Which DCC system with JMRI is best?


C

Chugger

New Member
This is the first of what will probably be a million questions. I'm building a layout that is extending 20 x 30 along three walls. I'm running two lines along the length and most of the build out of the layout is in the corners.

I've been researching DCC. My intent is to run the entire layout with a JMRI server and to use the JMRI throttle app for Android for my throttle controllers. The use of the Android app utilizes my existing home wireless network and eliminates the cost of IR or RF controllers. Everything I'm reading and understadning is that I can do just about everything imaginable with the computer, the JMRI application with hardware interface, and a command station. I do have a technical background, so the technology does make sense to me, But having never built or run one of these systems I just don't know what I don't know, yet. So my questions are this...

First, can I build and run with JMRI, a command station and android throttles on the home network? (avoiding the excessive cost and clunkiness of the large controller interfaces)

Second, what platform would you recommend? I've narrowed it down to Digitrax or NCE. Most of the advantages of the NCE seem to be related to the their Procab throttle. But with JMRI to do all of the programing, do you need an expensive throttle, say the digitrax DT402? Which platform would you recommend?

A DB150 for $150, JMRI USB adaptor $62, and I'm in business?

Promise, future posts will be shorter!
Thanks
 
I use NCE powercab command station with NCE-usb to run trains and Digitrax PR3 interface to operate turnouts. So my answer is both :) I like the nce cab more then digitrax one but still want loconet for turnout sensors and detection -imho best of both worlds. JMRI can easily use more then one interface.

Now just a word of caution. While I indeed can remotely operate a train from my tablet or smartphone it feels awkward . I still like my throttle and can't see android as replacement (although having a controller for guest is good in a pinch of course).

As you work on your JMRi project please post your panel design. I'm very curious to see others solution.
 
Chugger said:
Second, what platform would you recommend? I've narrowed it down to Digitrax or NCE. Most of the advantages of the NCE seem to be related to the their Procab throttle. But with JMRI to do all of the programing, do you need an expensive throttle, say the digitrax DT402? Which platform would you recommend?
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that the digitrax empire builder will not read back CV's to you on JMRI. This is very annoying when programming locomotives. NCE cab reads back CV's as well as the Digitrax super chief, not sure about the Zephyr.

I use a Locobuffer USB from RRcircuits with a Digitrax empire builder. I am going to get a Sprogg II for programing locomotives though as my computer is upstairs.

If you want to program decoders on you layout it's best to look into making a programming track where you can isolate the locomotive you want to program. That means that you will want the computer you are using to be located close to your layout. That was the problem I ran into where it just didn't make sense to relocate my desktop computer down to the basement. So I use the digitrax throttle to run trains on the layout downstairs and bring my locomotives upstairs to a programming track on my desk to work on them. If you had a laptop that you could keep with your layout permanently would be your best option because you need to set up the computer interface and power up the layout before your WiThrottle will work. It just became a pain for me because I don't like leaving my layout connected to the house circuit when I'm not running trains (I'm paranoid about a lightning surge or brownout frying all the decoders that are sitting on the rails at the time).

JMRI has a users forum on yahoo groups that gets a lot of support from the designers and is a great place to bounce questions off the experts.
 
Good point about programing locos, this happens on NCE side for me.
But as far as dedicated PC its really not an issue, anything within past 8 years will run jmri (my dedicated jmri PC is from 2003). Look at your local Craigslist for a free old computer or laptop or netbook.
 
JMRI requires Java. I wouldn't use Java on any computer that is important to you because of the serious security risks. If you can dedicate an older junk PC just to run trains and keep it off-line that would be OK. But don't use the same PC with your bank records, personal items and email. All the patches for Java have not worked.
 
Charles Smiley said:
JMRI requires Java. I wouldn't use Java on any computer that is important to you because of the serious security risks. If you can dedicate an older junk PC just to run trains and keep it off-line that would be OK. But don't use the same PC with your bank records, personal items and email. All the patches for Java have not worked.
Click to expand...

I think you still need have your computer online for the WiFi network that WiThrottle requires. Not 100% sure though. If your computer is connected to your modem which enables the use of WiThrottle are you still at risk?
 
That might be OK. It's opening email with links to bogus places (which you never know until too late) and general net surfing and clicking on things that has to be avoided. Wifi has it's own issues but that can be improved by the encryption setings.

