injectorman
Member
Question: Ive heard the main reason for blocks is so if a train shorts out in one block the trains in other blocks can keep operating. Right or wrong? And is there any other advantages of blocks?
Rick
Rick
Whoa!.... While true, you did arrive here and immediately tell us that DCC sucks - You should have known that's was going to raise some hackles!
Cheers,
Ian
So what do you think will be the next generation? The answer is 100% wireless. There is no better way. Its magic, so much data sent invisibly through the air at such a high rate, yup magic.
Hi Guys,
Lets say I want a deluxe system with all the bells and whistles. Eg wireless controller, quality decoder. No lights or sound just yet to keep it simple. It should have liven frog function, anti collision if possible, lots of possible loco IDs etc.
Here is the track layout below. List should incluse all wiring, plugs, interface boxes, power boosters, black boxes, some sort of unit where you can configure eveything (i think Lenz make one) and anything else you can think of that is necessary.
Can someone please detail a list of all hardware required if using DCC and say Digitrax (for arguments sake) or a similar brand.
Im trying to do a hardware cost and labour time comparison
Rick, wireless sounds great on the surface. I just don't see why a company like Digitrax or NCE couldn't incorporate it into their existing DCC systems (they already have wireless throttles). Couldn't Loconet be wireless? Each component would still need input power (wires), but it could simplify installation for newcomers to the hobby. We'll still need track power (wires) unless you know of another way to power locomotives (rechargeable batteries? meh). Basically, wouldn't wireless just eliminate the network cables and a few minor connections? DCC wiring is pretty darn simple as is.
OK, here we go - all prices MSRP from Digitrax.
- 1 x Digitrax Zephyr Plus - Two wires to the layout (One to each rail) - $250
- 3 x Digitrax DS44 stationary decoders (Each support 4 turnouts) @$40 ea. The DS44's are wired as shown below. The slow motion turnout motors themselves have switchable outputs to power the frog if you *really* want to. [And not generally recommended]
You're done!
We can add a "programming track" to which the second set of outputs from the Zephyr get connected, but this isn't mandatory - If this track is actually part of the layout it needs to be insulated from the rest and a DPDT switch controls if "regular" track power or "programming track power" is applied.
The next step would be wireless control, and there's a few options:
- Add a radio receiver and wireless throttle to the above: $150 + $235. This gives you the throttle on the Zephyr plus two more on the handheld.
Or, if you want radio from day one:
Replace the Zephyr with the Superchief at $450 - More power and includes the wireless throttle for a total of $450 - $250 + $120 =$320 total.
"Good" mobile decoders (for the locos themselves) are plenty and range from about $20 to $40 depending on how many additional functions you need. [Or more (~$100) if you want sound - Which is a *big* deal to some.]
Nothing else needed. Wat'cha got for us?
To be honest, your example is *exactly* what DCC is good for - Not too complicated - No reversing loops (require auto-reversers) and/or signalling, block detection or transponding - This stuff is where you've got to be a geek (and have some $) to get it going......
Cheers,
Ian
... But to achieve this DCC cannot be in the recipie. I need to move forward not backwards. Sorry this WILL be a standalone system. However its fully programmable so an enthusiast who happens to write firmware/software for a living could easily superimpose DCC over my protocols.
...
Rick
Are you sure you don't work for Mike Wolf?(mth)
All that you've said about Scorpius, he pretty much said as well, when DCS for HO first came out.
Unfortunately, unless you do have DCC compatibility built in, it will not be viable, no matter what it does, or how superior it is. If I can't take a Scorpius equipped loco to ANY layout, DC, DCC, etc and run it, why would I even buy it? mth was forced, because of the number of DCC layouts out there, to add some compatibility. If you don't have any compatibility built in, I don't see you selling enough to make it. Proprietary systems have a very poor track record in this hobby.
Also, since the controller communicates directly to the locomotive wirelessly (if I read what you said correctly) would consists cause a lot of radio interference?
With conventional DCC, you set up the consist, and your throttle sends a single message to the command station for the consist that is set up in the command station.
If the controller communicates directly to the locomotive, wouldn't it need to communicate to every locomotive in the consist at the same time?
More data packets flying through the air = more radio activity which can cause interference especially when they're all using the same band.
Look boys I'm lost some where here. In a post back a ways it's been said there is no receiver required. So lets ignore the consist for now, and if this wireless controller is sending out packets over the air to a specific Loco, just how is said loco supposed to receive it? And if said loco is to move where does it get the current from if we don't need any buss either? I don't know but there seems to be a lot of missing information being taken for granted here.
Cheers
Willis
...Before I proceed I want a system with Loconet as I want to run lots of stuff in the future, and a specialised device with screen to configure routing and more complex stuff or more simply PC connection. Then I will give comparisons on say a basic system and say a more complex system like the one I just described.
And Ill be running of lot of trains as I add more track so how about say 1 additional booster??? I also want to add signals at a later date but want the hardware set up now so I can just add on later without upgrading anything.
