injectorman
Member
Question: Ive heard the main reason for blocks is so if a train shorts out in one block the trains in other blocks can keep operating. Right or wrong? And is there any other advantages of blocks?
Rick
Rick
Scorpius wireless digital train system
- Thread starter injectorman
- Start date
injectorman
Member
Not sucks, but I did say it had buried itself in complexity and politics, I still stand by that.
I hear a reasonable percentage complaining about DCC on various forums by new enthusiasts themselves trying to get their head around it, enough that it came to my attention and seen a hole that needs to be filled.
Last time I went to a model train shop 2 customers in an hour came in trying how to figure out their DCC controller.
So instead of complaining I thought it more constructive to actually do something. Radical? Yup....love it.
Hey if I thought DCC was so fantastic I wouldnt be making Scorpius for trains would I?
As I say DCC does the job, 100% wireless takes it much further.
Rick
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injectorman
Member
Hi Guys,
Lets say I want a deluxe system with all the bells and whistles. Eg wireless controller, quality decoder. No lights or sound just yet to keep it simple. It should have liven frog function, anti collision if possible, lots of possible loco IDs etc.
Here is the track layout below. List should incluse all wiring, plugs, interface boxes, power boosters, black boxes, some sort of unit where you can configure eveything (i think Lenz make one) and anything else you can think of that is necessary.
Can someone please detail a list of all hardware required if using DCC and say Digitrax (for arguments sake) or a similar brand.
Im trying to do a hardware cost and labour time comparison.
12 turnouts are required.
Thanks if anyone can help.
Rick
Lets say I want a deluxe system with all the bells and whistles. Eg wireless controller, quality decoder. No lights or sound just yet to keep it simple. It should have liven frog function, anti collision if possible, lots of possible loco IDs etc.
Here is the track layout below. List should incluse all wiring, plugs, interface boxes, power boosters, black boxes, some sort of unit where you can configure eveything (i think Lenz make one) and anything else you can think of that is necessary.
Can someone please detail a list of all hardware required if using DCC and say Digitrax (for arguments sake) or a similar brand.
Im trying to do a hardware cost and labour time comparison.
12 turnouts are required.
Thanks if anyone can help.
Rick
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grande man
Bonafied Grande Nut
Rick, wireless sounds great on the surface. I just don't see why a company like Digitrax or NCE couldn't incorporate it into their existing DCC systems (they already have wireless throttles). Couldn't Loconet be wireless? Each component would still need input power (wires), but it could simplify installation for newcomers to the hobby. We'll still need track power (wires) unless you know of another way to power locomotives (rechargeable batteries? meh). Basically, wouldn't wireless just eliminate the network cables and a few minor connections? DCC wiring is pretty darn simple as is.
OK, here we go - all prices MSRP from Digitrax.
- 1 x Digitrax Zephyr Plus - Two wires to the layout (One to each rail) - $250
- 3 x Digitrax DS44 stationary decoders (Each support 4 turnouts) @$40 ea. The DS44's are wired as shown below. The slow motion turnout motors themselves have switchable outputs to power the frog if you *really* want to. [And not generally recommended]
You're done!
We can add a "programming track" to which the second set of outputs from the Zephyr get connected, but this isn't mandatory - If this track is actually part of the layout it needs to be insulated from the rest and a DPDT switch controls if "regular" track power or "programming track power" is applied.
The next step would be wireless control, and there's a few options:
- Add a radio receiver and wireless throttle to the above: $150 + $235. This gives you the throttle on the Zephyr plus two more on the handheld.
Or, if you want radio from day one:
Replace the Zephyr with the Superchief at $450 - More power and includes the wireless throttle for a total of $450 - $250 + $120 =$320 total.
"Good" mobile decoders (for the locos themselves) are plenty and range from about $20 to $40 depending on how many additional functions you need. [Or more (~$100) if you want sound - Which is a *big* deal to some.]
Nothing else needed. Wat'cha got for us?
To be honest, your example is *exactly* what DCC is good for - Not too complicated - No reversing loops (require auto-reversers) and/or signalling, block detection or transponding - This stuff is where you've got to be a geek (and have some $) to get it going......