So far I haven't had a infection in the 5 years that I stopped paying for virus update programs. I have 5 PCs networked together. Safety is more about behaviour and where you avoid going. Don't answer any Ugandan email telling you you inherited 5-million bucks :D Hurry - click here to reply and give us your account numbers....:rolleyes:
 
Lots of good information. Clearly it seems I should use an NCE for running the loco's... and the Digitrax for switches etc. I'm doing this on a slim dime so I'll keep an eye out for an NCE system.
Regarding the computer, I am fortunate enough to have a computer in the middle of the room where my layout is, And the java issue is something to consider. I do have a low end server piece of hardware that can run JMRI on so I'll give that consideration.
So I guess I I need to save my pennies, the NCE Power Pro is more expensive than Digitrax but seems worth the cost.
 
so this is what I was thinking... for now, just to get started I look for a used Digitrax DCS50 Zepher, this is the older one with one less row of buttons. I can get started with it, then when the economics make sense I'll drop a bit more for an NCE system abd the Digitrax and be delegated to just track control and other automation. Does that make sense?

Has anyone ever seen nor heard of a layout with tidal water that moves with the tides?
 
Chugger said:
Has anyone ever seen nor heard of a layout with tidal water that moves with the tides?
Click to expand...
No. I think the real problem is that water doesn't scale. I'm sure you have seen navy movies where they cut back to show a ship and one can immediately tell it is a model because the waves are just wrong. This is more true the smaller scale gets. Water falls, drips, splashes, and flows in 1:1 scale regardless. People have tried adding soap or other softening agents to help but the bottom line is that it looks really goofy.

On the other hand, if one is not talking about real water but perhaps a stationary "body of water" on hydraulic lifts that just rises and falls next to a dock so it looks like the tide is coming in and going out, you might be on to something that is publishable in one of the MR magazines. I would think the hard part isn't the surface of the water but getting the right amount of "wetness" showing on the docks/retaining walls/shores next to the water.
 
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Chugger said:
I can get started with it, then when the economics make sense I'll drop a bit more for an NCE system abd the Digitrax and be delegated to just track control and other automation.
Does that make sense?
Click to expand...
doesn't make sence to me, this way you end up with two command stations (double the expense) and you only need one. on the digitrax side i only have the PR3 since all i need really is a loconet endpoint/interface.


the java hysteria i don't get, its not all that bad :rolleyes:
 
IH Man... very good insight about how water scales. At first I thought you meant all water scenes but then I realized you meant real water? I'm thinking more in the terms of a bladder on a sliding shelf with a slight grade that can move with a stepper motor, perhaps a harbor, and the bladder can be filler with fluid to allow the molder top of the bladder (expertly painted, somewhat translucent and lots of experimenting) to move just a bit. It could work, it could look like crap... I better remain focused on dcc for now.
 
Charles Smiley said:
So far I haven't had a infection in the 5 years that I stopped paying for virus update programs. I have 5 PCs networked together. Safety is more about behaviour and where you avoid going. Don't answer any Ugandan email telling you you inherited 5-million bucks :D Hurry - click here to reply and give us your account numbers....:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
legit.jpg


:D

Re: wireless but no internet, that is very doable. You would either have the PC hooked up to a wireless router (which is not connected to the internet) and the phone throttles connect wirelessly, or you set up your PC as a WAP (wireless access point) and the phone throttles connect directly to that.

I've fiddled around with my NCE system & JMRI a little bit via NCE's USB adaptor. One limitation it apparently has it that it can't send JMRI things like occupancy signals or any other form of feedback apart from announcing CVs while programming. As an example if you had JMRI controlling a turnout and were to manually switch it yourself, JMRI wouldn't know it happened. This is just what I've read in the documentation though, I've never tried it myself.
 
I was not considering actual water, but more of a sliding bladder made with tedious detail. I'm better off if I keep focused on the task at hand.
 
@Charles Smiley:
JMRI requires Java. I wouldn't use Java on any computer that is important to you because of the serious security risks.
Click to expand...

