Using turnout to control siding in DC


Raincoat2

Well-Known Member
Hi, everyone - a newbie question for you: I model HO scale in DC (Not DCC). I run usually just two trains at a time on one controller. I'm adding a new section to the layout and am including a passing siding. My question is how can I use the turnouts for that siding to allow a train to park there while another goes by on the mainline? Is it a matter of using Peco insulfrog or electrofrog turnouts? If so, how? Is it a matter of insulating certain rails if I use Atlas switches? Any help is so welcome. Thanks in advance.
 
Good question Johnny, potentially complex. Any siding regardless of switch brand, can be isolated by using insulated rail joiners at each end in your power rail for the siding (as opposed to the common rail). You would need to add a power feeder to the siding with an independent off/on switch. This can be done with an Atlas Selector or with any other of off/on switch.
As far as "power-routing", using the switch itself to route power to the siding, that's the complex part. I believe that Insulfrogs will do that , but I may be wrong and it may be Electrofrogs. I have neither so I cannot comment directly.
Google "power-routing turnouts" and it will bring up many articles etc.

Willie
 
Willie - thanks for the info. I want to avoid using an independent off/on switch if I can - I'd like to be able to control it from the control console.
 
Johnny - I do not run multiple trains at one time on a regular basis even though I do have two throttles. When the grand kids come over and want to run trains, I'll set the main line to run through the staging tracks and I might do some switching on one of the yards.

Running DC only, I have a number of double throw, double pole switches on control panels. My turnouts are either hand laid or are Shinohara. Both turnouts use the points for routing power. I can park a locomotive in an industrial siding, and once the turnout is thrown the locomotive will have no power and just sit there. I do have a couple of passing sidings and yard leads that have block controls controlled by the DT/DP switches on the control panel. I can stop one train, turn off the power and throw the turnouts to lat another train pass on a parallel track and once the main line is clear, turn on the power, throw the turnout and let the trai move on.

Operating with one controller does make things a bit more difficult.
 
Willie - thanks for the info. I want to avoid using an independent off/on switch if I can - I'd like to be able to control it from the control console.
Using an Atlas Selector #215 can be done from a control console. One Selector can can control the on/off power to four different electrically isolated sections of track. It can have input from two different power packs, thus allowing independent control on two different lines. It requires wiring from the Selector to each section, instead of everything from a main buss. One could also use an Atlas Connector #205, which controls three blocks, but only has input from one power pack.

Willie

PS - I tried to send you a PM (private message) and your in box is full.
 
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Using an Atlas Selector #215 can be done from a control console. One Selector can can control the on/off power to four different electrically isolated sections of track. It can have input from two different power packs, thus allowing independent control on two different lines. It requires wiring from the Selector to each section, instead of everything from a main buss. One could also use an Atlas Connector #205, which controls three blocks, but only has input from one power pack.

Willie

PS - I tried to send you a PM (private message) and your in box is full.

Willie - I deleted messages in my inbox and saw your message. I responded to it. Hope it went through.
 
Hi, everyone - a newbie question for you: I model HO scale in DC (Not DCC). I run usually just two trains at a time on one controller. I'm adding a new section to the layout and am including a passing siding. My question is how can I use the turnouts for that siding to allow a train to park there while another goes by on the mainline? Is it a matter of using Peco insulfrog or electrofrog turnouts? If so, how? Is it a matter of insulating certain rails if I use Atlas switches? Any help is so welcome. Thanks in advance.
Are the main/passing siding part of a continuous oval or some sort of complete loop, and do you have the layout broken up in to blocks, or just one large layout? The next question is what type of turnouts are you using? If PECO's you can use either Insulfrogs or Electrofrogs. The rule with these is to run electric feed wires connected to the point end of any turnout. Also, I would NOT use "common rail" wiring, but would run two wires from the power pack/controller to each block of the layout. It does double the number of wires, but you will run into far fewer problems with short circuits. For convention sake, and regardless of the actual direction the track runs relative to the real world, the tracks on model railroads always run East and West. Therefore, one rail is the North rail, and the other is the South rail.

