spectrum line, it is likely to let you down sooner rather than later.

I do think you have made a wise choice. I wouldn't, though, pass up a bargain priced BLI all-metal K4s Pacific of the Pennsy Line from trainworld. It may not be your line, I understand, but the engine is wonderful, heavy, and powerful. Something to think about, including that $250...I think.
 
$60 is fair for an IHC, but they are considered low-mid range at best. Most of the objections are that the details are off. Instead of matching locos to the railroad company that bought them, IHC tends to make a generic model and slap all the road names on them.

The one I own is a terrific runner. I timed it at 29 sec for a 9" piece of track. But it not my best looker by a long range.

I'd shop Bachman Spectrum, or Broadway Blueline (at their factory outlet), You might be able to get a decent loco for around $885 or so.
 
might I suggest a small Mallet style engine. I to am restricted in my layouts overall size. Mine started out as a 4x8 sheet but is cut and rounded into a "L" shaped layout with curved ends. I model a small Logging and Mining line with a connection to the outside world via a small shortline connection. I love big steam, who doesnt, but big steam and small layouts dont mix well, and the ones that can go around tighter curves just dont look right doing it. My primary engines to work my line are a pair of Mantua Classics 2-6-6-2 Tank Mallets in the Weyerhaeuser Timber Co. colors. Both are DCC ready and maybe someday they will get DCC w/sound. But with a small layout with just a few engines, its hard to justify DCC on my limited budget right now. For now the smoke and sound are in my imagination when I operate my layout. The Mallets come in tank and tender versions with several different road names and can be had thru a hobby shop that sells on ebay for just over $100 with shipping to your door. The Weyerhaeuser and Canadian Forest Products are in a strking green and black paint scheme, and it its correct for the Weyerhaeuser engine at one point in its lifetime. I have had or run many of the newer steamers. Even the 2-8-2's dont like curves under 22. When I ran mine on 18" track, if the joints were not perfect, the lead driver would climb over the outside rail. Bachmann makes a nice 4-6-0 ten wheeler that looks and runs great, they also do a shay geared type logging engine. The older Mantuas are diecast and pull like an ox, can be easily upgraded to a can motor to get the slow speed operation better, but will be more diffcult to DCC. Most all of the older AHM/Rivarossi steam, including the big Mallets will run on 18" radius curves, but look out of place doing it. They are right about having a purpose to your layout. The round and round with a simple siding gets old real fast! My logging line, with its slow speeds and constant climbing track at 4-5% in places as you work up thru 2 switch backs takes constant attention to speed to prevent derailments. once up at the logging reload station, empty log skels are dropped off and the loads are pulled out on the main, you pause at each move as the brakeman needs time to take off the hand brakes, hook the air lines and test the air brake before heading back down the mountain with a load of logs. The first and last runs of an operating sesson included the old drovers caboose to bring the loggers from town to work and back home again at the end of the day. some runs might include a new donkey engine, or supplies for the logging camp. Once back down at the mill, loads are spotted to be unloaded, finished lumber that is in various box cars and bulkhead flats are spotted for the local from the shortline to pick up. These cars are acutaly interchanged with friends of mine from the local train club. All have a car card system to track the steps in the cars journey and route it back to the proper industry when either loaded or empty. Very simple and easy to use, once you write it up, your done, then your not making up switch lists all the time. Let us know what you decide to do. Once I get some scenery done this winter, I will get some pics up. My layout is small, but it goes upwards with a couple of steep winding climbs thru the switch backs up the mountain. Cheers Mike
 
If you want a 4-6-4 that pulls, look for the Mantua version, all diecast and most times quite cheap as they lack the detailing of the newer plastic stuff. Easily remotored and many many details on the market to superdetail it as far as you want. Even the tender trucks are diecast on them. Mike
 
Say Varillion,
You sure have received a lot of great help to guide you along and it seems your absorbing most of it quite readly and even rethinking your desires which I, and I'm sure others, give you credit for!

The area you have to work with very much dictates the type of equipment you can run. Just like on the prototype the terain does the same thing so it's good your consideering all the variables as far as locomotives and the types of cars you'll be pulling as they all are determined by the radiuses you'll be working with.

One point I wanted to mention that can also add to the enjoyment is double heading two smaller steam locos to give you more pulling power especially if grades are involved when pulling longer trains and this adds to the enjoyment too.

As Mike above mentioned DCC while nice for large layouts where multiple trains will be operated by at least two different individual or more is usually not the situation with just you or me or him operating on our layouts. At a prior time I also thought I wanted a double track mainline only to find out that for the time period I was running, the 1890's to early 1900 and for a more back woods type of operation double track just wasn't realistic along with the fact I was only going to be running one train at a time going fronm point to point.

So I started building an around wall type layout I desigined which is a Folded Dog Bone with various passing sidings to allow for moving cars around at various locations as some are dropped off and others picked up to be delivered elsewhere.

I decided on 30" deep tables using the L girder type frame work to allow me to raise my road bed up as i desired to get a difference in elevation between various points and even allow for an logging operation on one end at even a higher elevation yet and I'm runing 6% grades which the smaller earlier 2-8-0 Consolidations climb fairly well but sometimes need to be double headed when pulling longer trains or two trips made with a single engine.