Do the turnout controllers have ID detection?
But I can start to give comparisons.
Zephyr Plus - $250
Receiver -$150-
Wireless cab -$250
Total $650 and only the cab is wireless.
Scorpius
Wireless controller $199
Receiver-None needed
Back box (Zephyr Plus)-None needed
Runs on 2 x AAA batteries with massive battery life, (100's of hrs)
Total $199
Saving- $450
System doesnt need loconet and associated plugs, wires, interfaces, power boosters, with all components future upgradeable. ID detection is included.
More to come once I get some more info on block wiring, loconet, boosters (like how many booster do you need for a certain layout with x amount of blocks and x amount of locos.
Remember Wii, Playstation and X box are all 100% totally uncompatible but they all have satisfied customers and are kicking butt. My dad still plays records. Why would he want to buy an MP player or even a CD?Rick
Your examples are flawed. Sure there are lots of videogame systems (I know, my kids own most of them) but with a very few exceptions, most software companies release game software for all of the platforms, so you can play the same game on any system.
Sure you can play music on many platforms, but you can get the same songs on any of the platforms. See where I'm heading? By excluding any sort of DCC compatibility, you're eliminating a large part of the market from your customer pool. Such as me. I don't have a great deal invested in a system, but I have a considerable amount invested in sound and silent decoders. What I have is easy to use, and it works fine.
I'm not opposed to new ideas in any way shape or form, but CJ was right, proprietary systems have not done well with model railroaders. This includes things like wheels, couplers, you name it...not just electronics and software. If I can't use my existing stuff on your system...see ya around! Hope you find enough noobs to keep you afloat!
Incorrect. You cannot play say game A for Playstation on X box or vice versa. This is a commonmisconception.
For music? Same answer as above. You buy Beatles White album on CD, you cant play it on your MP player.
if I overlayed DCC to keep guys like yourself interested would it make much of a difference?
I already have hundreds of sales from slot car enthusiasts which are in the same boat. They simply dont care about existing propriety systems (obviously). They like what they see. They see the huge benefits over existing systems and think it offers them the best bang for buck, hence the success of Scorpius thus far. Trains will be no different.
Sorry I just dont buy the compatibility story
(Sorry son you cant have that Playstation game because its not compatible to XBox)......simply doesn't happen.
any of the failed proprietry systems even remotely similar to Scorpius? No, no where near.
Once again thanks for your input, much appreciated.
Rick
No but you can buy the same game for X Box or PS3 or Wii. Game manufacturers are marketing their games on all formats.
Likewise music. No you can't play a CD on an MP4 player, but you can buy the music in either CD or MP4 formats. The music industry is making sure they offer their wares in all current formats.
Why do you think MTH offers limited DCC compatibility in their locomotives, and has recently begun offering DCC ready versions of same? They would not have done so if it made no difference. It obviously does, or they wouldn't have done it. Why not do it if it is possible? Why cut yourself off from possible sales?
That's your choice, but you might want to be careful about lumping slot cars and model railroading together too quickly. They are quite different. there are different objects to the game. You have not addressed sound, or how the rest of the manufacturers will address your system. DCC is fully supported by locomotive manufacturers. If Scorpius users have to buy basic locos and install your hardware, you'll lose the RTR with sound segment, and it is HUGE and still growing! This is all stuff we'd like to hear about
LOL! You don't have any kids do you? It certainly does happen. "No problem son, we'll just replace your entire game system and all your games because of this one new game." Now that's what's not likely to happen
Loco Linc comes to mind. In any case, not meaning to beat you up, but this whole thread has the feel of someone who, however well intentioned, still has quite a bit to learn about this hobby. You seem in a big hurry to lump trains in with slot cars. Your presentation has a long way to go. There are still tons of unanswered questions.
It sounds like really cool technology, but I'll be surprised if your high hopes for it pan out.
Say I'm a noob. (Well, more of a noob.) I walk into a hobby shop, pick up a few engines I like the looks of, and ask the guy behind the counter about control systems. He tells me about DC and hooking up power districts, and I figure, eh, too complex. Then he tells me about DCC, points out that one or two of the locos I've picked up have DCC pre-installed, and mentions how easy it is to set up, the many manufacturers who make DCC compatible equipment, and the rack of DCC guides, manuals, and support info. Then he mentions your Scorpius system, with the 2.4 gig radio signals, the engines recognizing turnouts, and the laptop attachment. Oh, and nothing comes with it pre-installed, so I'll have to do all the fiddly solder work on my own. Even if your system is more powerful, chances are I'll go DCC.
DCC is pretty dominant at the moment. To unseat an industry standard you need something that's hugely better. You're clearly sold on Scorpius, but you need to convince the modeling community. (Remember, the noob will probably come to a forum, or ask the dude in the hobby shop, before buying a system.)
That said, I'd love to see a demo vid. It sounds like a very cool system. I just don't see it selling.