Super Elevated Curves?


goscrewyourselves

I'm the one
A few questions regarding Super Elevated Curves if I may:

1. What exactly are they?

2. Where are they used?

3. When are they used?

4. Why are they used or what is their purpose?

5. Are they necessary due to a particular circumstance/condition?

6. How are they calculated?

My questions are based on my believing that a Super Elevated Curve is one where the "track" is laid on an "angle" rather than being laid flat and has nothing to do with actual elevation.
 
Tony, I just watched this video the other day on you tube. I found it pretty helpful as I plan to do this on my next layout. This is for HO but if not modeling HO you could probably increase or decrease the size of the material depending on your scale.

https://youtu.be/q0uDy59QFOE

Steve


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Steve,

Thanks for the clip. I am modelling N Scale but, as you suggested, I assume the "technique" will be constant across the various scales so what applies to HO will also apply to N.
 
In the model railroads they are not needed. You do it for looks.

I thought about it for my HO layout but decided it simply wasn't worth it - there was more than enough work just laying the track as best as I could.

Frederick
 
Frederick,

Thank you. If I did understand what they were, I couldn't see any real need for them either unless you intended to run trains at maximum throttle all of the time and just let them go.

Again if my understanding was right, then I can't picture how it would even be possible to notice (without looking very closely) if a track was angled (super elevated) or not. So, if that seems to be the only actual function of them in the hobby, you are spot on when you say there is enough work to do just laying track "normally" without complicating it for "possible" looks only.
 
I would be very interested in including some super-elevation on the curves of my next layout (for visual reasons). Having said that, i have read that if you over-do it, there is scope for causing string-lining problems especially in long trains. The question is... how much is too much in order to cause problems. I suppose you would need come sort of easement/transition going in/out of the super-elevated part.
 
I would be very interested in including some super-elevation on the curves of my next layout (for visual reasons). Having said that, i have read that if you over-do it, there is scope for causing string-lining problems especially in long trains. The question is... how much is too much in order to cause problems. I suppose you would need come sort of easement/transition going in/out of the super-elevated part.

On the real railroads, they work in the same way as the banking on auto speedways e.g. on the curves at each end of Indianapolis etc and elsewhere and serve to allow higher speeds in those corners than would be the case if they were flat. With trains it also relieves the pressure on and wearing of both the outer wheel's flanges and the outer track's railhead. The leaning inwards of the cars, moves the center of gravity, also inwards of center, something as you find in cornering a bike by leaning it over. Model rolling stock isn't generally heavy enough to have any affect, so it's totally for visual effect. The only places on a layout where they would be a physical advantage in where there is a curve at the bottom of a fairly long grade and the combined weight of all the cars in a long train would put pressure on the outer rail and the cars might fall over outward. We have a few like that on the club layout and that does happen, especially on one, where after rounding the curve, the train goes into an upward grade. It also happens if the train comes to a sudden stop for some reason. It isn't a bad idea to super elevate the 'Down' track in a helix, if long trains will traverse it.

Very unrealisically, if there is a curve at the top of a grade, or in a helix, the 'Up' track if there's one so designated, reverse negative elevation would help to keep cars falling inward. If only one track serves both direction, the keep it flat as the only possible compromise.

Some body at the club in their wisdom when laying the trackwork on one of the penisular's ends, and on the highest track, which on one side climbs a long grade up to it, super elevated the end curve to an extreme. Fine going down and looks terrific. Coming up is heavily speed restricted and constant attention is needed to stop in case a car topples inwards and pulls others with it. That's happened too.
 
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1. What exactly are they?
Superlevevation is "banking" in a curve to overcome the forces of going around the curve.

2. Where are they used?
Curves with higher speeds on them (greater than 25 mph roughly)

3. When are they used?
When there is a higher speed curve.

4. Why are they used or what is their purpose?
See question #1.

5. Are they necessary due to a particular circumstance/condition?
They are necessary for passenger service on high speed curves so the riders don't feel like they are being thrown to the outside of the curve and on freights to mininmize the chances of overturning on a curve. But they can't be so much that they unbalance a car or engine when its sitting still on a curve. High speed passenger trains actually have "tilt" mechanisms that create more "superelevation" of the car body for passenger ride quality at speeds above 100 mph.

6. How are they calculated?
Its a formula based on the speed of the track. Then there is a runoff based on how much superelevation there is. About 4" would be a very high speed curve.

Having said all that, the typical model railroad operates at speeds so slow its not actually required, mostly its purely cosmetic to make it look like the trains are going faster than they are.

I use layers of masking tape under the outside rail to raise the outside rail. For most curves in N-Scale two layer of 1/4" wide tape would be more than enough, maybe three if you are modeling a high speed passenger route.
 
Having said that, i have read that if you over-do it, there is scope for causing string-lining problems especially in long trains. The question is... how much is too much in order to cause problems. I suppose you would need come sort of easement/transition going in/out of the super-elevated part.

