Winterquarters/Car Shops for circus and showtrains
- Thread starter enjineerbill
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enjineerbill
Avid People Watcher
You most likely did see it come by. While the train was routed to just north and west of Chicago in the mid 80's, the parade itself has always been held in Milwaukee. The museum train was purchased by the Schlitz brewing company and donated to the museum as it sponsored the parade from 1963 to 1973. For the first 2 years, '63 and '64, the wagons rode on flatbed trucks to Milwaukee. The train did not run for 12 years (1985) awaiting a new sponsor. Some of the wagons have been presented in a Chicago parade but were trucked there for it. This past Thanksgiving Macy's had one of the wagons in it's parade as well.
The train has been discontinued due to lack of funds and the equipment being so worn out. New flats have been donated to the museum from TrailerTrain, but they need to have wood decks installed and the cost is too much at this time.
I remember a trip where the CNW #1385 was to pull it from Baraboo to Milwaukee using the Chicago route; We moved 15 feet and something failed, the engine was cut-off and we used diesels to get to Janesville, Wisconsin, where we layed over and the 1385 was repaired and met us by the time we awoke the next morning. CNW 1385 then pulled us the rest of the journey through northern Chicago and on to Milwaukee....What a gal!!
Johnny
eric2448
Member
This thread is great! This has given me tons of ideas on what to make of the train Im working on, Thanks Johnny! And I never knew there was such a color war re: Ringling Red. I used Soo Line Red on my coaches, Im not going for 100% historically detailed and accurate, just having fun with what I can make.
enjineerbill
Avid People Watcher
Eric,
I'm quite sure that Soo red is just as good as anything else. Basically through all the discussions I have been around, it all boils down to agreeing that it is general just a dark shade of red. I have seen CMB(circus model builders) members who have used it on their equipment very convincing results.
What year are you modeling? 1944-45? Are you using the Walther's kits as coaches? Love to see your work sometime...
Johnny
enjineerbill
Avid People Watcher
Procrastination: see 'Johnny'
Well, we have already discussed one type of show car in a previous post, and that kind of opens the door to feeding my procrastination at the moment. Actually the lack of modeling can be blamed on the very mild winter we had in Wisconsin. Whew. I do wonder what price we may pay for it down the road. I'm getting a lot done around the house that requires attention and adding some new things along the way.
In the stolen moments between outdoor tasks, I once again re-arranged the structures on my HO diorama. I did find a way to incorporate the building I wanted from the corner, and into the main shop complex on the south end of the diorama. I will post pics in the next post or two.
Meantime, let's take a look at just some examples of different cars. We talked about advertising cars traveling ahead of the show, so we'll cover the train of a typical circus from head end to the coaches. In a usual arrangement of cars on a circus train, they went from locomotive or head end, to the caboose. In that order they were, stock(s), flats, and then the coaches and a caboose. The pictures in this post DO NOT BELONG TO ME. They were gathered from images on public sites and credit goes to original poster. They are used by me with the sole purpose of demonstration here.
Stock cars
There are two classes of stock cars for circus use, Elephant and Lead stock cars. These cars can be easily identified by exterior differences.
Now the peanut pusher above is hanging out in the wrong neighborhood. He's standing in front of what is a 72ft stock or lead-stock car. This is due to the large open, yet screened, slats in the top portion of the car. Here is another example of a horse car. Keep in mind that other types of lead-stock such as, camels, zebra, llamas, unicorns and pushme-pullyou's were carried in this type of car as well.
In the background of the above pic, to the left, you see what the difference between a stock and an elephant car is. The most noticeable being the obvious height difference. But the main spotting feature of an elephant car is the lack of large ventilation in the car sides. You see, even though Mr. Tough elephant is big and strong, he can easily catch cold. I know, hard to believe with a nose like that, right? But it is true and the circus's made the cars with this in mind.
And sometimes, in the case of smaller shows, the cars were built combined. I see these cars as great modeling opportunities.
So there you are, the basic differences, between stock cars on a circus. Typical cars you would see if hanging around the type of shops I am modeling. And if all keeps progressing, you will.
See you down the road.....
Johnny
Well, we have already discussed one type of show car in a previous post, and that kind of opens the door to feeding my procrastination at the moment. Actually the lack of modeling can be blamed on the very mild winter we had in Wisconsin. Whew. I do wonder what price we may pay for it down the road. I'm getting a lot done around the house that requires attention and adding some new things along the way.