Now, are you running the two trains in the same direction or opposite each other? It doesn't make that much difference, but you might find it convenient do the following: Wire feeder wires to the point end of the turnout where the trains will enter the main or siding (depending on which way the points are thrown. Place insulated track connectors in all four rails on the frog end of the exit turnout. Wire jumper wires from the point end of the entrance turnout rails to the point end of the exit turnout rails (unless the main on the other end of the exit turnout is a separate block, in which case run the power wires from the block control switch to the point side of the exit turnout. You can run trains that run in opposite directions with this arrangement. If the "East" end turnout is aligned for the main, and the West end turnout is aligned for the siding, the train going into the siding will stop before it enters the siding. The train proceeding on the main should stop when it gets to the West turnout. The problem here is that if the insulators are real close to the West turnout, the train might run through the fouling point. You could avoid this by positioning the insulators a little distance from the frog, if you have the room to get the train on the main entirely on the track around the siding. Same thing if the turnouts are aligned in opposite directions.

If you are going to run the trains in opposite directions, then you might want to place the insulators in the North and South rails at the frog end of the exiting turnout (with the insulators positioned sufficiently away from the turnout's fouling point). If you are using two controllers, one for each train, you can throw the turnout for one train to the siding, run the train onto the siding while the other train runs into the main. Stop either or both trains, and throw the turnout for the exit of the train that has superior rights on the main, then have it proceed on, while the other train remains on the siding. The turnouts will control power to the frog end of the track. (Some people don't like to depend on the rail contacts between the points and the stock rails, using additional contacts on the switch machines to control power. I haven't had any problems with PECO turnouts' contacts, but that will be up to you.)

I wish I had the capability to diagram this for you, but don't have it. Perhaps someone else can post a diagram. Best of luck.
 
Trailrider - thanks for the detailed description. I THINK I follow most of it :) I'll answer a few of your questions, but first this caveat: this is my first layout so it is basically one medium-sized layout, in DC, and I wanted to keep it non-complicated. But I like the fun of running a couple of trains simultaneously from time to time off a single controller. Both engines are from the same company and run at the same speed, so little chance of them ramming each other - just have to make sure they don't arrive at a turnout at the same time.

On one part of the layout the trains run opposite one another, but on most of the layout they run in the same direction. That is true for this area where I want to put the passing siding. So the idea is to park a train on the siding to let the other one pass by in the same direction. I have both Peco and Atlas turnouts on the layout. The Pecos, of course, have a much tighter "snap" to them to keep them in place when you throw them, while the Atlas turnouts are a little loose, even when thrown electrically by remote control. Your description of where to place the insulating rail joiners is helpful. Thanks.
 
As they come from the factory, Atlas turnouts won't give directional power routing. But they can be made to do so by cutting the connection between the stock and closure rails. As you stated, they are a bit on the loose side, so you may not get good contact between the stock rails and the points. The Mark IV's can have the frogs power-routed, but that can be somewhat of a hassle to do. I do use them where the divergent curve need to be of a fairly tight radius. I like PECO's, but don't particularly care for their switch machines. I have used the old twin-coil switch machines like Kemtrons and several others, including Tortise's. For those positive throw switch machines, I remove the snap springs built into the PECO's. For manual actuation, I leave them in. Best of luck!
 
Trailrider - Again, thanks. Between you and some information Willie has given I should be able to diagram this on paper and then try to tackle it for real.
 
I think in the end, you'll discover why block control is used for DC operation, especially on a small layout, and a controller for each train. Some methods are tried, true and well proven. Trying to reinvent the wheel creates more problems than it's worth.
 
Toot - agreed. Thanks for the encouragement.

I realise what I said wasn't really encouraging to the method you are trying to adopt, but trying to run 2 trains, operated by one controller, unless they are in a multi loco consist, is probably the greatest reason for DCC, where you can change back and forth between them, on the same controller. The track wiring is much simpler too, no need for blocks, or insulators unless you want a reversing loop. But enough on DCC. DC, (or AC) 3 rail, where the center rail is the power pick up and the outer rails both are returns, then things can be a lot simpler. As soon as you use 2 rail where each rail is either positive or negative, the fact that the direction of travel for your train is governed by which rail is which, complicates things. In the case of the layout you're planning, you would have to have both trains running in the same direction. One controller can only do this. There is simply no way, in the case of your layout that a train could come into that siding you're planning from the opposite direction, wait there for the opposing train to enter the straightaway part and either stop or carry on through under the control of that one controller, and then have the one in the siding, continue back onto the main going in the direction it was. If you really want to run two trains on a DC layout, you must use the block system with a controller for each train. Remember you're controlling your trains by which way the track power is causing the motor in the loco to turn.
 
