Anyone do their own photo-etches?
- Thread starter fast_ian
- Start date
OK, some initial impressions;
- I think this thing is actually a very good value! - Sure, now I've got it it would be possible to copy it and hash some stuff together, but this has been very well thought out and executed - They obviously developed the kit over some time and with lots of experimentation.
- It's *almost* worth it for the instructions alone! Some of the best I've ever read..... No shoddy Chinese translations, just very well written and concise step-by-step details. "Critical" processes are highlighted and explained in brief. Very, very well done IMHO. Having said that, the manual still runs to 10 pages of pretty small text and over 20 photos! - This is not a job for the feint of heart!
- It's possible to go up to ~6"x4" if needed - However, the work is then etched vertically, and they recommend ~3"x3" as that mounts horizontally in the tank.
- The inkjet film is unlike anything I've ever seen - It's a translucent blue color and (assuming the printer can do it) will generate lines down to 0.007" width.
- It will also handle up to 0.015" thick materials, but again they recommend against it (unless you're doing PCB's) due to long etch times.
Could I have saved a few bucks by DIY? Probably, but add the time driving to the plastics store, the chemical store, the aquarium store and so on and I'm very satisfied with the purchase - At least for now!
Gonna attack the grilles on the shell and make a template for the Ford grille out of thin styrene to transfer to the artwork.
Cheers,
Ian
- I think this thing is actually a very good value! - Sure, now I've got it it would be possible to copy it and hash some stuff together, but this has been very well thought out and executed - They obviously developed the kit over some time and with lots of experimentation.
- It's *almost* worth it for the instructions alone! Some of the best I've ever read..... No shoddy Chinese translations, just very well written and concise step-by-step details. "Critical" processes are highlighted and explained in brief. Very, very well done IMHO. Having said that, the manual still runs to 10 pages of pretty small text and over 20 photos! - This is not a job for the feint of heart!
- It's possible to go up to ~6"x4" if needed - However, the work is then etched vertically, and they recommend ~3"x3" as that mounts horizontally in the tank.
- The inkjet film is unlike anything I've ever seen - It's a translucent blue color and (assuming the printer can do it) will generate lines down to 0.007" width.
- It will also handle up to 0.015" thick materials, but again they recommend against it (unless you're doing PCB's) due to long etch times.
Could I have saved a few bucks by DIY? Probably, but add the time driving to the plastics store, the chemical store, the aquarium store and so on and I'm very satisfied with the purchase - At least for now!
Gonna attack the grilles on the shell and make a template for the Ford grille out of thin styrene to transfer to the artwork.
Cheers,
Ian
tankist
Active Member
you would have saved half at least, but that does not matter anymore. with that
are you sure its the printer film? photo-resist film is blue. you not supposed to handle it other then immediately laminate it into washed and dried material. you want to minimize any exposure until when you develop the pattern in UV box.
are you sure its the printer film? photo-resist film is blue. you not supposed to handle it other then immediately laminate it into washed and dried material. you want to minimize any exposure until when you develop the pattern in UV box.
We beg to differ there, but that's fine
are you sure its the printer film?
Yep! - The photo resist is rolled up in a black "xray safe" style bag with a big 'ol warning on it about not exposing it to light - I had a quick look in very dim light to make sure it was there, but certainly haven't exposed it!All they say about the inkjet film is it was "specially developed for printing high resolution, dense black images with ink jet printers only. Also, we do not recommend any of the inkjet films available at office supply stores. They simply will not produce the high resolution required for fine line photo-etching."
But it is "funky" looking stuff (and I've handled *lots* of photo films) - I think it's designed to be super fast drying so the ink dries almost as soon as it touches it rather than getting a chance to bleed.
Cheers,
Ian
I tell you what - If you can put an equivalent kit together, documented & critiqued herein, at "less than half", I'll buy it from you........
Or someone else will - Micromark set the price of entry at ~$120, if you can do the same thing - including some good instructions - for $60 + shipping I'm sure there are many here that would be interested......