In the stolen moments between outdoor tasks, I once again re-arranged the structures on my HO diorama. I did find a way to incorporate the building I wanted from the corner, and into the main shop complex on the south end of the diorama. I will post pics in the next post or two.
Meantime, let's take a look at just some examples of different cars. We talked about advertising cars traveling ahead of the show, so we'll cover the train of a typical circus from head end to the coaches. In a usual arrangement of cars on a circus train, they went from locomotive or head end, to the caboose. In that order they were, stock(s), flats, and then the coaches and a caboose. The pictures in this post DO NOT BELONG TO ME. They were gathered from images on public sites and credit goes to original poster. They are used by me with the sole purpose of demonstration here.
Stock cars
There are two classes of stock cars for circus use, Elephant and Lead stock cars. These cars can be easily identified by exterior differences.
Now the peanut pusher above is hanging out in the wrong neighborhood. He's standing in front of what is a 72ft stock or lead-stock car. This is due to the large open, yet screened, slats in the top portion of the car. Here is another example of a horse car. Keep in mind that other types of lead-stock such as, camels, zebra, llamas, unicorns and pushme-pullyou's were carried in this type of car as well.
In the background of the above pic, to the left, you see what the difference between a stock and an elephant car is. The most noticeable being the obvious height difference. But the main spotting feature of an elephant car is the lack of large ventilation in the car sides. You see, even though Mr. Tough elephant is big and strong, he can easily catch cold. I know, hard to believe with a nose like that, right? But it is true and the circus's made the cars with this in mind.
And sometimes, in the case of smaller shows, the cars were built combined. I see these cars as great modeling opportunities.
So there you are, the basic differences, between stock cars on a circus. Typical cars you would see if hanging around the type of shops I am modeling. And if all keeps progressing, you will.
See you down the road.....
Johnny
eric2448
Member
I wouldnt say that Im sticking to any particular year. Im just picking elements I like and putting them together. I like the look of heavyweight cars so thats where it all started. I got a good deal on a string of the newer super detailed Walthers RTR Heavywieghts (now out of production) and tore them completely apart to paint them. I gave Sparkling Star Models a try with some flats and stocks. Good quality cars, but I didnt take enough time to prep these and the paint never dried properly, so Im in the process of prepping them again. Ill be using mostly Walthers wagons to fill up the flats. I did pick up a nice halftrack I hope to put together as a stake driver someday. Heres a few pics that I took a while back:
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/album.php?albumid=208
enjineerbill
Avid People Watcher
Thanks for the link to pics. Gonna paint the pain-in-the-@$$ red sill stripe on the stock car(s)??
Also fully understand your approach to building the train. I have never completed a railroad show. Usually I get side tracked by something or other. But it is fun modeling this type of thing, given the many challenging variations of equipment. Maybe this will be the one.....
Found this on Bob Cline's blog. Posted with credit to original photographer. For those wondering what a 'half-track' stake driver looked like.
Johnny
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enjineerbill
Avid People Watcher
Alright in this post will be the final placement of the structures for the scenes. Now by taking pictures of these in this stage I can begin to decide what needs to make the photo more convincing. Details, detail painting, weathering and other 'fixing up' of the overall scene so when I take pictures of the progress of rail equipment being worked on and painted, I will have a realistic place to photograph the models. Kind of a working shops in miniature.
I used my el cheapo camera and stacking program to get better depth of field. But the shots are very revealing and necessary for me to achieve this type of look;
So here are the placement of the structures:
This building had been placed in a corner and served a spur. I wanted it for the unique shape for circus use. It is a place where the wardrobe dept get's materials and has sewing stations to repair everything from shoes to the tent sections. Here is the new final position.
In it's old spot, a kitbashed tower will serve as a control point for the shortline entering the MadCow right of way.
This is the line up looking down the street. Rail yards and shops on right, with animal dept. across street on left. From front to back; elephant barn, small animals, harness and tack. Across the tracks on left is another barn for horses. Looking forward to using forced perspective in developing this scene.
Circus offices on right in yellow house.
I used my el cheapo camera and stacking program to get better depth of field. But the shots are very revealing and necessary for me to achieve this type of look;
So here are the placement of the structures:
This building had been placed in a corner and served a spur. I wanted it for the unique shape for circus use. It is a place where the wardrobe dept get's materials and has sewing stations to repair everything from shoes to the tent sections. Here is the new final position.