Cheers,
Ian
injectorman
Member
Sure Loconet could be wireless.
Yes install time dramatically reduced. And when you move your track or reconfigure the layout its also very simple.
Batteries not the go for most gauges.
Big difference is with scorpius wireless signal from controller goes direct to loco, not via receiver, then via rails to loco, much simpler, and eliminates black box and receiver.
Rick
injectorman
Member
OK, here we go - all prices MSRP from Digitrax.
- 1 x Digitrax Zephyr Plus - Two wires to the layout (One to each rail) - $250
- 3 x Digitrax DS44 stationary decoders (Each support 4 turnouts) @$40 ea. The DS44's are wired as shown below. The slow motion turnout motors themselves have switchable outputs to power the frog if you *really* want to. [And not generally recommended]
You're done!
We can add a "programming track" to which the second set of outputs from the Zephyr get connected, but this isn't mandatory - If this track is actually part of the layout it needs to be insulated from the rest and a DPDT switch controls if "regular" track power or "programming track power" is applied.
The next step would be wireless control, and there's a few options:
- Add a radio receiver and wireless throttle to the above: $150 + $235. This gives you the throttle on the Zephyr plus two more on the handheld.
Or, if you want radio from day one:
Replace the Zephyr with the Superchief at $450 - More power and includes the wireless throttle for a total of $450 - $250 + $120 =$320 total.
"Good" mobile decoders (for the locos themselves) are plenty and range from about $20 to $40 depending on how many additional functions you need. [Or more (~$100) if you want sound - Which is a *big* deal to some.]
Nothing else needed. Wat'cha got for us?
To be honest, your example is *exactly* what DCC is good for - Not too complicated - No reversing loops (require auto-reversers) and/or signalling, block detection or transponding - This stuff is where you've got to be a geek (and have some $) to get it going......
Cheers,
Ian
Cool thanks Ian,
I understand the programming track.
Before I proceed I want a system with Loconet as I want to run lots of stuff in the future, and a specialised device with screen to configure routing and more complex stuff or more simply PC connection. Then I will give comparisons on say a basic system and say a more complex system like the one I just described.
And Ill be running of lot of trains as I add more track so how about say 1 additional booster??? I also want to add signals at a later date but want the hardware set up now so I can just add on later without upgrading anything.
Do the turnout controllers have ID detection?
But I can start to give comparisons.
Zephyr Plus - $250
Receiver -$150-
Wireless cab -$250
Total $650 and only the cab is wireless.
Scorpius
Wireless controller $199
Receiver-None needed
Back box (Zephyr Plus)-None needed
Runs on 2 x AAA batteries with massive battery life, (100's of hrs)
Total $199
Saving- $450
System doesnt need loconet and associated plugs, wires, interfaces, power boosters, with all components future upgradeable. ID detection is included.
And theres many other benefits but the list is long.
Starting to look good aint it?
More to come once I get some more info on block wiring, loconet, boosters (like how many booster do you need for a certain layout with x amount of blocks and x amount of locos.
Scorpius turnout controllers will be considerably more expensive however. Decoders will be $49.95 or if it gets going strongly $39.95
Rick
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Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
Are you sure you don't work for Mike Wolf?(mth)
All that you've said about Scorpius, he pretty much said as well, when DCS for HO first came out.
Unfortunately, unless you do have DCC compatibility built in, it will not be viable, no matter what it does, or how superior it is. If I can't take a Scorpius equipped loco to ANY layout, DC, DCC, etc and run it, why would I even buy it? mth was forced, because of the number of DCC layouts out there, to add some compatibility. If you don't have any compatibility built in, I don't see you selling enough to make it. Proprietary systems have a very poor track record in this hobby.
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diburning
AlcoHaulic
Also, since the controller communicates directly to the locomotive wirelessly (if I read what you said correctly) would consists cause a lot of radio interference? With conventional DCC, you set up the consist, and your throttle sends a single message to the command station for the consist that is set up in the command station.
