Newbie with layout reccomendations


hmm, The crossing will be 5' from the the freight building that will go down 1" into the foam layer. Then from the grain loader to the crossing is 5.5' with a 2" inch grade, for a total of 3" clearance.
 
About sound, Motley

Motley:

Sound decoders are pretty much abundant now, either inside the engines themselves, or as separate decoders. It all depends on how much you want to spend. The Digitrax SFX004 seems to be compatible with just about any application, as is the SoundTraxx Tsunami. On the Digitrax SFX004, the way to turn on and off the sound is using the F8 function.
 
A five foot run that rises 3" (doesn't matter how you do it, you still have to get up those three inches) equals a 5% grade. Since most of the grade is on a curve, the effective grade will be closer to 6% because of flange friction. You've given no room ot grade transition, whcih will add another foot, since you you just can start climbing a grade from the level without having at least a gentle rise first. If you do, you'll find cars uncoupling as you go up and down the grade. The type of grade you envision will require at least two units to take 8-10 car up and over. See http://www.urbaneagle.com/data/RRgrades.html for more information.
 
UP2CSX said:
A five foot run that rises 3" (doesn't matter how you do it, you still have to get up those three inches) equals a 5% grade. Since most of the grade is on a curve, the effective grade will be closer to 6% because of flange friction. You've given no room ot grade transition, whcih will add another foot, since you you just can start climbing a grade from the level without having at least a gentle rise first. If you do, you'll find cars uncoupling as you go up and down the grade. The type of grade you envision will require at least two units to take 8-10 car up and over. See http://www.urbaneagle.com/data/RRgrades.html for more information.
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I understand that, but the grade will only be 2" because I HAVE A 1" OF FOAM LAYER (I've mentioned this several times now, and nobody is listening to me) One track will go down into the foam to the plywood 1", so the other track will only have a 2" grade for 5 1/2 feet.
 
I am listening and there is no need to shout. How do you think having the track go from one inch of foam and down to the plywood and then back up again is going to work? You still have to climb from zero elevation to three inches no matter what, since the track will start from three inches below the highest point. I think I understand what you believe will happen but it can't - three inches is still three inches, since that track has to get back on top of the one inch foam somehow. Even if it could somehow work, you still need to add space for a transition and your grade will be on on a curve, making the effective grade about 4%, which is still a very steep grade. Unless you only intend to run trains one way, I also can't see how you have less than a 5% grade in the other direction.

If you just want to build your layout without me offering my advice, just say so. It will save me the time of trying to explain the basics of civil engineering to you. When you build it, you'll find out which one of us was right.
 
Motley, from my limited experience grades are very tricky. besides the grade itself, the transition into it is crucial and the bigger your grade the longer is your easement. forgo the easement and you will find plows scraping and cars uncoupling on the crest. add non precise curve and stuff derails while you pulling your hair.

But, at the end of it it is up to you. model your grade and before settling on it see how it works.


i have very limited space and as you i had to had a grade. bit more then 5Ft of curved track that climbs almost 4 inches (no need to calculate, i know - insane %). I call this section "the crescent plunge". even though on picture it might look not to bad, no more then few cars can get up there, and some of my engines are on a verge of slipping even by them-self. so this is mostly a descent route. and even then took lots of tweaking to avoid stringling of cars. easement starts with the turnout leading into this section (so there is slight hump on the straight through route).
doable , but that line will be severely limited


DSC_2873-vi.jpg
 
UP2CSX said:
I am listening and there is no need to shout. How do you think having the track go from one inch of foam and down to the plywood and then back up again is going to work? You still have to climb from zero elevation to three inches no matter what, since the track will start from three inches below the highest point. I think I understand what you believe will happen but it can't - three inches is still three inches, since that track has to get back on top of the one inch foam somehow. Even if it could somehow work, you still need to add space for a transition and your grade will be on on a curve, making the effective grade about 4%, which is still a very steep grade. Unless you only intend to run trains one way, I also can't see how you have less than a 5% grade in the other direction.

If you just want to build your layout without me offering my advice, just say so. It will save me the time of trying to explain the basics of civil engineering to you. When you build it, you'll find out which one of us was right.
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Sorry Jim, didn't mean to yell at you, I really need all the advice I can get. But I still have to disagree with you about the grade. OK, so one side of the track will go down 1" right. OK then the other side of the track is already at the 1" foam layer and will go up 2" for a total clearance of 3" when they cross. I think it will work, but like you said, I'll have to test it fully before I lay down the track permanently.

Sorry I'm just really stuck on the whole loop around flying crossover, and it will break my heart if I have to ditch it. :eek:
 
It wouldn't take all that much to make a foam mock-up, lay the tracks carefully so that you are not confounding your experiment with things you could have controlled for (like sloppy track joins, undulating or rolling tracks that make your engines lose traction at the wheels...) and see how it goes for you. If it works, it works.

Just remember that, for a given available space to effect a change of elevation, and the more you encroach on it for vertical curves, the less actual consistent climbing grade portion you have to get to altitude. The steeper the grade, the worse it is because you now need that much more transition so that couplers don't fall apart or parts of the front of the engine don't actually snag on track elements (it happens!) The more you change in elevation, the steeper the grade, but the steeper the grade, the more encroachment on your available length the transitions must be, forcing the grade proper between them to get even steeper yet!!! Oy..it's the gift that keeps on giving when you get stuck on a track formation that is so problematic.

On the real railroads, the only factor is available horsepower to get the trailing tonnage up the grade...plus traction or adhesion problems if rails are slick or wet. But in our confined spaces, we do literally highly exaggerate the impositions on our tiny trains by making the curves impossibly tight for the real railroads, and in most cases, we make our engines pull up steep grades to get the overhead clearances we love with one tunnel portal to a bridge over the lower portions of our track plan.

A grade is a grade is a grade...the same for any scale. So we are stuck with rise over a given run, and those runs are what cause us the problem if we decide that the rise we desire is not to be the problem (which, of course it is).

So, it makes abundant sense to mock it up with care to test the real effects you impose on the engine(s). Only with your eyeballs seeing what happens will you accept that your plan works or has to be let go.
 
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Ya I'm definitely going to test it before I lay any track down permanently.

btw, I'm all covered in saw dust! Ahhhhh... the table is coming out pretty good. I think I put 12hrs in yesterday and today!
 
Thanks! I'm going to check that out.

btw, I'm finally done with all my benchwork!!! In fact, my expansion area (lower-left) is built out too. Here's my layout with the expansion, gonna be a mountain tunnel.

HO15_new.jpg
 
Here's an update of my new project. I started laying the track down this weekend! Wow this is alot of work, it's taking a long time, but it's fun.

I got the woodland scenic's summer-grass matt and the forest matt, it looks really good, should look really cool when I get all the tree and stuff in there too. I also made a couple of "grassy knolls" in the corners of the layout.

I went ahead and built out the expansion peice in the lower-left corner, can't just leave that space sitting there! lol
I will start on the mountain tunnel soon as well.

Been making several trips to the local hobby store, boy I bet they like me now!

Anyways, I modified my layout a bit more, just final tweaking. I have the back bridge done with a 2% grade, and next I will start on the cross-over with some extensive testing, it should be a 2% grade as well.

HO15_new.jpg
 
Not like I'm trying to tell you what to do or anything, but I would not use Woodland Scenics grass mats. It looks more realistic when you paint the surface, and then apply Woodland Scenics fine, medium, and coarse turf, and then apply scenic cement on top of it all.
 
Larry Launstein Jr said:
Not like I'm trying to tell you what to do or anything, but I would not use Woodland Scenics grass mats. It looks more realistic when you paint the surface, and then apply Woodland Scenics fine, medium, and coarse turf, and then apply scenic cement on top of it all.
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Ya sure.. now you tell me! lol it's too late now, but I think if I apply the turf over the matt it will look decent. I'm not going for show quality anyways. But I'm sure after I finish I will want to fine tune all the scenery. ;)
 
OK well I've done another layout modification. I removed one of the main-line loops (lower-left) and freed up some room for a better rail yard, and I even have an engine shop now! I also created 2 more additional industrial spurs (lower-left).

And right now I'm knee deep in foam shavings! Trying to get the lower track of the cross-over junction nice and smooth grade.

Let me know what you guys think of my layout now, it has bit more operations to it.

HO15_new1.jpg
 
mschreuder said:
Sounds like you're making some progress! How about posting a few pictures if you can? Always fun to see progress photos.
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Thanks! I love being covered in foam! lol

Sorry I don't have my camera right now but I'll try to borrow one and post some pics.
 
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