In it's old spot, a kitbashed tower will serve as a control point for the shortline entering the MadCow right of way.
This is the line up looking down the street. Rail yards and shops on right, with animal dept. across street on left. From front to back; elephant barn, small animals, harness and tack. Across the tracks on left is another barn for horses. Looking forward to using forced perspective in developing this scene.
Circus offices on right in yellow house.
eric2448
Member
Yes, I plan on attempting to paint the red stripes at the bottom of the stocks. I found a nice set of brushes I think will do the trick, I just have to tell myself to be patient for a better result. I read once that Sparkling models had nice wagon kits. Im using their HO scale rail cars. I believe the story goes that they bought the molds from Walthers, the cars have the same Made in Denmark stamp that the American Circus Series cars had. Theyre ok, had to glue at least one grab iron on per car because of the loose packaging. So far Ive got 2 stocks, 7 flats, 5 heavyweights and just about enough wagons and tractors to fill the flats. I remember all the photos of the last train you started, looked almost complete minus the decals. I look forward to seeing the progress of your current venture.
Eric
enjineerbill
Avid People Watcher
Hi Eric
I didn't know that about the flats coming from Sparkling Star. Interesting, if you don't mind my asking, what is the cost for one of them? I see on ebay where they can get up to $30.00 per American Series Flats depending on demand.
I meant to ask you if you had seen my other builds. Might find something you like or use, or, could make better. I know I get a ton of ideas from picking the brains of circus modelers.
I converted a couple of those cheap Life-Like circus cage wagons into some parade wagons with the yellow one still being a cage wagon, just has travel panels in place.
During part of the conversion and comparative views;
The wagon on the left is an untouched piece from LL. On the right the wagon has been modified and improved with a modern type undergear and rubber tires.
Views with original factory piece in middle.
It was kinda fun going through some of those old builds. I also did a Life-Like dog wagon into elephant props. The factory dog wagon is in the middle. On the right a modified wagon with see through cages and other updates. On the left, converted to a wagon for hauling elephant props and equipment.
This how the wagon looked when I built the yellow show. Like most circus owners, I was on a kick of some sort and mine was yellow at the time.
If you are into collecting, those old Life-Like circus things can fetch a pretty penny. If I remember, there were cage wagons, dog wagon, a beautiful five graces bandwagon, some tractors painted in rainbow of colors, and a circus combine car. Might have been an engine or some other brightly painted car, not sure. In any event at one time or another, in my younger years, I had them all. Sigh.
HOexplorer
Well-Known Member
Hey, this is a really great collection of circus stuff. Good job and thanks for sharing. Jim
enjineerbill
Avid People Watcher
Well now that I got a lil off track, let's see if I can't get things right side up,
credit to original poster.
Guess not. We were talking about the different kinds of cars that would see service in shops such as these. While rail cars are the prevalent subjects you would also see gas powered vehicles and other circus equipment. For now we'll stick to railroad stuff. We started at the head end of a typical circus train with the different types of stock cars. Then came the flats.
In the above photo, wagons from a wrecked train have been piled onto a 'warren' type flatcar. These flats manufactured by the warren tank company, saw use on many circuses and carnivals over the years. Among surviving flats, there are still a number of them in existence. The Circus World Museum has a number of them, including two that have original paint for RBBB.
This is a warren flat used by the Foley and Burke Carnival as it arrived in Baraboo, Wisconsin after being donated. Credit to original poster.
Another popular type of flat was the Mt. Vernon. It can be identified by the drop sides in a fishbelly fashion. Again, CWM in Baraboo, has a number of these flats. Here is one of two that were used in the wagon loading/unloading demonstrations at the CWM in Baraboo.
The circus would often recycle other cars that were damaged or no longer needed. A case in point would be this photo of the Foley and Burke shows flats. In the foreground is a warren type and coupled behind is a shopped flat made from cutting down a stock car. Credit to Bob Cline photo.
Shows would also add storage compartments and strengthen the cars. Here is an example on a museum flat rolling through Madison on the annual journey.
Well, the examples go on and on with flats. Next we will move on to the rear end of a circus and carnival train with coaches.
Guess not. We were talking about the different kinds of cars that would see service in shops such as these. While rail cars are the prevalent subjects you would also see gas powered vehicles and other circus equipment. For now we'll stick to railroad stuff. We started at the head end of a typical circus train with the different types of stock cars. Then came the flats.