I'll even give you a head start - Here's the complete parts list;
2 sheets ink jet film 8-1/2 x 11
2 plexiglass sheets
1 roll dry photoresist, 12 x 19
1 instruction manual
2 white carrier sheets
16oz ferric chloride solution
1 etching tank with lid
4 spring type clamps
1 tubing pinch clamp
1 1/8" id rubber tube
1 air pump
16oz sodium hydroxide solution
1 polishing pad, 2x2
1 utility brush
1 .005" brass sheet
1 .005" S/S sheet
2 plastic trays
1 acrylic rod with holder attached
1 aerator
1 plastic tweezer
1 plastic apron
1 pr latex gloves
1 plastic goggles
1 small measuring cup
1 black O-ring
1 plastic sheet, 7" x 11"
Cheers,
Ian
tankist
Active Member
i see you feel very strongly about it. hmmm... ok then.
look carefully at your list. clips? tweezers? Apron? gloves? half of the things you already have in your household or can substitute for something you already have. you seriously need some one to provide you with a brush and a small measuring cup? consumables (metal, photo-resist, film) are enough for couple attempts, you will need to source those anyways pretty soon. you will need to spend precious fuel and drive to pet store anyways - the kit is missing heater for the etching solution (etching gets much better at well above room temperatures). while you on the way there, pick up the etching chemical at your nearest radio-shack. and you still need to build UV exposure box. the only thing of essence here is laminator. true it is not a common one, but even that is not something that is unique.
not everything is measured in "If you can put an equivalent kit together". I have no interest in doing that. and in this case I do not see much demand either as i don't know many fishermen who buy their equipment in form of wall-mart "everything you need for fishing!" kits. to wall-mart defense those are at least dirt cheap, wheres Micromark price is derived from their usual "slap that ridiculous price tag" policy. (just like with their 20$ "spike remover" pliers).
bottom line, if you feel you got your money worth, great. enjoy the kit (and i am very interested seeing your results). for my 120$ i expect to see more substance.
PS
for the "oops" there is Edit button
look carefully at your list. clips? tweezers? Apron? gloves? half of the things you already have in your household or can substitute for something you already have. you seriously need some one to provide you with a brush and a small measuring cup? consumables (metal, photo-resist, film) are enough for couple attempts, you will need to source those anyways pretty soon. you will need to spend precious fuel and drive to pet store anyways - the kit is missing heater for the etching solution (etching gets much better at well above room temperatures). while you on the way there, pick up the etching chemical at your nearest radio-shack. and you still need to build UV exposure box. the only thing of essence here is laminator. true it is not a common one, but even that is not something that is unique.
not everything is measured in "If you can put an equivalent kit together". I have no interest in doing that. and in this case I do not see much demand either as i don't know many fishermen who buy their equipment in form of wall-mart "everything you need for fishing!" kits. to wall-mart defense those are at least dirt cheap, wheres Micromark price is derived from their usual "slap that ridiculous price tag" policy. (just like with their 20$ "spike remover" pliers).
bottom line, if you feel you got your money worth, great. enjoy the kit (and i am very interested seeing your results). for my 120$ i expect to see more substance.
PS
for the "oops" there is Edit button
We're obviously coming at this from different angles - And that's fine, I asked the initial question, and differing viewpoints are always good. But, you seem to be suggesting I'm some kind of crazy spend thrift and could have (easily) done it for "less than half" - I asked for details as to how in order to help others save their money....... Sure, there are some $ store items in there, but as a whole they've obviously done a bunch of research & development on it to get it such that a beginner has a solid, workable, solution - I'll pay a little extra for that.
Furthermore;
I have enough of *everything* (metal, film, resist, carrier sheets, chemicals, etc) to do at least a dozen 3x3's. Should keep me going for a good long while.
The "UV box" is made up of the plexiglass sheets (perfectly sized & finished btw) and the clamps. *Nothing* else needed!
The instructions say to heat the etchant up in a microwave (!! or decant to glass and immerse in hot water). Their instructions don't suggest a heater - As a beginner I'm gonna follow what they say - At least for now.
Fair enough. I do feel I got my moneys worth, and have tried to explain why I believe that. - Once (if?) my experience leads me to other solutions, great, but as a beginner, as noted above, the instructions were almost worth the cost of entry!.....
Cheers,
Ian
Furthermore;
I have enough of *everything* (metal, film, resist, carrier sheets, chemicals, etc) to do at least a dozen 3x3's. Should keep me going for a good long while.
The "UV box" is made up of the plexiglass sheets (perfectly sized & finished btw) and the clamps. *Nothing* else needed!
The instructions say to heat the etchant up in a microwave (!! or decant to glass and immerse in hot water). Their instructions don't suggest a heater - As a beginner I'm gonna follow what they say - At least for now.
Fair enough. I do feel I got my moneys worth, and have tried to explain why I believe that. - Once (if?) my experience leads me to other solutions, great, but as a beginner, as noted above, the instructions were almost worth the cost of entry!.....
