Tie, ties, and ties

[zoegraf]

After experimenting with ME track last year and got results I really like. (See pics) I decided to use it on my next module. I have hand made turnouts with out ties and I'm trying to find ties that will match the ME ties. I have wood ties, but they are a tad wider and higher than the ties on the ME track. Any ideas would be much appreciated.

I also noted today that the tie spacing on ME track is a tad wider than other flex track. Could it represent branch line track?

 

[efram]

Nice job! I like the joint bar.

The spacing of ties on flex track depends upon the maker, and what prototype reference they used. Usually, it's the height and spacing of the ties, along with era and locale, that indicate what the track was used for. Your pics can pass as mainline, (IMO) no problem.

I use Central Valley ties. Check out their website, and you can see their selection. They have two versions of mainline ties and another branch line selection.

 

[zoegraf]

Nice job! I like the joint bar.

The spacing of ties on flex track depends upon the maker, and what prototype reference they used. Usually, it's the height and spacing of the ties, along with era and locale, that indicate what the track was used for. Your pics can pass as mainline, (IMO) no problem.

I use Central Valley ties. Check out their website, and you can see their selection. They have two versions of mainline ties and another branch line selection.

Thanks.

I have some CVT branch line ties, but I can't remember where I put them in storage. Will have to go hunting this weekend.

So you glue the rail down? And I,m presuming if the rail ever got knocked off or damaged you could just glue new rail down?

The problem with ME track, as much as I like it, is I would have to widen the space between the ties to represent branch line by cutting the spacers underneath the track. Also if the rail ever got knocked off, you can't put it back on.

Your thoughts?

 

[efram]

I glue the ties down with Carpenters glue. I use either a ruler or my eye/ribbon rails radii to make sure everything lines up. Once I'm satisfied with the placement, I use push tacks to hold the ties down whilst the glue dries.

The rail is glue onto the ties using contact cement diluted with varsol (I think.) You need to achieve a viscosity similar to table maple syrup. Then you paint it on the base of the rail. Once it dries, you place the rail on the ties. The cast spikes will automatically gauge the rail. However, be diligent. Seeing as the spikes are scale, it's easy to miss placement enough to be out of gauge.

Then, I use straight pins to hold the rail down, tightly, against the ties. Then, take a brush, dip it in the varsol and apply it liberally to the ties, at the spike area. This re-activates the dries contact cement, bonding the rail to the ties. When you do it right, it works VERY. As strong as Atlas or ME flextrack. And yes, if the rail is broken, you can clean the contact area ties and replace it.

 

[Boris]

This did not occur to me until this morning when I went out to push the coating of snow off my driveway. Hanging on my garage wall is a "crib" shovel, a long handled steel shovel 11½" wide at the widest point. It is designed to fit into the "crib" - that is the space between switch timbers, for the purpose of cleaning snow, mud or debris that would interfere with the movement of a switch. The conclusion is that the switch timbers are spaced approximately 12" apart. Your results may vary.

The other conclusion from this is that tie spacing is generally 12" apart universally.

It also occurred to me that this discussion may be hung up on distinctions between standards for a "Main" track, vs. standards for a "Branch" track. Depending on the railroad, this may mean something entirely different. The primary track of a "Branch" is also a main track. The PRR, PC and Conrail Timetable designation for a "line" could be "Main Track" - Harrisburg Line, for instance, or Port Road "Branch", for instance, or Chemical Coast "Secondary" Track, for example. All three examples are "Main Tracks".
The distinction is Main tracks have some sort of signal system in effect, Yard Tracks and/or Industrial tracks don't.

Track standards apply equally, although some distinctions exist between different regulatory "classes" of track, where in standards (level of maintenance, super elevation, etc. may vary.

Going back to the OP's questions, I feel that ME track is probably the closest flex to the real thing, and I believe ME sells wooden switch ties that closely match their other products.