If the controller communicates directly to the locomotive, wouldn't it need to communicate to every locomotive in the consist at the same time? More data packets flying through the air = more radio activity which can cause interference especially when they're all using the same band.
If the controller communicates directly to the locomotive, wouldn't it need to communicate to every locomotive in the consist at the same time? More data packets flying through the air = more radio activity which can cause interference especially when they're all using the same band.
Look boys I'm lost some where here. In a post back a ways it's been said there is no receiver required. So lets ignore the consist for now, and if this wireless controller is sending out packets over the air to a specific Loco, just how is said loco supposed to receive it? And if said loco is to move where does it get the current from if we don't need any buss either? I don't know but there seems to be a lot of missing information being taken for granted here.
Cheers
Willis
Cheers
Willis
injectorman
Member
Are you sure you don't work for Mike Wolf?(mth)
All that you've said about Scorpius, he pretty much said as well, when DCS for HO first came out.
Unfortunately, unless you do have DCC compatibility built in, it will not be viable, no matter what it does, or how superior it is. If I can't take a Scorpius equipped loco to ANY layout, DC, DCC, etc and run it, why would I even buy it? mth was forced, because of the number of DCC layouts out there, to add some compatibility. If you don't have any compatibility built in, I don't see you selling enough to make it. Proprietary systems have a very poor track record in this hobby.
Whos Mike Wolf, Id like to meet him. He has guts.
So it didnt work out, but perhaps you think Scorpius is even remotely similar?
Sorry I completely 100% disagree but thankyou for your input
Thats the great thing about forums, everyone can put their point of view across
Id be intersted in any positive input too
Remember Im choosing NOT to put DCC protocols on my system for a reason.
Remember Wii, Playstation and X box are all 100% totally uncompatible but they all have satisfied customers and are kicking butt. My dad still plays records. Why would he want to buy an MP player or even a CD?
Me I use MP4, not records. He is happy, I am happy. So please realise not everyone is the same. Its all good.
Rick
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injectorman
Member
No its close to bullet proof, in 3 years of development interference has never been noticed.
Good question. No the only packets are sent from the controller to 1 or 100 locos. For consists each chip is configured separately if required. So no more data for 100 locos than 1 loco.
Each controller is on a different frequency and has auto channel hopping should any channel detect another 2.4GHz signal, it simply hops to the next free channel.
Locos are also on separate frequencies.
Turnout controllers are all on on channel with code to distinguish each ID.
Also there is a security code on every packet so no one can hack your channel even IF on the SAME frequency, pretty cool huh?
Rick
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injectorman
Member
Gidday Willis,
No problem
In post number 1 it states the decoder is wireless eg transceiver eg sends and receives data
No data is on rails and hence a sharp clean signal is received 100% of the time regardless of track condition.
Rick
Loconet is there - It's just that we don't need it in this example. But, it we wanted a computer we'd need a Loconet -> USB interface (~$40 from memory) and a telco cable. JMRI will then allow TO's to be thrown with a mouse click, locos controlled with a slider and so on - Nothing else needed.
Not really - They default to #'s 1-4. A quick (and simple) setup is needed to set the others to 5-8 and 9-12 in this example. [You can set individual, non-sequential numbers for each "channel", but if you do you know what and why you're doing it.]
A bad example on my part obviously - My bad! - I shouldn't have even mentioned the Zephyr but rather just "pitched" the Super Chief - Use that instead of the Zephyr. This wireless cab can control two locos at once btw.
Plus, even at your lower price of $40ea another $480 for the TO controllers!
Nor here! As mentioned, Loconet is available but not needed. No more power or boosters needed - "All included!"
I'm sure some will disagree, but most (non-club size) layouts run quite happily with a single booster (In addition to the 5A version discussed, they also do an 8amp which will power a *lot* without any help.)
Blocks are nowadays used generally to provide "auto-reversing" sections. [Something slots don't need to worry about!) - Think a loop of track coming back into itself via a TO - We'd have a dead short across the rails. If we isolate this section and put an auto-reverser (~$50) in the feed wires we're done - When a loco enters the reversing section the black box automagically reverses the phase and life continues.
