Getting started!

[tower59]

Hello, all! I grew up on Lionel trains. After I left for college, my younger brother and Dad spent a couple of years making a respectable HO railroad. My sons have fond memories of playing with that HO set with their uncle and now love trains. We just returned from a trip to Alaska and all fell in love with the Alaska Railroad. So here's our plan: turn a good portion of my son's bedroom into an HO version of the Alaska Railroad with the highlights from our trip miniaturized in the display. Sounds good, so far, right?

Well, frankly, I'm feeling overwhelmed. I merely played with trains as a boy and never tackled any serious train modeling or electrical work. After reading through many, many pages on this website (a great resource, by the way!), I've got a few big questions:

(1) Electrical plan: Would love to have independent control of two trains. I think that means DCC, right? If so, is there a really, really simplified how-to out there so I don't have to spend hundreds of hours with a soldering iron and have to go back to school to get an electrical engineering degree? If DCC can't be simplified, then maybe old-school DC is the way go. Is that ok to do in 2014? What percent of engines sold today are DC vs DCC? Electrical work is not the part of modeling that I'm looking forward to- it's a necessity, I understand, but the fun part will be running the train with my son and working on scenery, etc. Need simplest, possible way to get reliable electricity working and would prefer as complete a kit purchase option as possible.

(2) Track plan: I want to minimize the time necessary to get to the stage where a train is actually running. I really like the idea of buying a package deal that has already been planned out, refined, and the parts collected, like that Altas offers. However, I've read here that track availability and quality may not be the best with Atlas. I don't have to have "the best" and my goal is not to have a mirror image of real life, but rather enjoy a fun project that my son can really participate in while remembering great family time in Alaska. That means the train and track must work, but don't have to made of solid gold, if you catch my drift. In particular, we were looking at Atlas plans HO-10, 22, or maybe 16. I'm sure there are many other options, too- the important thing is that it should fit in the room (room dimensions 13' x 12') and still allow for bed and furniture, so I'm thinking maximum table size is 13' x 6'. Also, it would be nice to be able to run two trains on it at once so both sons can participate. Also, we plan on passenger cars so need adequate space for those turns, whatever "adequate" might be!

One son is 6 and he really is excited about this project, but if the trains don't actually run before he's 17, I think he'll lose interest and the project will be a failure. I don't want that. Would appreciate any and all advice regarding "getting started" information and resources, and maybe some estimation of time commitment to get to a running status. Many thanks!

 

[Iron Horseman]

So here's our plan: turn a good portion of my son's bedroom into an HO version of the Alaska Railroad with the highlights from our trip miniaturized in the display. Sounds good, so far, right?

That is a perfect plan. Write out the scenes first then design the track around that.

(1) Electrical plan: Would love to have independent control of two trains. I think that means DCC, right? If so, is there a really, really simplified how-to out there so I don't have to spend hundreds of hours with a soldering iron and have to go back to school to get an electrical engineering degree? If DCC can't be simplified, then maybe old-school DC is the way go.

There is no way DCC will ever be as hard a old-school DC, that is about the hardest electrical plan there is. Do not make DCC harder than it really is. Most of the blather about DCC is either from some strange situation that requires something special, or from someone who has done something wrong and is over compensating to make up for it. For the layouts you have mentioned most would suffice with about 4 feeders (8 wires) from the DCC system to various places on the track. One feeder for every 6 feet of track is a good rule of thumb. DCC is easy. If it isn't you are doing something wrong.

What percent of engines sold today are DC vs DCC?

No idea. I've not seen any current releases that don't have both versions available. I've purchased 3 locos without DCC in the last year, but that wasn't because I didn't want DCC but that I didn't want sound. I added DCC to them.

(2) Track plan: I want to minimize the time necessary to get to the stage where a train is actually running. I really like the idea of buying a package deal that has already been planned out, refined, and the parts collected, like that Altas offers. However, I've read here that track availability and quality may not be the best with Atlas. I don't have to have "the best" and my goal is not to have a mirror image of real life, but rather enjoy a fun project that my son can really participate in while remembering great family time in Alaska. That means the train and track must work, but don't have to made of solid gold, if you catch my drift. In particular, we were looking at Atlas plans HO-10, 22, or maybe 16. I'm sure there are many other options, too- the important thing is that it should fit in the room (room dimensions 13' x 12') and still allow for bed and furniture, so I'm thinking maximum table size is 13' x 6'.

