What If,...Designing a New Steam Locomotive Product??


beiland

Well-Known Member
What if you went to work for a model rr company, and was tasked with designing a new steam engine locomotive product?

Are there changes from the state the art locomotives you would consider, based upon your own experiences, and/or experiences you have heard of from other modelers?

Are there running improvements you would like to see made,..primarily mechanical ones,.... not digital electronics so much, as that's a different technology.

Are there any manufacturing cost cutting methods that might make it price attractive to the end user, as well as attractive to the manufacturer to get involved in a new product??

We're not looking for any particular engine types, nor livery names. One item that might be specified is that it have at least 3 in-line drivers that can negotiate at least 18" radius curves,...to make it more marketable,..(and more challenging to design).
 
Something unusual would be a ten-coupled (2-10-0, 2-10-2 or 2-10-4) that would negotiate 18-inch radius curves, with the center drivers blind, and a traction tire on one flanged driver. While 3-D manufacture could permit less expenses, enough weight might require die cast boiler and certainly the frame. I've kitbashed several of these myself from Mantua Mikados, so I know it could be done.
 
In order to ensure better contact with the rails, I would make both the locomotive and the tender considerably heavier. Tenders, particularly, need more weight. In order to accomplish this amazing feat of engineering, all we'd have to do is to use tungsten-carbide steel. It would add to the cost, but not a whole lot.
 
from another forum,..
Tender pusher
Because I model in N scale this trick has been used often to improve power pulling
With all the mechanisms on hand and diesel frame compatibility with steam tender this seems an easy way to go.

Not so easy unfortunately because of some factors

First you need a perfect stock running locomotives which run flawlessly with a good mechanism, second the synchronization of the speed and gear ratio need DCC to be achieved correctly between the locomotives itself and the powered tender, this is important especially when passing through turnouts where the tender of the locomotives must no be a pusher or à puller.

Good achievement were done with only a powered tender pushing the locomotives, a concept used by Fleischmann in most of his N scale locomotives with powered tender only; this ended with powerful and fine running locomotives

The boiler of these locomotives is full of weight and the running wheels roll without any gears, the locomotives is a full dummy unit. These N scale locomotives like a German BR 44 are far most powerful in N scale than a Bachmann Spectrum 2-6-6-2 or any other US mallet models in N scale

When seeing the power of a diesel in N scale or in HO this solution need to be investigated more deeply by using a diesel tender pushing a dummy steam locomotives , a quiet easy heavy repowered solution




Tender Driven Pusher
Actually that Fleischmann idea looks like an interesting approach.
Tender driven pushers with unpowered boiler might make things a lot less complicated to engineer and build,...and likely far less expensive to manufacture? Plus good big space for speakers up in the actual locomotive (where the sound belongs).
Brian
 
..from that other forum as well,..


I re-built two brass Ten-Wheelers for a friend who wanted them re-motored. The replacement motors were were too big to fit into the locos, though, so I disassembled the original open frame motors by removing the armatures and brushes, and replacing them with a longer drive shaft to the worm. The extra length projected from the rear of what was left of the motor, allowing me to add a universal joint to each of the shafts, then coupled them to the new can motors, which were laying on their side in the tenders' coal bunkers.

With the motors mostly gone from the loco, I was able to cram both of them full with lead, until they were perfectly balanced at the mid-point of the drivers' wheelbases. Those little Frankenshteens (not Frankensteins!) pull way over their original capabilities.
Wayne
 
another quote on that other forum,..

Trainman440
I just had a thought about what if tender drives on steam locomotives became common place.
Think about it, it would make producing and designing an engine much easier since steam locomotives comes in all sorts of shapes and sizes, but tenders stay more or less the same, so a similar mechanism can be used for all engines, sorta like diesels these days.

Tenders are also usually just a big rectangle (besides vanderbilts and slope backs) which can just be a huge hunk of metal, and able to fit a massive motor, making them able to pull quite a bit too.

