ThoroughBreed
Dcc~detail~diesel freak
Would the Santa Fe had run F7 A-B-B-B's in passenger warbonnet service?
AT&SF F-unit passenger question
- Thread starter ThoroughBreed
- Start date
ThoroughBreed
Dcc~detail~diesel freak
I found 2 pics on rrpicarchives showing 2 b's, but that was in amtrak service.
Maybe at the end of passenger service but definitely not in the beginning. They would need to turn the entire set if they didn't have a spare A unit on hand.
They wouldn't just turn the A and stick it on the other end?
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
I think that it would be easier to turn the whole set because they wouldn't have to disconnect all those hoses between the A and the first B.
But I have never seen pics of those units without an A on each end. Living in 'Bama, that's the only references I can go by.
But I have never seen pics of those units without an A on each end. Living in 'Bama, that's the only references I can go by.
Given all the work required to do that very doubtful. If fact very doubtful they would have sent an ABB consist in the first place because of all the work (read time & money) required at the other end.
The certainly did! Though ABA and ABBA sets were common in the early years, with the passage of time sets were broken up and what ever was available was used to get the train where it needed to go.
Pages 232-233 of Chard Walker's "Cajon, Rail Passage to the Pacific" show a nice ABBB set on the head of #20, the "Chief" in 1968.
Nothing beats a library of real books!
The certainly did! Though ABA and ABBA sets were common in the early years, with the passage of time sets were broken up and what ever was available was used to get the train where it needed to go.
Pages 232-233 of Chard Walker's "Cajon, Rail Passage to the Pacific" show a nice ABBB set on the head of #20, the "Chief" in 1968.
Nothing beats a library of real books!
Except maybe a digital version that is searchable and share-able on the internet
Any chance you could make a scan or photo of that page and attach it here?
Except maybe a digital version that is searchable and share-able on the internet
Any chance you could make a scan or photo of that page and attach it here?
You would still have to pay to access such material. After all, the publishers aren't in business to enrich you free of charge!
Sorry, no I can't scan and post the photo. You see there's this thing called copyright law....
Signature Press would probably take issue with me for doing so, and the owners of this forum for allowing it . You'll have to buy the book or visit your friendly public library and check it out there...or take my word for it OBTW: ABBBA sets of F's were also used, and the Santa Fe even ran sets of ABBBA PAs/PBs. That must have been awesome to see!
Iron Horseman
Well-Known Member
What would have been heavy enough to demand that much power? An ABA set was strong enough to get a 20 car overweight Mail & Express over Raton. And that was even before they reduced the grades at the summit. Santa Fe generally just ran extra trains (IE 2 or 3 sections of the Chiefs) instead of making one train longer.
Cajon maybe? I don't recall why, but I have seen photos in my Sante Fe books of these consists. 10,000 HP for an ABBBA set of six axle Alcos is really something, but it did happen. Somewhere someone decided it was cheaper to tack a few extra cars and locos on a train than to run a second train I guess. The previously mentioned Cajon book shows ABBBA consists of F units.
Follow up: 5 unit consist of F's were used on the Chief and the Grand Canyon. ABBBA; AABBA ABBB lashups were used on the Texas Chief and the Kansas Cityan. ABBBB units were used on the San Francisco Chief and the Grand Canyon. ABABA on the Grand Canyon. AABA Alco PA/PBs on No.7. ABBA PA/PBs on No.4. AABBB F's on the SuperChief/El Capitan. AABBA PA/PB's on the San Francisco Chief. The biggest one so far: ABBAABB F's on the Grand Canyon at Summit!
This happened lots more than you might think. Photos can be seen in the Morning Sun Santa Fe books, 1940-1971 Volumes 1-4.
Lash 'em up!
This happened lots more than you might think. Photos can be seen in the Morning Sun Santa Fe books, 1940-1971 Volumes 1-4.
Lash 'em up!
Burlington Bob
Well-Known Member
I would love to bave been able to see them in person...............of course that would make me quite a bit older than I am now..............but considering everything that I missed out on from those days.............it just might be worth it!