Toot - Gotcha. My layout is small-medium size, HO scale, basically an out-and-back although it could become a point-to-point in the future. All lines run in one direction. I actually could run them in the opposite direction if I wanted to, but my trainyard is not a pull-through, it's a back-into, so running trains in the opposite direction makes no sense on this layout. The way the track is laid out, there is one place where two trains pass each other for a short distance. The passing siding that I want to put in is not necessary - I just wanted to add it and see how to power it so it actually works as a siding where one train can park while another passes by on the mainline in the same direction. I am going to try using Atlas turnouts and an Atlas Connector to deliver and turn off power to the siding. I'll insulate the siding and supply power to the track through the Connector which will be located at the control console. It seems like a simple solution.
 
DC (Not DCC). I run usually just two trains at a time on one controller. I'm adding a new section to the layout and am including a passing siding. My question is how can I use the turnouts for that siding to allow a train to park there while another goes by on the mainline? Is it a matter of using Peco insulfrog or electrofrog turnouts? If so, how? Is it a matter of insulating certain rails if I use Atlas switches?
Is the passing a single ended siding or a double ended? You talk about the train yard being a single ended but not the siding. I assume it is double ended. If the siding is really long there is an easy way to do this with Peco electrofrog ( or Shinohara, or any other turnout the frog gets it power from the points). On the siding put an insulated joiner 1/2 way through the siding on both "inside" tracks (both the tracks coming from the frog). One joiner on the main, one on the siding. When a turnout is thrown for a track it will be powered 1/2 way down. Note the reason I said it has to be a long siding is because if a loco passes that 1/2 way point and the other turnout is not aligned for its track, it will short circuit. So the train has to be able to fit into 1/2 the siding for another to pass.

One could also insulate the siding and power it by connecting an on/off latching relay to the turnout; because, after all, a turnout is after all just a switch.
 
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MASS MAD Respect to all that work and kudo's on top! AWESOME and excellent!.....Thank you for reminding me why I went DCC.
 
Is the passing a single ended siding or a double ended? You talk about the train yard being a single ended but not the siding. I assume it is double ended. If the siding is really long there is an easy way to do this with Peco electrofrog ( or Shinohara, or any other turnout the frog gets it power from the points). On the siding put an insulated joiner 1/2 way through the siding on both "inside" tracks (both the tracks coming from the frog). One joiner on the main, one on the siding. When a turnout is thrown for a track it will be powered 1/2 way down. Note the reason I said it has to be a long siding is because if a loco passes that 1/2 way point and the other turnout is not aligned for its track, it will short circuit. So the train has to be able to fit into 1/2 the siding for another to pass.

One could also insulate the siding and power it by connecting an on/off latching relay to the turnout; because, after all, a turnout is after all just a switch.

Iron - It's a double-ended siding, but it's not very long (due to space available) - a short train could fit there but it would need the whole length of the siding. So I'm going to try insulating the siding and running a separate buss to it that will be controlled by an Atlas Connector at the control console so the siding track will only have power when the Connector is thrown. Thanks for your suggestions.
 
I'm going to try insulating the siding and running a separate buss to it that will be controlled by an Atlas Connector at the control console so the siding track will only have power when the Connector is thrown.
That is probably the easiest and simplest way to accomplish what what you want, even though it isn't the method you had in mind.
 
That is probably the easiest and simplest way to accomplish what what you want, even though it isn't the method you had in mind.

Iron - that's what I love about this forum, especially as a new guy to the hobby - - I can ask all kinds of "dumb" questions that you more experienced guys have answered a hundred times, and I get great suggestions from a variety of folks. In this case I think it was Willie who first suggested the idea of insulating the siding and then powering it via an Atlas Connector. Others came up with similar or related ideas. The Connector approach seems the simplest for my small layout. Thanks for taking the time to dialogue with me.
 



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