Lots of stuff here. 1. Atlas - The issue with Atlas has been availability since the fire a couple years ago. I don't know what "quality" issues there would be. I've used Atlas for 5 decades without any quality issues. 2. The three layout designs you have mentioned are way different concepts from one another. #10 is designed to make up trains in the yard and run them around for a while, come in and make up another train. #16 is a single line main track designed for operation of two or three trains meeting and passing each other on the sidings. #22 is a "scene" of a busy railroad junction. Supposedly it is three railroads meeting at one point. Unfortunately the way the loops turn around, the "three" railroads get all mixed up. Running multiple trains here could be fun just because it is tricky as one not only has to worry about running into the other train's caboose, but also broadsiding the others at the many crossings. I would think #16 would be most like Alaska, especially if one did not use the crossing but take the track up and over the other one. I really think it would be better to document the scenes you want to replicate and then see which layout they fit into or design the track around them. Other than the material list, I don't know that a layout kit would really be any faster than coming up with your own design.

Then to think outside the box, one can fit a whole lot more railroad into a given space if the "table size" isn't a table at all but a shelf around the room. Is that possible in your situation? I slept under my layout for many years as the layout ran over the top of the bed. The current standard example is Scott Perry's Heart of Georgia design. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/

Also, it would be nice to be able to run two trains on it at once so both sons can participate. Also, we plan on passenger cars so need adequate space for those turns, whatever "adequate" might be!

There you are right back to the DCC scenario. With DCC, multiple trains can be run simultaneously on any layout. If you are really going to stick with the table concept, then curves will be tight so it would be good to look for the "shorty" passenger cars. An around the room can usually have larger curves and hence longer passenger cars.

 

[goscrewyourselves]

Well, frankly, I'm feeling overwhelmed.

I know that feeling all too well when it comes to the wiring.

(1) Electrical plan: Would love to have independent control of two trains. I think that means DCC, right?

Not really BUT DCC makes is so much simpler, especially in terms of the wiring.

If so, is there a really, really simplified how-to out there so I don't have to spend hundreds of hours with a soldering iron and have to go back to school to get an electrical engineering degree?

Like you, I was "scared of DCC" until I bit the bullet and got it. The thing with DCC is that your power and everything to do with a train working properly is supplied via the track. As such, the only real thing to be concerned about is (initially) ensuring your track work is spot on with good, clean secure joins.

For a basic DCC setup - ie track trains trains going around, all you need to do is connect your DCC Power Pack to the track which will require soldering a wire to one rail and another wire to the other rail. Those wires are called "Feeders" and will connect to your DCC Power Pack. Alternatively, you can cheat (as I did) and by pre wired track joiners which, if your track and joins are spot on, will require no soldering at all, other than adding wire to them to reach your Power Pack.

For a better and more reliable way, use pre wired track joiners about every 6' of track laid. Doing that will require running two main wires (Bus Wires) for the Feeder wires (those attached to the track) to be joined to. Those main Bus Wires then connect to your DCC Power Pack.

Essentially, that is it so far as wiring goes to get a DCC layout up and running. No different to DC really. Your DCC Controller is then used to "program the engines" (which require a DCC Decoder installed) to run them. In simple terms, an engine equipped with a DCC Decoder is "normally" programmed to something called CV 3. Basically that is the identifying number of the engine, or something like that. You can put 1,2,4 etc etc DCC equipped trains on your layout and they will all run. To be able to independently operate each train, the DCC Decoder has to be programmed by changing its CV number. While this must sound very confusing, it is easy to do and the instructions (which are normally idiot proof step 1, step 2 etc) for doing so come with the DCC System that you buy. If you can read, and understand English, you can setup your trains.

If DCC can't be simplified, then maybe old-school DC is the way go. Is that ok to do in 2014?

Running DC is very acceptable in 2014, and many people still do run DC systems.

What percent of engines sold today are DC vs DCC?

Don't know the percentages; but, most companies sell one of three types of engines:

1. DC only
2. DCC Ready (the engine is wired etc for a DCC Decoder to be installed)
3. DCC Equipped

Electrical work is not the part of modeling that I'm looking forward to- it's a necessity, I understand, but the fun part will be running the train with my son and working on scenery, etc. Need simplest, possible way to get reliable electricity working and would prefer as complete a kit purchase option as possible.

Wiring isn't my forte either, thank god for the electrical guru's here. Honestly though, both DC and DCC require some electrical work (wiring). From what I understand, the wiring for DCC is MUCH easier than it is for DC if you intend to run more than one train.

Naturally, as with anything, you can make it as hard as you want or keep it as simple as you want, depending on what you are wanting. For example, you can have parts of your track wired into detectors, electrical things for signals, other stuff for automating your turnouts, signals, hell you can even wire it so your computer runs the whole darn thing while you sit back and just watch! The possibilities with DCC are expansive, if you want them to be.