*Large* layouts may have many reversing sections and/or a need for "more power" - In that case additional boosters can be added as required - Pretty cheaply - We don't need any intelligence here, just more juice.
Cheers,
Ian
Your examples are flawed. Sure there are lots of videogame systems (I know, my kids own most of them
) but with a very few exceptions, most software companies release game software for all of the platforms, so you can play the same game on any system. Sure you can play music on many platforms, but you can get the same songs on any of the platforms. See where I'm heading? By excluding any sort of DCC compatibility, you're eliminating a large part of the market from your customer pool. Such as me. I don't have a great deal invested in a system, but I have a considerable amount invested in sound and silent decoders. What I have is easy to use, and it works fine.
I'm not opposed to new ideas in any way shape or form, but CJ was right, proprietary systems have not done well with model railroaders. This includes things like wheels, couplers, you name it...not just electronics and software. If I can't use my existing stuff on your system...see ya around! Hope you find enough noobs to keep you afloat!
injectorman
Member
Your examples are flawed. Sure there are lots of videogame systems (I know, my kids own most of them
Sure you can play music on many platforms, but you can get the same songs on any of the platforms. See where I'm heading? By excluding any sort of DCC compatibility, you're eliminating a large part of the market from your customer pool. Such as me. I don't have a great deal invested in a system, but I have a considerable amount invested in sound and silent decoders. What I have is easy to use, and it works fine.
Incorrect. You cannot play say game A for Playstation on X box or vice versa. This is a commonmisconception.
For music? Same answer as above. You buy Beatles White album on CD, you cant play it on your MP player.
So if I overlayed DCC to keep guys like yourself interested would it make much of a difference?
Noobs are the future.
Propriety systems have not done well simply because they do not offer enough benefits per $ invested.
Not everyone wants what their mates have, some people like to have what THEY want regardless of what their buddies use.
Having said I repeat that I do not expect many sales from guys entrenched in DCC. Jusy like in slot cars I do not expect sales to guys who are entrenched in their propriety system. Isnt that fair enough?
When CDs came out I could play CDs on my dads record player? No! LOL did that stop anyone from buying CDs? NOOOOO!
Did CDS stop anyone from buying MP4?
Notice how a MP4 player is cheaper than a CD player.Notice how a CD player is cheaper than a turntable.? Remember the cost analysis I just gave? Ring a bell? Price, functionality, future upgradability. Thats the future and old technology remains sure, but in tiny numbers. The future moves on regardless of what individuals feel. Wireless WILL happen. In fact its almost here
I already have hundreds of sales from slot car enthusiasts which are in the same boat. They simply dont care about existing propriety systems (obviously). They like what they see. They see the huge benefits over existing systems and think it offers them the best bang for buck, hence the success of Scorpius thus far. Trains will be no different.
Sorry I just dont buy the compatibility story
In fact it was all the talk on slot car forums 2-3 years back. Now its seldom mentioned.
(Sorry son you cant have that Playstation game because its not compatible to XBox)......simply doesnt happen.
Are any of the failed proprietry systems even remotely similar to Scorpius? No, no where near.
Once again thanks for your input, much appreciated.
Rick
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No but you can buy the same game for X Box or PS3 or Wii. Game manufacturers are marketing their games on all formats.
Likewise music. No you can't play a CD on an MP4 player, but you can buy the music in either CD or MP4 formats. The music industry is making sure they offer their wares in all current formats.
Why do you think MTH offers limited DCC compatibility in their locomotives, and has recently begun offering DCC ready versions of same? They would not have done so if it made no difference. It obviously does, or they wouldn't have done it. Why not do it if it is possible? Why cut yourself off from possible sales?
I already have hundreds of sales from slot car enthusiasts which are in the same boat. They simply dont care about existing propriety systems (obviously). They like what they see. They see the huge benefits over existing systems and think it offers them the best bang for buck, hence the success of Scorpius thus far. Trains will be no different.