Tenders also have small wheels, so slower speeds can be more achievable with the same gears and motors.
Lastly, you can now put the decoder inside the engine, which means sound can finally come from inside the engine instead of from the tender. You could also fit much more inside the engine like smoke units, internal detail, etc. Im personally not a fan of smoke units, but atleast now they wont hinder the pulling performance. (Im sure those who run DC are gonna complain how this point is worthless)
Obviously you wont be able to have slipping drivers, but the infamous binding and mechanical nightmare that comes with using steam locos could basically disappear. No more need for sprung suspension, now all the wheels have to do is be free rolling.

Now Im not saying this SHOULD be the norm, but I am proposing an alternate world, and how its not as bad as one may think.
Anyways, just food for thought.
Charles
 
I wrote this recently,..
"I experimented with that recently in just plain old DC mode. I used an Atlas S2 (die-cast frame, very heavy) to push my Backmann Northern around the layout. It did extremely well, and likely with a little tweaking could have done it with just as many cars WITHOUT the motor in the Northern.

If we could spend the same time to get all the visually detail stuff on the boilers of our steamers WITHOUT having to engineer the more complicated drive train in there, it would certainly be cheaper,...to design, and to produce.

And we could put a nice speaker system in that relatively 'empty' boiler shell to have fantastic sound coming from where it should. We could also likely improve the electrical pickup on those big drive wheels, spring them (as has been suggested), and send the improved electrical signal to our decoder in the boiler, then subsequently to the powerful tender."
 
from another forum,..





Tender Driven Pusher
Actually that Fleischmann idea looks like an interesting approach.
Tender driven pushers with unpowered boiler might make things a lot less complicated to engineer and build,...and likely far less expensive to manufacture? Plus good big space for speakers up in the actual locomotive (where the sound belongs).
Brian

Roco, Piko, and other European manufacturers commonly use this method for powering tender locomotives. Both boiler and tender are quite heavy in HO and both have all-wheel pickup. There are always traction tires on the powered unit, except for locomotives from Bemo.

These locomotives can pull an incredible amount of weight up grades.

Another advantage to this method of powering is that the locomotive itself can be extremely detailed with see-through frames instead of the big block of chassis that holds the motor and drive train. It is much more realistic as they can be made exactly like the full size locomotive.

TmKvGb9.jpg
 
from another forum,..





Tender Driven Pusher
Actually that Fleischmann idea looks like an interesting approach.
Tender driven pushers with unpowered boiler might make things a lot less complicated to engineer and build,...and likely far less expensive to manufacture? Plus good big space for speakers up in the actual locomotive (where the sound belongs).
Brian
Tyco switched to a tender drive loco back in the late 70’s I think. It had 6 axle trucks, with a weird pivot mechanism. The idea may have been good, but it didn’t run well.
 
Spring suspension on all drivers with axle boxes in slots in the main frame just like the prototypes. Unsprung drivers is the main reason for loss of traction and lesser pulling ability. Diesels and electrics with trucks tend to have much better traction because trucks can swivel forward, back and to the sides with almost constant contact of wheels on the rail. It doesn't have to be anything fancy like working equalizer bars (though that would be nice), but with all the electronics, doo dads, bells and whistles, the production time and money could be better spent on making a steamer run smooth mechanically instead.
 
Tyco switched to a tender drive loco back in the late 70’s I think. It had 6 axle trucks, with a weird pivot mechanism. The idea may have been good, but it didn’t run well.
From what I understand it was a very poor design,... that likely contributed to the many negative responses I have heard about this tender drive idea.

I'll have to get into more detail once I have a little more time.

The German manufactures got much more involved in the powered tender subject, and over the years brought out a number of different locos with tender power,..some better than others. There has been a slow increase in the evolution, and I now think this particular Roco engine I have acquired and run on my layout is extremely good.
 
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Found a youtube video for this specific Roco BR43 engine that appears to support that it pulls long trains, and I think this is a considerable grade it is climbing at this moment in the video (up and over itself in a fairly small circular length of track) ?