Essentially though, you buy a DCC System (NCE Power Cab is the most recommended I think due to ease of use and cost) connect a wire to each of the rails and then connect those wires to the Power Pack. It is that simple to start with.

(2) Track plan: I want to minimize the time necessary to get to the stage where a train is actually running. I really like the idea of buying a package deal that has already been planned out, refined, and the parts collected, like that Altas offers. However, I've read here that track availability and quality may not be the best with Atlas. I don't have to have "the best" and my goal is not to have a mirror image of real life, but rather enjoy a fun project that my son can really participate in while remembering great family time in Alaska. That means the train and track must work, but don't have to made of solid gold, if you catch my drift. In particular, we were looking at Atlas plans HO-10, 22, or maybe 16. I'm sure there are many other options, too- the important thing is that it should fit in the room (room dimensions 13' x 12') and still allow for bed and furniture, so I'm thinking maximum table size is 13' x 6'. Also, it would be nice to be able to run two trains on it at once so both sons can participate. Also, we plan on passenger cars so need adequate space for those turns, whatever "adequate" might be!

It isn't any secret that I am not an Atlas fan and prefer Peco Track, but that is neither here nor there at the moment. You really have two choices, buy a "Train Set" that you pull out of the box, set up and run OR design your own to meet your requirements and by the track needed for that design.

Personally, if you are looking at a 13' X 6' layout - design your own, cos I doubt you'll find an out of the box set up that will utilize a layout of those dimensions, and buy the track as needed for that design. Take the time NOW to make a couple of decisions though:

1. What type of track do you want to use Sectional Track or Flex Track
2. What track manufacturer do you want
3. The design of your layout to meet your needs

Here is a good FREE design program made by Mixy, one of the members here:

http://www.scarm.info/index_en.html

As said, take the time now to make those initial decisions (and probably a host of others) then go about putting your layout together. In short "DON'T RUSH" it.

One son is 6 and he really is excited about this project, but if the trains don't actually run before he's 17, I think he'll lose interest and the project will be a failure. I don't want that. Would appreciate any and all advice regarding "getting started" information and resources, and maybe some estimation of time commitment to get to a running status. Many thanks!

One of the things you will come to learn is that a layout is NEVER finished, even when you think it is, it wont be because thre will be something that you will want to add, delete, change etc etc etc!

Once you know what you want and have (for example) the bench work completed, a DCC or DC System, Track an engine or two and some rolling stock for them to pull - you could probably flat lay your track and having it running in a day or two or three, definitely within the week anyway Doing things WITH your layout such as putting in hills, tunnels, bridges, gradients etc does take time, wont lie to you there, but doesn't take years either.

How long it takes for you to get your layout operational depends on what you want to do with it, and how want it to look at the end of the day. To get a layout up and running sooner rather than later then I would suggest that you get and do the above things, then take your time putting in your track work to include gradients etc. Once your track work is in, pretty much every thing else like the scenery (the fun part) can be done around the track work while you get the fun out of having your trains running. In order to do that though, you will need to know what you want and build your bench work substrate and gradients to accommodate it. The longest part of the process could well be in designing what you initially want.

Don't forget also that other things come in to play - time and money being the two main causes of a delay. Bottom line is to do it right and to do it right the first time and don't rush anything. If you do that, you and you sons will enjoy the hobby and building your layout together over time

Hope this helps and I haven't confused you or made things sounds harder than what they really are. Number ONE rule here is a simple one - ASK QUESTIONS, any questions ohh and post lots of pictures of what you are doing.

 

[marriedshades]

First off relax take a deep breath this is fun i say if you got the funds tp start with dcc get a good starter box to help keep your son interested you can use the parts from this on you full layout later. i would look at online at the varies coupanys for that or go to a train hobby shop your new best freinds if you have one close and rember this fun

 

[Yankeedave23]

If you are thinking about a solid 13x6 table layout you need to consider the ability to reach different parts of the layout.

Sounds like a fun project!

I am in the beginning stages of planning my new layout as well..... so many options!

 

[goscrewyourselves]

If you are thinking about a solid 13x6 table layout you need to consider the ability to reach different parts of the layout.

Sounds like a fun project!

I am in the beginning stages of planning my new layout as well..... so many options!

Couldn't agree more; however, it is not the physical size of the bench work that needs to be taken into account as much as the location on that bench work of the track.

On my current layout, one corner is about 50 or so inches away, the track work though is within my reaching distance. The area behind the track work is only scenery.