Sorry I just dont buy the compatibility story
That's your choice, but you might want to be careful about lumping slot cars and model railroading together too quickly. They are quite different. there are different objects to the game. You have not addressed sound, or how the rest of the manufacturers will address your system. DCC is fully supported by locomotive manufacturers. If Scorpius users have to buy basic locos and install your hardware, you'll lose the RTR with sound segment, and it is HUGE and still growing! This is all stuff we'd like to hear about
LOL! You don't have any kids do you? It certainly does happen. "No problem son, we'll just replace your entire game system and all your games because of this one new game." Now that's what's not likely to happen
any of the failed proprietry systems even remotely similar to Scorpius? No, no where near.
Once again thanks for your input, much appreciated.
Rick
Loco Linc comes to mind. In any case, not meaning to beat you up, but this whole thread has the feel of someone who, however well intentioned, still has quite a bit to learn about this hobby. You seem in a big hurry to lump trains in with slot cars. Your presentation has a long way to go. There are still tons of unanswered questions.
DC ran trains for decades before DCC. DCC is still advancing, and is a long way from being at it's peak. Each segment still makes allowances for the other. Think long and hard about isolating your system from everything else.
injectorman
Member
The point of this analogy is compatibility. I cannot run product A bought for Brand X and that same product runs on Brand Z. And this is exactly my point, the public obviously buys each of the big 3's game consoles.
Why do you think MTH offers limited DCC compatibility in their locomotives, and has recently begun offering DCC ready versions of same? They would not have done so if it made no difference. It obviously does, or they wouldn't have done it. Why not do it if it is possible? Why cut yourself off from possible sales?
Good question. Hmm not so sure. Just because one manufacturer does something means it was the best thing to do.
Why? Because if I add all the DCC protocols I will be overlaying a heap of complexity.
But I havent discounted it totally. Just need convincing
Understand are completely different in some aspects. I also see however the application of a 100% wireless system (architecture) 100% identical.
I understand demands in almost every other aspect in far greater in trains than slot cars.
Sound would be a variation on light board. We would use a sound chip with wirelessly upgradeable sound library.
LOL! You don't have any kids do you? It certainly does happen. "No problem son, we'll just replace your entire game system and all your games because of this one new game." Now that's what's not likely to happen
Ohh yes I do
Boy 10, girl 11, both have DS, Playstation and Wii, no X box. Thats how I know
Hey beat me up I love it
True, a long way to go and a lot of questions. A lot of answers too
Thats why Im here to see your reaction and to see the best way to implement this already existing architecture in a way that suits you guys.
The architecture is here I dont think there is any argument here?
And I have a reasonable understanding of the end requirements you guys need. Versatility of how the loco operates, consists, traction control, braking control, lights, sound, signals, accessories, configuring locos, power requirements, turnout requirements, detection, auto reversers. But no, in all respect I do not know as much as you hard core enthusiasts that one day soon I can see myself becoming
And Im answering questions as fast as they are being asked so please keep shootin' those questions.
And yes there is a lot of work to do.
The point of this thread is to simply show proof of concept and I guess a Youtube video is due
[/QUOTE]
DC ran trains for decades before DCC. DCC is still advancing, and is a long way from being at it's peak. Each segment still makes allowances for the other. Think long and hard about isolating your system from everything else.[/QUOTE]
I am listening. But after 25 years development seems slow and each manufacturer out on their own tangent.
DC will always be here.
DCC will always be here.
Wireless will be here too.
Its a big market, much bigger than slot cars and newbies everyday.
We have already made a DCC overlay for Scorpius' slot car application believe it or not, in fact this was back in late 2006. So we actually already have the protocols written and tested with 100% perfect results. But these are only for throttle, change lanes and braking. The rest would need to be written.
I just need to be convinced still as it would be a huge task to offer the program needed to be able to config the locos.
Rick
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RW&C
N Scale with Stone Tools
It sounds like really cool technology, but I'll be surprised if your high hopes for it pan out.