In the above photo, wagons from a wrecked train have been piled onto a 'warren' type flatcar. These flats manufactured by the warren tank company, saw use on many circuses and carnivals over the years. Among surviving flats, there are still a number of them in existence. The Circus World Museum has a number of them, including two that have original paint for RBBB.
This is a warren flat used by the Foley and Burke Carnival as it arrived in Baraboo, Wisconsin after being donated. Credit to original poster.
Another popular type of flat was the Mt. Vernon. It can be identified by the drop sides in a fishbelly fashion. Again, CWM in Baraboo, has a number of these flats. Here is one of two that were used in the wagon loading/unloading demonstrations at the CWM in Baraboo.
The circus would often recycle other cars that were damaged or no longer needed. A case in point would be this photo of the Foley and Burke shows flats. In the foreground is a warren type and coupled behind is a shopped flat made from cutting down a stock car. Credit to Bob Cline photo.
Shows would also add storage compartments and strengthen the cars. Here is an example on a museum flat rolling through Madison on the annual journey.
Well, the examples go on and on with flats. Next we will move on to the rear end of a circus and carnival train with coaches.
enjineerbill
Avid People Watcher
Hey, this is a really great collection of circus stuff. Good job and thanks for sharing. Jim
More than welcome Jim. Ya know, in years gone by, more than one circus loaded it's equipment onto narrow gauge for shows where standard gauge wasn't available. Food for thought? lol.
eric2448
Member
Heres their website: http://www.sparklingstarmodels.com/HO-Railroad-Cars/products/14/
The kits are a little over priced in my opinion, but it seems like their operation and market they serve is small. I spent a few hours trying to strip a couple of Walthers flats of their paint, so to me, their undecorated cars are somewhat worth it compared to the price for a set of cars you plan on stripping down anyways.
I remember seeing those wagons you did a while back, they look great! I have 2 of them somewhere with a couple of the flats. Wagons are going for a premium on ebay right now, I couldnt get much of a better deal at the last train show I went to either. Seems like ebay sets the price for circus equipment now a days. Only wagon Ive been trying to get my hands on that I havent been able to is the stake driver. That has to be the most in demand wagon next to the plank wagon and parade wagons.
Not to throw the thread but heres a couple of things I found recently when looking for ideas:
http://circusmodelbuilders.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Issue-3-Pages-20-25.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVzz9W6Ei4k
enjineerbill
Avid People Watcher
Eric,
As long as it adds to the thread, feel free to share. Thanks for posting the links above. The more contributors, the more we'll all learn or see something new.
The youtube vid is very cool. Not many serious model builders can do a beautiful train and get it to run. Most circus modelers are not model railroaders(yes, there are some, myself included). They usually build static displays on fixed dioramas. So the Sparks train is indeed unique.
Ya know, the plastic Walthers flats are molded in the colors so you won't get any paint off. You can strip the titles off though. During my 'mellow yellow' period. 22 Walthers flats got their titles stripped, got a bath in alcohol, primed and ole' yeller was applied. I think they turned out nice. Sorry for the passenger cars in foreground, they were for a client(Reading work train).
BTW, all those flats plus 18 more are now bright silver for this project, told ya I recycle. lol
So yer looking for a stake driver? I'll search and see if I got any left. Last one I built sold on evilbay for, well, I'm happy.
A lil backround on the yellow show. Fictitious. 35 car show with 22 flats, 8 sleepers, 3 head end stock, 1 elephant and 1 advance car. Show was on rail for a decade and had just received a great deal on WWII ex military vehicles. Becoming a big, modernized competitor to the boys from Baraboo.
Thanks for sharing Eric2448.
enjineerbill
Avid People Watcher
If your in the northeast U.S. and your covered w/snow, I feel your pain.
As I was going through things in files I didn't bother to give you a look at what the modern types of circus cars looked like. Perhaps, it might spark an interest to model one of them.
In one of my 'Instamatic' eras of photography, I caught the RBBB train Chicago in the very early 1980's. Here is how a modern elephant car looked then. Notice the small vents at the top. The main spotting feature for this type of car.
Of course, this would be the other.
Close up of vents for modeling use. Most likely, the larger window type opening is for ventilation when car is idle.