I'd venture to guess that grade is 3% plus?
 
If there is a grade there, it is a typical gradual railway slope. Maybe 1.6%, but it's hard to tell since the video doesn't show much of the first loop's start..
 
In the length of just going around that 180 degree turn it seems to well over itself by quite a margin?
 
Just happened across this very good (older) discussion

Tender Drive for Steam,...thinking out loud

Finding a way to fit a motor inside the boiler of a small steam locomotive has been a problem for as long as there have been electric model trains. I have seen four solutions - make the model bigger, make the motor smaller, put the motor in the tender and run a drive shaft to the locomotive, or make the tender itself a pusher and let the engine roll freely.
The first option is out if you care about scale fidelity. The second is reasonable (and of course quite common) to a point, but it gets expensive and reduces the weight available for traction in extreme cases. That leaves the last two, both of which put the motor in the tender. That's the topic for the moment, and I'm just thinking out loud, and perhaps outside the box a little.
Option 1 - Motor in the tender, powered locomotive
There seem to be two major issues with this design, even though it is fairly common. One is that the drive shaft is visible, the other is the torque reaction which can, in extreme circumstances, lift the tender off the track.
It seems to be that the drive shaft could be dealt with in a couple ways. The first would be to try to get it as low as possible - ideally underneath the deck plate. That should make it all but invisible, or at least unobtrusive. If you're designing the drive, it might be possible to mount the work below the axle instead of above it, and possibly angle the drive shaft if necessary. The other thing to do would be to make it as small as possible - I've seen some made out of brass or steel wire. Of course, a thin wire cannot handle a lot of torque, so there is a limit to how small you can go, but it can definitely be smaller than the typical chunky plastic drive shaft seen in a number of models.
The bigger issue is the torque reaction, but this has me puzzled. It's simple enough, of course - the motor turns the body of the tender instead of the drive wheels. My question is why we don't see the same thing with diesel models, especially light ones. After all, the motor is not rigidly mounted to the wheels, and the body can rock, so why don't we see the same torque reaction there? I suspect there are two reasons, both of which can help solve the problem in steam engines. One is that there is a much wider and more solid bearing surface on a typical diesel truck, compared to a typical tender truck. In other words, the frame and trucks are more tightly and securely connected and less free to rock. The other is that the typical diesel frame is fairly heavy, while the typical tender frame is quite light. The heavier the frame is, the easier it is for the motor to turn it instead of the gears.
Another issue that may come into play is that some steam locomotives do not run as freely as diesels. Rods bind if not properly installed. All in all, it seems as though our steam models were engineered a century ago and have not changed ever since - an axle running in a slot in a solid chunk of metal is far from the ideal design. Diesels have the advantage of better design (most have bearings, many steamers do not) and more careful manufacture.
So the solution to the problem of a tender drive seems to be to make sure the chassis runs perfectly, don't allow the tender body to rock on the trucks, weight the tender as much as possible, and keep the drive shaft as low and as small as possible. I think that if all that were done, a tender drive could be a perfectly viable design and no worse than other designs.
Option 2 - Powered tender, free rolling engine
With a couple exceptions this is a rare design in the US, and seems to be looked down upon. There seems to be a lot to recommend it, and few real drawbacks, so I'm not sure why it is so rare.
The advantages are a much simpler diesel-style mechanism which can very easily be hidden, and complete freedom in designing the frame and boiler, leaving the space between open as on the prototype. The disadvantage is that a chassis which does not roll freely could bind and slide in front of the tender.
Some people dislike the design simply because they feel that the model should be powered like the prototype, with the drivers doing the pulling. I doubt those same people have a problem with a model E8 with all six axles powered, however. The objective is to build a functional model which runs reliably, pulls a prototypical load, and disguises as much as possible the fact that it is not a steam powered locomotive. An electric motor driving the tender wheels seems no less prototypical than an electric motor driving spoked wheels underneath a lead weight, in my opinion.
The other complaint I have heard is that some people like to see the drivers slipping pulling a heavy grade or starting a train. While prototypical, I feel that slipping the drivers should be avoided on a model. It wears out the drivers and doesn't really achieve anything useful. It reminds me of those videos showing guys burning the tires off their cars and motorcycles - testosterone fueled silliness.
In other words, I tend to dismiss the esthetic and conceptual complaints entirely. As for the chassis binding - any steam locomotive, no matter how it is powered, should be able to roll perfectly without the motor connected to the drivers. If it doesn't, that's a problem with the model, not the design. While a pusher design is less forgiving of poor engineering, to me that is not a reason to dismiss the design. It's a reason to improve the model.
So what?
Like I said, I'm just thinking out loud. But I'd like to see people consider these designs for difficult cases, and perhaps not feel so ashamed or apologetic about doing so. I would also like to see people pushing the limits, seeing just how well they can use the designs to better achieve a smooth running and prototypical model.