Iron Horseman
Well-Known Member
Yes, those were common on all trains over Raton. I've got pictures of the El Cap, Super, Fast Mail and Express, and I believe the Grand Canyon in that configuration. AABBA was the most common because they just threw an extra A on the point in either Trinidad or Raton depending on the direction of the train. While Raton was the only 3.5% grade I am certain they were common in the California mountain passes as well.
How many cars in the train? Can you tell? Are there a lot of heavy-weight baggage, express boxes or other front end cars on it?
In freight I've got a video of a train going through Trinidad I believe that has 13 units on it. I would have to watch again to get the combination but they just kept going and going.
I think there might be a big percentage of pictures of unusual lashups just because they were that - unusual. Having lived along the northern main line in various places (Newton KS to Lamar CO.) in the early 1960's, I can say very seldom did a train have more than 4 F's on the passengers. Of course that was on the plains before La Junta where sometimes extra power was added for Raton. I never figured out when and why power was sometimes added in La Junta and other times in Trinidad.
Also of course in Newton the parade of varnish came through at the early hours of the morning (about 4:00 a.m. for the Super), so I didn't see near as many there as in Granada or Lamar.
Nope. It's a head end shot and all you see is the power with the train going out of the frame. It does make sense that there would be a large amount of head end traffic though.
I find that hard to believe. There are just too many instances of it, and Morning Sun generally solicits photos from well known rail photographers and collectors, so I believe that the books are a generally accurate snapshot of what went on. this is another instance of "Never say Never!!
Iron Horseman
Well-Known Member
I still say no. I did not say never. I have several Santa Fe book with some really interesting things, on closer examination all the pictures are of the same train taken by different people along the line. It was interesting and different so there are lots of pictures of it. Everyone ignored the 20 "normal" trains that went by that same day.I find that hard to believe. There are just too many instances of it, and Morning Sun generally solicits photos from well known rail photographers and collectors, so I believe that the books are a generally accurate snapshot of what went on. this is another instance of "Never say Never!!
Another example - what is the most popular Union Pacific locomotive? Oh yes the Big Boy. While the railroad had hundreds of Consolidated, Mikado, and Pacific class locomotives there are by percentage more photos of the Big Boys, Challengers, Gas Electrics, and 9000 class. Why? Because they were more interesting. Almost every UP layout I've been to or operated on has multiples of these more rare locos and exotic and many fewer common GP9s or F7s.... No similarity of reality, in fact the opposite of reality.
You are welcome to your theory. I will stick with the facts The photos I cited were all of different trains and taken on different dates. Long lashups also appear in Chard Walker's Cajon book (both printings) often enough to kill the thought that this was extremely rare. Walker was a Santa Fe employee living in the high desert, and his photos are a daily documentary of what happened there. The theory should fit the facts. The facts should not be cherry picked to fit the theory, don't you think? It is also true that not all RR books are created equal. There are good ones and not so good ones. I suggest you go over to the Yahoo Santa Fe list and talk to the gurus there. One of the big problems was the limitations of the early EMD 567 engines. Remember that a good sized 4-8-4 could develop some 6,000 HP. it took four F units to equal this. Double heading steamers was common enough, so how many F's would it take to equal the output of two of the big 4-8-4's they ran?
The photos I cited were all of different trains and taken on different dates. Long lashups also appear in Chard Walker's Cajon book (both printings) often enough to kill the thought that this was extremely rare. Walker was a Santa Fe employee living in the high desert, and his photos are a daily documentary of what happened there. The theory should fit the facts. The facts should not be cherry picked to fit the theory, don't you think? It is also true that not all RR books are created equal. There are good ones and not so good ones. I suggest you go over to the Yahoo Santa Fe list and talk to the gurus there. One of the big problems was the limitations of the early EMD 567 engines. Remember that a good sized 4-8-4 could develop some 6,000 HP. it took four F units to equal this. Double heading steamers was common enough, so how many F's would it take to equal the output of two of the big 4-8-4's they ran?