Getting back to the DCC, while the sound is fantastic, without a doubt, I, like Mike above will only be running one train at a time as there is plenty to do in the operation just like the real engineer especially when you start adding whistle sounds to communicatre movements to the rest of the imagined train crew. A company called Aristo craft puts out a radio controlled transmiter that allow me to follow my locomotive around the track as it climbs or decends the grades and adjust the speed as needed and I still using plain DC so there is another avenue for you too. As for sound I'm using MRC's Sound System for either steam whistle and bell or diesel bell and horn. Not as nice as when on-board the loco but a lot cheper in initial investment. Aristo-Craft does also offer an upgraded unit that allows even more functions like DCC and possibly with sound too but a decoder is also required for each engine that you want to have the various abilities but it allows you to stay with DC if your only going to be running one train at a time.

Another point I wanted to make about an around the wall layout is that even with a 30" deep table the corners require even a greater reach and that is something I'm having to tackle now as I will have four areas that might tend to be a bit of a problem at times but with the aid of folding steps with a hand hold I think I should be able to reach these areas ok.

But the main thing is that an around the wall layout even with a loop at the end can provide you with a lot of operation if you plan things properly and for the most part will be a very satisfying layout to work on, operate and add scenery to as most areas are fairly easily reached. Chips layout that has access on three sides also lends itself to easy access and that is one of the keys to an enjoyable layout as is operation to provide you with a reason to run your trains somewhat like the real thing rather than just watching them run around the layout again and again.

Hope I've added some useful food for thought here.
 
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Trussrod said:
Say Varillion,
You sure have received a lot of great help to guide you along and it seems your absorbing most of it quite readly and even rethinking your desires which I, and I'm sure others, give you credit for!

*Snipped for space*

Hope I've added some useful food for thought here.
Click to expand...

You certainly have. I will end up with one large loco at some point just for the look. Even though function is most everything, it's still nice to pull out that monster from your collection just for kicks. For me, I'm a bit unsure on the DCC after reading your post. I'm sure it's partially a lack of research and experience, but the idea of running two or even three trains from one box is pretty exciting. I definitely want a work train and a passenger train. Beyond that, I do like the nostalgia of this train: http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Bachmann_HO_51144_4_4_0_Old_Timer_B_O_Royal_Blue_p/bac-51144.htm

It would be great to integrate that even though it appears to be a very basic engine. I just love the look and color. (I can build anything, but painting is a sore subject, so don't suggest I repaint one :p) I could see a passenger and logging train on one track with the blue one on a separate track. I'll certainly have the length of layout for them unless I get brave with a 30 car loco.

What do you think? Can all three run DC, or is DCC on the bigger locos a necessity?
 
I think you have a bit of a misconception between DC & DCC.

DC operation requires blocks or seperate segments electrically to stop one loco while another loco pases on some other track.

DCC does not require any blocks with the execption of a possible coding track. This means that two decoder equiped locos can be on the same track traveling at different at different speeds in either the same direction or oposite directions. If your going to try and operate DC locos with DCC locos you will need at least a few blocks to stop the DC loco on and allow the DCC locos to run.

Hope I haven't confused you.
 
My sincere apologies. I'm sure many will love this, but I had assumed that DC was like the most basic of train sets. You plug a switch into one piece of track, and electricity flowed throwout. I feel like such an a**. Could you give me an idea of what a block is? I am guessing there is some switch involved that is handled by the controller.

I honestly have read about blocks, but I am dyslexic, and without a picture, I am lost on the words.
 
Okay, picture an oval track. Now picture a second one next to it. Each one is wired separately. Each one is a block. Now you join them, but you have electrical insulators to keep the circuits separate.

You can have can run one train on each block. As you move one train to the other, you have to throw switches to maintain power to the engine. There is a lot of wiring involved in running multiple trains from DC.

In DCC, there is no need to have multiple blocks. You can run as many trains as you have power for--within a few limits of the DCC system.

The main difference is that DC engines are controlled by varying power to the track. In DCC the power is constant and the engines are controlled by signals to the engines decoders.

The difference in technology is like comparing HD plasma TV to the old console TV your father had.

Investing in DC at this point is like investing in VCR tapes.
 
Now I'm getting the picture. Does this mean that a DC train on a DCC track would simply run full speed all the time where the DCC loco has a type of speed control?

Edit: Ya know it's funny. I've been reading various sites about DCC, and they can't explain it worth a darn :D Gotta love entering a new hobby with only the knowledge from childhood.
 
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RE: Trussrod

I reread your original post after now understanding what DCC is, and I get what you were saying about layouts. It might be to my advantage to have something like a staging yard on one end, something fun and interactive on the other end, and just the two rails in the middle instead of trying to squeeze two sets of track in 30". Plus I can add more fun stuff in the middle. I am doing a very similar layout to what you have. In fact, I bought lumber yesterday. So it will basically be a folded dog bone with 4x4 ends and 30" wide shelving to connect them. I may add just a touch to the 4x4 areas to increase each radius to 24" though. I hate to be right at the minimum for so many medium sized engines. A lot of the dealers show 22" minimum for the 4-6-4 and similar sizes.

Again, thanks for the perspective.
 
About DC engines on DCC-managed layouts: my experience, about 22 seconds long, and my reading of the descriptions of others' experiences, is that it isn't a pleasant thing at all. Due to the nature of the signal, its frequent pulses, the DC engine squeals in response, although it improves a bit as the speed of the DC loco increases. I feel that most people give up on that idea pretty quickly. Since some of them must have faster chips upstairs than I have, they would have decided in something less than the 22 seconds it took for me to make up my mind. :rolleyes:

However, for the sets that do allow running a DC engine, you have to dial in voltage on your throttle under address "00" to get the engine to run...it won't take off on it's own.
 
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