Ken Rickman
 
What if you went to work for a model rr company, and was tasked with designing a new steam engine locomotive product?
As a modeler I would say the market needs more 4-6-4 Hudsons. We have the NYC J class in almost all of its variations ( and in many other roadnames that aren't accurate), and we have the recent BLI Santa Fe streamlined 3460 class, and even more recently Rapido has done the Canadian Pacific Royal. But that is it. The non-streamlined 3460 class was one of Santa Fe's "Big Three", and has never been produced outside of brass. The CB&Q 3000 class were amazing. 13 other roads had Hudsons. Where are the models of them?

Then Northerns. Almost all Railroads had a Northern Class locomotive. In HO scale we have the BLI Santa Fe 3700 class (which were actually mountain class locos rebuilt), they've done the NP A3 (if hybrid brass counts), we have the BLI Mohawk, and Bachmanns Santa Fe 2900 class. But where are all the others RF&Ps Northerns looked amazing, Rock Island, GTW, etc. Need to systematially go through the list and make all the northerns. Plus we do need a "better" model of the Santa Fe 2900.
Are there changes from the state the art locomotives you would consider, based upon your own experiences, and/or experiences you have heard of from other modelers?
lighted front marker lamps.
Are there running improvements you would like to see made,..primarily mechanical ones,....
I've never liked the worm gear only powering one wheel set.
And I would like to try the system they once used in a few brass models where you had to set the brake or it would roll away.
Are there any manufacturing cost cutting methods that might make it price attractive to the end user, as well as attractive to the manufacturer to get involved in a new product?
That is the trick now isn't it.
Has always been that the steam locomotives are too specific to a specific order by a specific road. Each model has very limited market.
The only thing I could think of is if laser printing got fine enough to print the entire body (boiler assembly) rather than having to add the detail parts. I 'm talking fine enough detail to get the interior of the cab with all the gauges, valves, throttle lever, etc in there.
We're not looking for any particular engine types, nor livery names. One item that might be specified is that it have at least 3 in-line drivers that can negotiate at least 18" radius curves,...to make it more marketable,..(and more challenging to design).
I would never specify something that would make the model look ludicrous. Case in point the My Athearn Genesis 4-6-6-4 that has the rear driver wheels pivot. When run on too tight radius curves, the cab hangs out over the side of the rail. Can't get much more toy looking than that.
 
Found a youtube video for this specific Roco BR43 engine that appears to support that it pulls long trains, and I think this is a considerable grade it is climbing at this moment in the video (up and over itself in a fairly small circular length of track) ?


I'd venture to guess that grade is 3% plus?

That railroad was built by a fellow member at the Railways of Germany website. English based if you want to check it out. I can't remember which member owns it though.
 
I'm thinking an 0-2-0 tank engine would be cool. A small switching loco for small industrial layouts with tight curves. Would definitely be cost effective too, with just one drive axle and no pilot truck or trailing truck.
Admittedly, it might be pretty challenging to design. 🤪
 



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