To sidetrack the conversation a bit, Java is not unsecure. There may have been a time that Java was unsecure but it is not anymore. I know this because I am a Java/C++/Assembly/C#/about 10 other languages programmer. Not bragging, just saying. Java gets a bad rap because it was designed with the web in mind and that is the direction that it has followed in recent years. Also, people hear the term "java virtual machine" and don't get it. Now you may also be a programmer, I won't pretend to know the answer to that and if you have a legitimate reason for thinking that Java is unsecure I wouldn't mind hearing it (I like to learn things I don't already know, just for the sake of knowing them!) and I would gladly discuss it with you. Sorry, I just like to stick up for Java. It isn't my favorite programming language but it is intuitive, faster than the old days, and pretty darn secure. Lastly, my rant is done but don't forget that Java can only be as secure as the computer that it is run on as with any other language that can connect to a network. IMHO, it is as much your job to keep a computer secure as it is Java's!!! :D
 
It's such a slow effect (even on a fast clock) that I'm wondering if anyone would notice it -- unless they sat there with their head in a chin-brace.
 
Back to Java... You might try this 'flag'.
web.com/software-development/java/news/432479/is-java-7-still-insecure-oracle-patch-doesnt-fix-underlying-vulnerability#

This is about Java - not Java-Script BTW.

Not to brag myself -- but I started 'coding' on PDP8s and PDP11s about 1972and still wrote control-system embedded code until about 2008.

A rule of thumb has long been this... Any coding language that makes coding easier for the coder is also easier to exploit. I did lots of coding for things used for national security purposes. It all had to be done in assembly language and/or built up in hardware in ASIC chips. Nothing from C++ to Java could touch assembly language for execution speed, compactness of code-space or difficulty to crack since it always appears to be unfamiliar and unstructured. Sometimes resembling techniques seemingly from a madman. You had to know everything about the internal structure of the specific processor used. Nothing was cloaked, varnished or insulated from the coder.

Coders grew to hate assembly language because if the original author dies, or quits, modifying someone elses code is a nightmare - hence harder for an outsider to crack too. Don't forget that Iran cracked the control code of military drones recently. I'm sure it was all coded in some higher-level structured language making it an easy target. They may have been using ADA or something (military approved) similar that made life too easy for code crackers.

Anyhow, that's how I remember it -- although 5 years away from it all could cloud the mind a bit. :confused:
 
I apologize if I offended you. I can see that your experience goes very far and runs much longer than mine (again, I did note that I wasn't sure regarding your programming experience!!!) Java is not the best language by any means but I merely meant to say that it has done a good job of keeping up with other languages over the past few years. Five years IS a long time after all and I know that this was about when I started to learn Java and back then it was low execution speeds that made people shy away from it, not security vulnerabilities. The article that you sited (if I have the correct one) actually references ONLY the JVM version 7 and NOT the version 6 or earlier; in fact, the article says that users should roll back to the earlier version to avoid the security issue. I also enjoy more machine-level programming more than Java programming but I think that Java today has some serious impact in the programming world. Again, I am sorry if I offended or upset you, that was not my intent. I was just curious about your reasoning and I appreciate you sharing with me!
 
It's just an interesting topic. There's no offence in software or 'crying in baseball'. :)

If you like machine-level coding stick with it. To most modern coders it has no appeal. They all want to operate in the glamorous GUI world. If you can do that, you have a big advantage over guys that can't write a simple real-time OS from scratch and live with K-bytes instead of M-bytes.
 
Chugger said:
so this is what I was thinking... for now, just to get started I look for a used Digitrax DCS50 Zepher, this is the older one with one less row of buttons. I can get started with it, then when the economics make sense I'll drop a bit more for an NCE system abd the Digitrax and be delegated to just track control and other automation. Does that make sense?

Has anyone ever seen nor heard of a layout with tidal water that moves with the tides?
Click to expand...

One of the beauties of Digitrax is its upgradability. everything is based on loco net. It you find that you need more than the Dcs50 zephyr you can get a DB150 booster. The zephyr will be your command station and can program locos quite easily. You can use a rrcirkits loco buffer USB or PR3 to communicate between the Dcs 50 and your computer and ultimately with jmri to use your wireless throttles ( ie your android device). It is also nice because Digitrax is fully capable of signalling and feedback. The basis is loco net.

You don't need to use digitrax products necessarily ( I use rr Circuits for block detection and digitrax for signalling and turnout control and feedback) as there are many out there that use loco net. Team digital also has some very nice hardware solutions. These can all be used with jmri to control a layout.

I have implemented quite a bit of this on my previous layout found here.

Dick Bronson of Rrcirkits is also a very helpful resource when it comes to signalling, turnout control and block detection. All of which are loco net compatible.


If you have any more questions let me know!
 
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