Joe

 

[HOexplorer]

I like the pictures and don't get too upset by ties spacing generally. Your module is going to be very nice. The track won't be an issue. Well done. Jim

 

[HOexplorer]

On a 'related' issue. What is the explanation or reason for On30 tie spacing? Anyone? Jim

 

[zoegraf]

This did not occur to me until this morning when I went out to push the coating of snow off my driveway. Hanging on my garage wall is a "crib" shovel, a long handled steel shovel 11½" wide at the widest point. It is designed to fit into the "crib" - that is the space between switch timbers, for the purpose of cleaning snow, mud or debris that would interfere with the movement of a switch. The conclusion is that the switch timbers are spaced approximately 12" apart. Your results may vary.

The other conclusion from this is that tie spacing is generally 12" apart universally.

It also occurred to me that this discussion may be hung up on distinctions between standards for a "Main" track, vs. standards for a "Branch" track. Depending on the railroad, this may mean something entirely different. The primary track of a "Branch" is also a main track. The PRR, PC and Conrail Timetable designation for a "line" could be "Main Track" - Harrisburg Line, for instance, or Port Road "Branch", for instance, or Chemical Coast "Secondary" Track, for example. All three examples are "Main Tracks".
The distinction is Main tracks have some sort of signal system in effect, Yard Tracks and/or Industrial tracks don't.

Track standards apply equally, although some distinctions exist between different regulatory "classes" of track, where in standards (level of maintenance, super elevation, etc. may vary.

Going back to the OP's questions, I feel that ME track is probably the closest flex to the real thing, and I believe ME sells wooden switch ties that closely match their other products.

Joe

Very informative; thanks.

I checked out ME's site, but I don't know what the difference is between a high profile and low profile tie. I'm trying to find out which tie would match the ties on their code 70 flex track. I need ties for my skeleton turnouts.

 

[Boris]

Very informative; thanks.

I checked out ME's site, but I don't know what the difference is between a high profile and low profile tie. I'm trying to find out which tie would match the ties on their code 70 flex track. I need ties for my skeleton turnouts.

FWIW: I have a package of low profile switch timbers, and they match up very closely but not exactly end to end to ME code 70 flex.

 

[Rico]

On a 'related' issue. What is the explanation or reason for On30 tie spacing? Anyone? Jim

On30 ties would be laid roughtly the same distance apart as O scale ties, more or less.
So the spacing should be about double that of HO scale.

Okay, that and it represents narrow gauge that would be lighter than the average train.

 

[Cjcrescent]

Very informative; thanks.

I checked out ME's site, but I don't know what the difference is between a high profile and low profile tie. ...

The difference is that the so called high profile ties are ties that are basically full size ties. Low profile ties are model ties that are only about 1/2 the thickness of a full size tie. This saves on the amount of ballast needed to cover the roadbed between the ties.

 

[cv_acr]

The distinction is Main tracks have some sort of signal system in effect, Yard Tracks and/or Industrial tracks don't.

Not quite correct.

Plenty of lines are unsignalled, so quite a number of main tracks do not have any sort of signalling system on them, for all or part of the line. Yard and other secondary tracks typically do not have any sort of block signalling, but in some congested situations, or locations where secondary tracks connect with a signaled main track, or secondary tracks cross each other with a diamond, scattered interlockings can involve non-main tracks. Unless connecting or crossing a CTC signalled main track, these interlockings could be locally controlled or automatic. (And this would be the case for any non-CTC main track as well.)

The "main track" is simply that - the main track of the line. Every railroad line (except for an industrial spur) has one or more main tracks.

If you build a railroad from point A to point B, the track that runs from A to B is the main track. Then you add other secondary tracks (yards, passing sidings, storage tracks, industrial spurs and other leads and running tracks) as needed to support the operation.


Don't confuse "main track" with "main line". "Main line", or "secondary line" or "branch line" is how a railroad rates the importance of a particular line (which incorporates ALL of the various main, siding, yard and other tracks comprising the line). Every line, regardless of importance has a "main track".

 

[zoegraf]

The difference is that the so called high profile ties are ties that are basically full size ties. Low profile ties are model ties that are only about 1/2 the thickness of a full size tie. This saves on the amount of ballast needed to cover the roadbed between the ties.

Thanks! I'm guessing the high profile are used more by those with larger scales.

 

[zoegraf]

Not quite correct.

Plenty of lines are unsignalled, so quite a number of main tracks do not have any sort of signalling system on them, for all or part of the line. Yard and other secondary tracks typically do not have any sort of block signalling, but in some congested situations, or locations where secondary tracks connect with a signaled main track, or secondary tracks cross each other with a diamond, scattered interlockings can involve non-main tracks. Unless connecting or crossing a CTC signalled main track, these interlockings could be locally controlled or automatic. (And this would be the case for any non-CTC main track as well.)

The "main track" is simply that - the main track of the line. Every railroad line (except for an industrial spur) has one or more main tracks.

If you build a railroad from point A to point B, the track that runs from A to B is the main track. Then you add other secondary tracks (yards, passing sidings, storage tracks, industrial spurs and other leads and running tracks) as needed to support the operation.


Don't confuse "main track" with "main line". "Main line", or "secondary line" or "branch line" is how a railroad rates the importance of a particular line (which incorporates ALL of the various main, siding, yard and other tracks comprising the line). Every line, regardless of importance has a "main track".

Interesting. Thank you.

So it is possible that an old secondary line that may have had it's use reduced substantially over time could be reclassified as a branch line?

 

[Boris]

Not quite correct.

Plenty of lines are unsignalled, so quite a number of main tracks do not have any sort of signalling system on them, for all or part of the line. Yard and other secondary tracks typically do not have any sort of block signalling, but in some congested situations, or locations where secondary tracks connect with a signaled main track, or secondary tracks cross each other with a diamond, scattered interlockings can involve non-main tracks. Unless connecting or crossing a CTC signalled main track, these interlockings could be locally controlled or automatic. (And this would be the case for any non-CTC main track as well.)

The "main track" is simply that - the main track of the line. Every railroad line (except for an industrial spur) has one or more main tracks.

If you build a railroad from point A to point B, the track that runs from A to B is the main track. Then you add other secondary tracks (yards, passing sidings, storage tracks, industrial spurs and other leads and running tracks) as needed to support the operation.


Don't confuse "main track" with "main line". "Main line", or "secondary line" or "branch line" is how a railroad rates the importance of a particular line (which incorporates ALL of the various main, siding, yard and other tracks comprising the line). Every line, regardless of importance has a "main track".

If a main track has a switch targets on the switches, it has signals. If a block signal system is in effect, it has block limit signals. If a crossing between two railroads at grade has a fence with a stop sign or a barricade, it has a signal. Signals don't have to light up, they can be fixed signs.

I don't wish to over complicate this, because operating practices will vary by location, between railroads and in different countries. Terminology will also vary, compare the differences in the GCOR and NORAC rule books for example.

Even yard tracks, running tracks and industrial tracks have signals. The difference is that the signals on yard, running and industrial tracks do not convey block condition, while signals on "main" and Secondary tracks" do convey block condition. This applies in ABS and MBS systems. Signals convey information, not just condition of the block ahead. Some signals supersede other signals.

There are numerous lines where intermediate wayside signals have been removed in theory replaced by cab signals on the controlling locomotive, but the signal system is still there just the same. And there is a means for operating trains with failed cab signal systems within this territory.

I understand what you are getting at, but by your definition, even an industrial lead has a beginning and an end, so can be considered a main track between end point locations.

Joe

 

[Cjcrescent]

Thanks! I'm guessing the high profile are used more by those with larger scales.

No, not necessarily. They were invented by the manufacturers of wood ties. One reason is the one I gave, which was used in some of the advertizing. Another is that they found out the the lo-profile ties, once glued down properly would hold the rail as well as full size ties, but it also saved the manufacturers some of the costs associated with making them, as they could get sometimes almost twice the number of ties obtained from the wood they were using. The scale the ties were cut for had no bearing on the type of profile used.

 

[cv_acr]

If a main track has a switch targets on the switches, it has signals.

Non-main track switches tend to have targets too.

If a block signal system is in effect, it has block limit signals. If a crossing between two railroads at grade has a fence with a stop sign or a barricade, it has a signal. Signals don't have to light up, they can be fixed signs.