Say I'm a noob. (Well, more of a noob.) I walk into a hobby shop, pick up a few engines I like the looks of, and ask the guy behind the counter about control systems. He tells me about DC and hooking up power districts, and I figure, eh, too complex. Then he tells me about DCC, points out that one or two of the locos I've picked up have DCC pre-installed, and mentions how easy it is to set up, the many manufacturers who make DCC compatible equipment, and the rack of DCC guides, manuals, and support info. Then he mentions your Scorpius system, with the 2.4 gig radio signals, the engines recognizing turnouts, and the laptop attachment. Oh, and nothing comes with it pre-installed, so I'll have to do all the fiddly solder work on my own. Even if your system is more powerful, chances are I'll go DCC.
DCC is pretty dominant at the moment. To unseat an industry standard you need something that's hugely better. You're clearly sold on Scorpius, but you need to convince the modeling community. (Remember, the noob will probably come to a forum, or ask the dude in the hobby shop, before buying a system.)
That said, I'd love to see a demo vid. It sounds like a very cool system. I just don't see it selling.
Say I'm a noob. (Well, more of a noob.) I walk into a hobby shop, pick up a few engines I like the looks of, and ask the guy behind the counter about control systems. He tells me about DC and hooking up power districts, and I figure, eh, too complex. Then he tells me about DCC, points out that one or two of the locos I've picked up have DCC pre-installed, and mentions how easy it is to set up, the many manufacturers who make DCC compatible equipment, and the rack of DCC guides, manuals, and support info. Then he mentions your Scorpius system, with the 2.4 gig radio signals, the engines recognizing turnouts, and the laptop attachment. Oh, and nothing comes with it pre-installed, so I'll have to do all the fiddly solder work on my own. Even if your system is more powerful, chances are I'll go DCC.
DCC is pretty dominant at the moment. To unseat an industry standard you need something that's hugely better. You're clearly sold on Scorpius, but you need to convince the modeling community. (Remember, the noob will probably come to a forum, or ask the dude in the hobby shop, before buying a system.)
That said, I'd love to see a demo vid. It sounds like a very cool system. I just don't see it selling.
injectorman
Member
Thats a good point and nothing I can do about. Im guessing everyone here can install a decoder? And I know if you go for DCC locos (from the factory) your choice is severely limited. Or I could offer a fitting service? Or perhaps even the dealer, I know some dealers do this now for a reasonable fee.
It would have to of course start off as an alternative solution like a Mac is to a PC. Mac started off with 1% of the market and now have 10% of the market and growing. Now the two are sort of fusing together with dual operating systems available. ie you can put Windows on a Mac.
You see it not selling, I see it as I see it impossible some people will not want it
The question is how many.
I guess a lot of DC enthusiasts said DCC will never succeed, am I correct? Im going to assume so because thats human nature.
So currently we have the DC community and DCC community, one growing and one diminishing. I see the same thing happening with wireless (perhaps even with DCC protocols) doing the same thing to DCC. It may be the standard but its a debacle. Like why is Loconet even needed? I know the reason....lack of data transfer.... the solution is wireless, as DCC cant handle it.
Surely any system needing essentially TWO operating systems is crying out for a huge technical upgrade obviously. And this second operating (control bus) system is generally (or totally?) incompatible across most (all?) brands?
And people who think another "wireless standard' cant start up is dreaming
Its actually a brave person who thinks wireless is not going to be incorporated into trains more and more as time goes on.
How long did it take for DCC to finally be 51% of the market and tip the balance? 15 years? It will take wireless probably around the same time or more in my opinion. So I agree in terms of Scorpius cannot be an overnight standard. DCC was a 'standard' (for digital) even though DC was still 80% of
enthusiasts at one stage. So too can Scorpius be the standard for 100% 'wireless trains' until an industry standard is agreed on.
a) Im willing to donate my protocols to the industry as did Lenz.
b) Scorpius is FULLY upgradeable firmware wise so if there was ever a protocol change you can do so in minutes or less per component free online and wirelessly!
Also lets assume just for now that DCC is included in the protocols. Id be interested to where the conversation heads next IF DCC is added.
(Actually our version had auto detection, it automatically senses DCC packets on the rails and switches automatically to DCC.) So a dual purpose Scorpius/DCC decoder is possible and no configuring, just place on rails and use.
Lets look towards the benefit of no seperate control bus needed too.
Rick
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