Superelevation is used because of the speed of the track. Model railroads operate at VERY low speeds. If you are going to be operating trains at 100 mph up and down the helix, then superelevating it will be great. But I don't know of a single person that does that (unless some cut of cars breaks loose), so NO superevelevation is required. Most superevelvation on a real railroad is in the order of 1-4 inches (outside rail higher than inside rail) so that works out to about .044 in HO. On a model railroad the speeds are usually so low that NO superelevation is required. If you are operating your trains like the TGV, then yes. Mostly its cosmetic, all you need is enough to create a the illusion that the track is canted.
 
I did super elevate some of my curves mainly for looks. Using the cookie cutter method, I used a level and slightly dropped the inside of the plywood road bed. It does look cool, but guess that it really wasn't necessary. While taking a cab view video, I had issues with the camcorder. I found out that all of my flat cars had sprung trucks and the camera was heavy enough that if it wasn
t perfectly balanced, it would roll off of the flat car and mow down some 1/87 cattle.

Also, when pulling a long trin up the grade, where the super elevated curve was at the top, I had to be careful of the lead freight cars would tip over if the weight was too much. I did solve that by putting a helper into the middle of the train.
 
Super-elevation controls lurch outward. This is important for buffeting. Passengers, sensitive equipment, and perishable goods require stable platforms when being moved, especially at high speeds. Super-elevation is a way of controlling an item's tendency to continue on a tangent, or a straight line, when the platform on which it is being conveyed commences a curved path under it.

If you ever had some learnin' about Newton's Laws of Motion, you would remember that an object at rest stays at rest unless energy is used to accelerate it. Similarly, an object in motion wants to stay in motion unless energy is bled off or converted to induce it to decelerate. We ignore the effects of drag and friction for the moment because they bleed off energy all the time in items in motion.

So, items running hard down a long tangent (rails between curves are called tangents) will want to continue along that notional path, even if the cars they're on have to follow along with the curving track. With abrupt curves, the kind you get in sectional track such as EZ-Track, imagine trying to stay upright while walking down the aisle inside a heavyweight passenger car while the car speeds into an abrupt onset of a sharp curve. Soup would fly, along with their host bowls, passengers slammed against the wall on the outside of the curve. Meat carcasses swaying in a reefer just behind the engine (reefers were at the head end, and on fast freight or passenger consists for quick switching out to another train.) Stacked cases of bananas thrown about, first left, then on the next curve, to the right. Banana smoothie, anyone?

So, for comfort and safety, on the prototype ONLY, rails were both eased and super-elevated. If you wonder how easements work, think of your car as you turn at a city intersection. Are you thrown hard away from the seat because you have to go from tangent to full curve? Or, as you begin to turn your steering wheel, do the front tires also begin to reduce the radius of the curved path? That is what an eased curve does...it reduces the radius during forward motion, thus reducing the lurch. Banking, or super-elevating, contributes to the effect of easing by moving the entire system's centre of gravity toward the pivot point along the radius of the curve at any one point along the curve. Said differently, super-elevation causes a shift toward the inside of the curve, thus helping items to stay where they are due to countering that tendency to get thrown outward.

Easements do help our models, but only on tight curves where the couplers are thrown near their maximum travel sideways along the curve. They do nothing substantial for keeping items upright at the speeds we use. The same can't be said for super-elevation; it can add to the drag on a curve because the physics isn't the same as it is on the prototype. Steep banking will cause the rolling stock on our layouts to ride tight to the low rail, thus causing the flanges to drag and to wear prematurely. More drag, less traction, smaller trains. Do this on a grade, and you're really demanding a lot from our scale locomotives.

So, we ask, why bother to do all the work to both super-elevate and to ease the curves on our layouts? Because it contributes greatly to the illusion that we are looking at a real railroad. For those entering photo contests, it is easy points for that Gee Whiz factor.
 
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On layouts where I have seen super-elevation used, It definitely adds to the realistic look of the scene ... I feel that the effort is worth it.
 
Thanks guys. The general consensus seems to be that "they" are pointless in the hobby other than for visual effect. That being said, if all it takes (in N Scale) is a layer of masking tape to "raise" one rail to simulate an elevated curve then maybe it might be fun for that alone.
 
I believe that Kato has come out in N with a Unitrak double track curved sections that include superelevation. I don't know the radii, but I'm sure you could check into it.
 
I believe that Kato has come out in N with a Unitrak double track curved sections that include superelevation. I don't know the radii, but I'm sure you could check into it.

I saw that too, somewhere. It's another thing we do in modelling, just like super detailing locos and rolling stock. Make them look as close to real as we can.
 
Toot'n,

Interesting comment - us wanting to make things as real as possible.

It would be interesting to see where the hobby is in another 10, 20 or 50 years. Like anything though, I think you can only go so far before "stepping over the boundary" of practicality and everything becomes far too involved, or complicated, in the quest for the ultimate realism.

I'm sure one day, you'll be able to go into a store (cough cough) and buy something that you place on a "table top", plug into a computer, load up the software and program it to form the shape of your track design, complete with elevations and all, leaving you with the "simple task" of laying the physical track. Or, maybe, it will include the track as well :)
 



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