Sure, but I think we all recognize that the initial post that indicated "main tracks have signals and yard tracks don't" was quite clearly in the context of automatic blinky light type signals. If you expand that definition to include fixed signs and switch targets, the statement is just as wrong because by that definition, sidings, yards and other tracks are fully signaled too.

I don't wish to over complicate this, because operating practices will vary by location, between railroads and in different countries. Terminology will also vary, compare the differences in the GCOR and NORAC rule books for example.

Even yard tracks, running tracks and industrial tracks have signals. The difference is that the signals on yard, running and industrial tracks do not convey block condition, while signals on "main" and Secondary tracks" do convey block condition. This applies in ABS and MBS systems. Signals convey information, not just condition of the block ahead. Some signals supersede other signals.

Definitely no argument.

There are numerous lines where intermediate wayside signals have been removed in theory replaced by cab signals on the controlling locomotive, but the signal system is still there just the same. And there is a means for operating trains with failed cab signal systems within this territory.

Fixed signals or cab signals are still signals and provide the same information in the same situations. No argument here.

I understand what you are getting at, but by your definition, even an industrial lead has a beginning and an end, so can be considered a main track between end point locations.

Well now that is applying a ridiculous amount of semantic argument to the wording of that one particular sentence to make it mean something you darn well know I wasn't saying.

 

[Boris]

Well now that is applying a ridiculous amount of semantic argument to the wording of that one particular sentence to make it mean something you darn well know I wasn't saying.

Chris:

I'm not arguing anything with you. The references I used are based on Conrail Operating Rules and Practices. As they say on TV your experiences may vary.

There was a time when I was a member of the Operating Rules Committee, and you should have heard the arguments over semantics. Especially when they tried to fold the EL, RDG, CNJ, LV et all into the PC way of doing things. Then to complicate things further, along came Amtrak with their own vision, and NJT with theirs.

It's like calling a switch a turnout.....no one is wrong. To an operating employee it's a switch, to a Civil Engineer it's a turnout. My operating experience ranges from running 110mph Amtraks on the former PRR, to 10 mph locals on a former CNJ "Light Density Line" Both were "Main tracks" and both had signal systems in effect. One was Cab Signal - wayside signal, the other MBS, (dark), with a remote control interlocking at the East End of the line, and a distant signal in advance of the home board.

Railroading, (real and model) is not complicated. All it takes is common sense and good judgment.

Joe

 

[Boris]

No, not necessarily. They were invented by the manufacturers of wood ties. One reason is the one I gave, which was used in some of the advertizing. Another is that they found out the the lo-profile ties, once glued down properly would hold the rail as well as full size ties, but it also saved the manufacturers some of the costs associated with making them, as they could get sometimes almost twice the number of ties obtained from the wood they were using. The scale the ties were cut for had no bearing on the type of profile used.

Which explains the bag of "HO" wooden ties which I bought back in the 1970s, which is a "lower" profile (ever so slightly), than the low profile ME (HO C70) switch timbers I recently purchased.

Joe

 

[cv_acr]

Chris:

I'm not arguing anything with you. The references I used are based on Conrail Operating Rules and Practices. As they say on TV your experiences may vary.

There was a time when I was a member of the Operating Rules Committee, and you should have heard the arguments over semantics. Especially when they tried to fold the EL, RDG, CNJ, LV et all into the PC way of doing things. Then to complicate things further, along came Amtrak with their own vision, and NJT with theirs.

It's like calling a switch a turnout.....no one is wrong. To an operating employee it's a switch, to a Civil Engineer it's a turnout. My operating experience ranges from running 110mph Amtraks on the former PRR, to 10 mph locals on a former CNJ "Light Density Line" Both were "Main tracks" and both had signal systems in effect. One was Cab Signal - wayside signal, the other MBS, (dark), with a remote control interlocking at the East End of the line, and a distant signal in advance of the home board.

Railroading, (real and model) is not complicated. All it takes is common sense and good judgment.

Joe

OK, Joe, fair enough.