Horse and lead stock cars would have this look. These shots were taken in the 1990's.
As I was going through things in files I didn't bother to give you a look at what the modern types of circus cars looked like. Perhaps, it might spark an interest to model one of them.
In one of my 'Instamatic' eras of photography, I caught the RBBB train Chicago in the very early 1980's. Here is how a modern elephant car looked then. Notice the small vents at the top. The main spotting feature for this type of car.
Of course, this would be the other.
Close up of vents for modeling use. Most likely, the larger window type opening is for ventilation when car is idle.
Horse and lead stock cars would have this look. These shots were taken in the 1990's.
eric2448
Member
HAHA I would have felt dumb if I tried to strip down one of the Great Circus Train flats. One of the old cars I have is missing its grab iron steps and after looking at it I realized the plastic was the same color as the car. Thats cool that they did that and it looks like, when done correctly like you did, they turn out great when painted. I especially like your choice of color for the wood deck. I tried stripping down a set of Strates flats. It appeared that the American Circus Series flats were all grey plastic under the paint.
What kind of primer did you use when you painted your flats?
enjineerbill
Avid People Watcher
After a good alcohol bath and a scrub and rinse, I sprayed floquil grey primer followed by 3 coats of reefer yellow, although the yellow was acrylic. You are correct, the ACS flats were a primer grey if purchased undec.
enjineerbill
Avid People Watcher
Coaches~~
Last, but not always. The coaches on showtrains are usually comprised of sleepers. For they are not used for luxury, but rather for a place to crash. Traveling life is not an easy one and most workers were provided with minimal accommodations on the train. Show owners worked to keep the number of coaches on their trains to the bare minimum. Rare was the performer who got some sort of suite in a car. But some did, and some even got almost half a car if they were topn names like Lillian Leitzel or the Wallendas. There are so many examples of these types of cars that I could spend a week posting them here.
WAIT! Come back! I won't do that. But I will post some examples I have of the living quarters for showfolk.
We'll start with a shot at the Ringling Bros. winterquarters in Baraboo, WI.. This shot is looking south to north when the show had been on rails for but a few years. The baggage car on the second track is most likely one of advertising cars. The cars on the closest track are coaches. These cars had the Ringling Bros. World's Greatest Shows on the titleboards.
credit to original photographer:
This is most likely a 'pie-car'. These were diners for circus employees only. A place open the odd hours that workers need to catch a quick bite before or after the tented cookhouse was closed. Also sold in the pie-car was toiletries and other on the road necessities employees needed. Pretty smart show owners could keep most of the wages earned by selling these items after marking them up of course.
credit to original photographer:
If you model the museum train, these heavyweights were offered by Walthers. They are brightly painted Rivarrosi type cars.
Here is an example of a private car.
credit to original photographer:
And a typical show coach.
credit to original photographer:
And an observation. These were almost always for owners and general managers of the show.
credit to original photographer:
Last, but not always. The coaches on showtrains are usually comprised of sleepers. For they are not used for luxury, but rather for a place to crash. Traveling life is not an easy one and most workers were provided with minimal accommodations on the train. Show owners worked to keep the number of coaches on their trains to the bare minimum. Rare was the performer who got some sort of suite in a car. But some did, and some even got almost half a car if they were topn names like Lillian Leitzel or the Wallendas. There are so many examples of these types of cars that I could spend a week posting them here.
WAIT! Come back! I won't do that. But I will post some examples I have of the living quarters for showfolk.
We'll start with a shot at the Ringling Bros. winterquarters in Baraboo, WI.. This shot is looking south to north when the show had been on rails for but a few years. The baggage car on the second track is most likely one of advertising cars. The cars on the closest track are coaches. These cars had the Ringling Bros. World's Greatest Shows on the titleboards.
credit to original photographer:
This is most likely a 'pie-car'. These were diners for circus employees only. A place open the odd hours that workers need to catch a quick bite before or after the tented cookhouse was closed. Also sold in the pie-car was toiletries and other on the road necessities employees needed. Pretty smart show owners could keep most of the wages earned by selling these items after marking them up of course.
credit to original photographer:
If you model the museum train, these heavyweights were offered by Walthers. They are brightly painted Rivarrosi type cars.
Here is an example of a private car.
credit to original photographer:
And a typical show coach.
credit to original photographer:
And an observation. These were almost always for owners and general managers of the show.
credit to original photographer:
