help with turnouts


lokithorjls

newbie wanting to learn
why are my turn outs derailing. i am a newbie. did i buy to cheap? or install wrong. everyone else seems to get them to work.
HO scale 18 inch curve with the higher rail (code80? i think)if any of you good people can help me please do so. i am open to your expertise.
and if anyone lives near me i would sure like to get together. zip code 54960
 
You can start by pushing a few cars through the turnout to see if you can feel anything sticking or hanging. Also watch the wheels as they go through.
Also note if it is all cars derailing or just a couple. Sometimes a car is not heavy enough and can have problems. Then make sure that the turnout is switching fully and in the same direction. A car passing over a switched turnout while trying to go straight will often derail.
Last but not least take a close look and make sure nothing fell in between the tracks where they cross.
Good Luck
 
Depending on two main factors, your cars and their trucks and couplers, plus the quality and geometry of the turnouts, you could have problems in any one area or all three. Commercial turnouts compromise heavily to get most cars through them, and they suffer in operation quite a bit...oddly...as a result. Often their guards and wing rails are too far from their adjacent stock or frog rails. Your car trucks may be impeded when they try to swivel because of added details, plastic flashing, stuck whatever.... Also, your couplers may not be permitting enough side movement for the turnout you are using.

You should invest in a track gauge. It also has a wheel gauge that will allow you to verify that your wheels are spaced properly, plus placed properly, on their axles. If flanges don't line up from axle-to-axle, then one of the axles is likely to pick a frog point or something.
 
Thank you hamltnblue, it is so good of you to answer my post and try to help. i used to be a computer tech and have searched the net and several books in vain to find a good guide to laying track. I imagine there are a lot of problems that can crop up and bad techniques one could learn to avoid. but all i find are chapter after chapter about design. then the sentence now lay the track. Design is very important but i can not believe there is nothing on a step by step on laying the track.
on to what you said...
the only thing i have tried to run on the track so far is my engine a steam locomotive, two part not one of the very long ones. so i it is not a matter of being to light, or to long i think. tho the tighter radius could be playing a part.
I hate to be a pain but i am a newbie and need to ask what you mean by "sticking or hanging" do you mean like hitting something. how do i tell if it is switching fully? and what do i do if i find any of these problems.
it kind of sounds like this is a common problem everyone has. if that is so i think i will stick to a plain boring oval so i can at least run the train.
and thank you again for any help you can give.
jerry
 
selector thank you as well for taking the time to answer. most of your post is way over my head. but i am using a atlas turnout. can you tell me brand of a good turnout? as to the rest i think it would be quite a lengthy post for you to dumb it down enough for me to understand.
jerry
 
What exactly do you see happening when the train derails?
What I mean by sticking is sometimes a bad truck will try to stay straight and not turn easily. Also a couple might not have good play. I even had a steamer do the same thing once. It turned out that the engine was hitting the tender when in a tight turn. It has a couple of holes in the connector rod and the fix was to move it to put more space between the 2.
It shouldn't take long to observe the even in a slower speed to see what is going on.
Good Luck
 
Simple rule with atlas track brown ties code 83 black track code 100. I use atlas they aren't to pretty or perform perfectly but once you get them working they are pretty cheap and usually reliable. As far as other brands Peco is usually gets good revews and sinohara/walthers are supposed to be really good but they are made in limited numbers so hard to find and you get that hard to find price :D. Just to check you are using something to switch it like the atlas switch machine right? (You be surprised the people I have met that switch it with their finger and are like why is it moving halfway when my train go through.:) ) I would think youre using number 4 turnouts (turnout 9 inch long) i would have a hard time getting a steamer to go through a number 4 once let alone reliably.I would get number 6's or higher. You'll get it worked out ive never met anyone that got there turnouts to work perfectly the first time they layed them :D .
 
Thank you hamltnblue, i am in my wheelchair tonight (I have MS) but as soon as i can get to the train i will look at this more closely. and report back.jerry
 
Hi Jerry,
You have been given some good information so far and hope you have solved your problem but it can be a little trying/frustrating to say the least but thats
the reason for the forum is so the knowledge can be spread around to help as
needed.

There are a number of reasons the Loco/cars could be derailing and wheel spacing could be one of them as well as the rails are too close together or too far aprt to allow the guard rails to do their job properly [ I'll explain below], so a gauge can be an important tool to have. I have them abailable through my Foot Hill Supplies under, For Sale & Wanted should you want to deal with me?

The way a switch is made the engine and cars tend to want to get misaligned
as they pass through the Frog, the central portion where the two rails form a point and the actual Points or moveable rails, specifacly where they touch the outside rails, guide the Loco and cars through there to head in the desired diection which of course your aware of.

But there can be problems that exist in that the Guard Rails on either side along the outside rails and opposite the Frog don't pull the the wheels far enough to the outside which can allow the inside wheel to climb up on the Point of the Frog and derail. Atlas switches at one time allowed too much space between the Guard Rail and the outside rail and a shim of somewhat thin plastic had to be glued to the guard rail to pull the wheels toward the outside rail so the trucks wouldn't pick the central point.

Also as previously mentioned it's essential to ensure that the points press against the outside rail somewhat firmly to ensure the the wheels don't have a chance to pass between the point rail and the outside rail as this will also cause a derailment.

Another common problem is in tacking the track, Tie/s, down too firmly against the board which causes the tie to start to take on a V shape which pulld the outside rails together making it narrower or a tight spot and a cause for problems.

Depending on the Loco you have, as has been mentioned, the sharper radius of he switch may be too sharp for the loco. Also if all wheels are flanged that decreases the flexibality of the loco to negotiate a tighter raduus. So keep that switch for a yard where you'll only be operating a smaller swither which shold handle the smaller radius just fine.

Also your going to find that longer cars, if it's your intention to run them require at least #6 if not prefferably #8 especialy for the mainline. Now if you don't have the room to use these longer switches you may need to switch to shorter cars that will.

Another thing that was mentioned is that tender and car trucks should have some wiggle room and not be tightened down to the underside of the frame to make the car or tender inflexable to side-to-side movement a little bit at east as that alows for smooth rooling over inprefections in the rail and making adjustments in alignment when rolling through a switch.

Also as was mentioned, if your using Kdee couplers or similiar with a metak shank the curves down it is possible that if they are not adjusted properly they can hit or rub against the rail which will cause the car/loco to be pushed or pulled one way or the other and that can also cause a derailment.

Another possibility is improper adjoinment of the rails which will cause one rail to be either higher or lower than the other which again can cause problems.

So I'm sure by now your begining to see there are quite a few different possibilities for your derailment problem.


Hope this has helped and not too difficult to understand.

By the way, Mark and I build our own switch using templates so we come upon these problems quite often, with a little practice you'll become an old hand at track laying and be guiding others. It's all part of th learning process.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
lokithorls, I am sorry what I wrote was difficult for you to follow. You have had very comprehensive and thoughtful replies since mine.

Let me illustrate one of the problems:

Your rolling stock and engines have two wheels per axle <=[(=======)]=>

The space between the flanges, the sharp disks on the inner face of the wheels, must be set apart from each other within a very narrow range, or one or the other will "pick" (strike) something going through the turnout.

But, there is more...what if the wheels on one axle are not in the same position as the wheels on the next axle, but they are still set the right distance (what we call gauge) apart. You have this:

<=[(=======)]=>

<[(=======)]==>

Both wheel sets are in gauge, but they aren't positioned properly on their axles relative to the frame they share. Notice the end tapered bearings...the pointy tips at the end of each axle. They ride in a receiver in the side frames of the trucks. If they are both properly inserted to their sideframe receivers, but one pair is set too far to one side, you get the tracking you can picture intuitively from looking at the diagram above. Problems!

Did that help?

You must force both axles to one side in each of your trucks and sight from behind one of them to see if the flanges line up. But, you still need a verfication method that the wheels are spaced apart if they are lined up..and that is why every modeller eventually gets themselves an NMRA track gauge. All hobby shops carry them if they deal in model trains, or you can order over the internet.
 
Jerry, you all ready have excellent info to help you locate the problem, but I was just thinking about a problem I had with #4 Atlas turnouts. (I normally use #5 or #6, but did have #4's in an industrial area.) My 4-8-2 loco always had a hard time going through this one area of 3 turnouts. The drivers would sometimes ride up on the rail about mid ways in the turnout. After removing the t.o., I saw that the whole thing was bent/warped in the middle. Since then, most of the Atlas #4's I have bought are this same way, some worst than others. You can check this by looking down the long stock rail (the one that goes all the way end-to-end.) I have fixed a few by laying their edge flat and applying some pressure on the opposite side of the bend. You have to be careful or you can make things worst.;)
 
wow! thanks for all this great advise. it has helped me emmensly. the turn outs are working much better. even tho my turnouts are 9 inches long on the straight piece. so i asume i am using a #4, i don't have the package so i can only go by that. I will have to save some money for some new ones if i have more trouble. also for the gauge. I have little money so it will take a while but thank you for such detailed help.
i do have a 2nd problem if anyone can help. Cleaning track. the engine manufacturer says not to use a bright boy or abrasives. so what do i use? i have used a bright boy and I still have a slow engine. perhaps it is even a the transformer. any help there? thanks again. jerry smith. ( buy the way i have a brother named david smith :)
 
Hi Jerry, [and not from your brother]

The problem could be caused by/from different reasons.

1st. Dirt on the Loco wheel tires;
A bright boy can be used to clean them or Alcohol but the best and simplest way to go is a Speedy Driver Cleaner from Kdee [If I remember correctly] but they are more costly too.

2nd. Dirt and oil between the drivers and the pick-up contacts on the frame or truck frames as the case may be. Easily enough cleaned with some stiff scrap card stock or folded paper draged between the pick-up and back side of the wheel flange. Also be sure to wipe the wheel flange so it's clean too.

3rd. I've found that most of the time on loco's having open fram motors that the comutator, the copper section in front of the windings that has groves cut into it becomes dirty with oil and carbon from the brushes and can cause a problem. So that needs to be carefully cleaned so as to ensue that none of the small wires connected to the winding plate insulator and then down to the different comutator plates don't get broken. Most of the time they are out of the way enough so nothing happens.

Also there is a grove-space betbeen each comutator plate and a small stiff piece of papper stock is needed to worked back and forth in the grove to clean the dirt and junk out so that each plate is seperated from the plate on either side. Again some alchol or other solvent can be used but be sure it's dry before trying to run the motor if you have it out of the loco or the engine if the motor is still mounted to the frame.

4th. The other possibility that's happened to me is that one or both of the small wires that connects to the brushes on the top side of the motor is only connected by one or two strands of wire and not allowing the full amount of current flow across the comutator through the brushes to proberly turn the motor over and allow it to run with the torque in needs.

Other than that it could be dirty track, but you said you cleaned it, possibly poor connection between rail joints or possibly a cold [not shinny] solder joint supplying the electricity to the rail. A cold joint is,'pimpily and dull Grey' in appearance and is caused by not enough heat being applied to the rail to properly melt the solder when making the connection to begin with. A proper solder joint should be shinny and smooth on both the wire and the rail after soldering.

I think I've about covered it but others may have some other suggestions.

Hope this helps to resolve your problem? It's helped me to breath new life into an old tired engine that was run quite a bit.
 
thanks trussrod for your answer. im sorry it takes me so long to get back to read it. i am confused a bit. well more than a bit. you lost me after number1. are you asking me to take the engine apart? i have no idea what some of these terms are like comutator, etc...
 



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