Cheers,
Ian
tankist
Active Member
since they don't provide one with the kit it is obvious they not going to mention it. but solution works significantly faster and in more consistent way when warm. one might say even "works only when warm" unless etching times of several hours are intended. and whatever their instructions say there is no way i'm putting ferric chloride in my microwave for a second. this DIY Etchant tank runs laps around the square one included in kit and its barely one evening project.
Sunlight is needed. sunlight tends to be very scarce after 9PM and i tend to have time for my hobbies only after kid gets to bed. and then there are those cloudy and rainy days. UV box is also a very simple thing to make and plenty of DIY instructions exist.
besides, MM's cheap solution of holding clips might lead to defects in exposure. if the clips are not positioned on material they bow the acrylic up creating a possibility of film not being completely pressed against detail. as result the exposure in middle area is not precise with light partially getting under the film creating rough, "chewed upon" edges.
MM's research and development is obviously limited to researching where to cut corners and which Chinese company makes the cheapest laminators and aprons. the process of both etching and photo-developing is documented quite well thanks to all hobbyists who do their own PCBs for decades.
What i'm suggesting is that you got carried away and while looking at the forest failed to recognize the individual trees. if this offends you in any way i apologize.
regards.
Firstly, no offense taken or apologies needed - A good, open debate is always the best!
You obviously know more about this subject than I - and for that reason at least I appreciate your comments (Really!) They do say it's probably best to use a "shop" microwave, but that they've even suggested it means the bottle better not explode!........
I'm not so sure - Again, I could be wrong, but PCB's are a significantly different beast to 0.007 thick lines with "sharp" edges in 0.005 material - The reason they did a square tank is to allow a 3x3 to be held horizontally above the aerator (back or half etch side to be mounted up) - they've found it works best that way with very fine lines. Uneven etching (as likely when mounted vertically) is not as much of an issue with a PCB of course.
And I suspect there's a fair few hours involved in building it - Whatever floats your boat! I want to be using it, not building and "debugging" it.
Their instructions suggest 15 seconds under a cloudless noonday sun, and adding 5 seconds for each hour before or after..... [Did I mention their instructions were pretty darn good?] They also give an exposure time of 10 mins (per side) under a soft white, 100W bulb at (IIRC) 4".
You could be right! - However, having it my hands suggests not - 5thou of material plus another 2-3thou (?) of resist sandwiched (solidly, given the clamps!) between 2 x 1/4" plexiglass sheets is pretty darn solid! At least they've made it work.....
Cheers,
Ian
You obviously know more about this subject than I - and for that reason at least I appreciate your comments (Really!
) They do say it's probably best to use a "shop" microwave, but that they've even suggested it means the bottle better not explode!........I'm not so sure - Again, I could be wrong, but PCB's are a significantly different beast to 0.007 thick lines with "sharp" edges in 0.005 material - The reason they did a square tank is to allow a 3x3 to be held horizontally above the aerator (back or half etch side to be mounted up) - they've found it works best that way with very fine lines. Uneven etching (as likely when mounted vertically) is not as much of an issue with a PCB of course.
And I suspect there's a fair few hours involved in building it - Whatever floats your boat! I want to be using it, not building and "debugging" it.
Their instructions suggest 15 seconds under a cloudless noonday sun, and adding 5 seconds for each hour before or after..... [Did I mention their instructions were pretty darn good?
] They also give an exposure time of 10 mins (per side) under a soft white, 100W bulb at (IIRC) 4". You could be right! - However, having it my hands suggests not - 5thou of material plus another 2-3thou (?) of resist sandwiched (solidly, given the clamps!) between 2 x 1/4" plexiglass sheets is pretty darn solid! At least they've made it work.....
Cheers,
Ian
Something of an update;
- Printed the artwork onto the "real" film, and it does indeed produce a much "denser" and sharper output than standard film.
- Registration was easy given their instructions.
- Clamped & exposed to CA sun for ~20 seconds - The images transferred beautifully
From the instructions;
I over did the developing! [I removed some of the hardened lines] - Maybe my developer was too warm, maybe I brushed it too hard/long, but I'm back at square one!........
*Almost*, but no cigar this time round!
The good news is the brass (etches faster than stainless?) can be cleaned up and re-used - The only stuff I've "wasted" is a couple of pieces of PR material, 1/2oz of developer and (maybe) the carrier sheets - No big deal.........
*Next* time I'll get 'er right!
Cheers,
Ian
- Printed the artwork onto the "real" film, and it does indeed produce a much "denser" and sharper output than standard film.
- Registration was easy given their instructions.
- Clamped & exposed to CA sun for ~20 seconds - The images transferred beautifully
From the instructions;
I over did the developing!
[I removed some of the hardened lines] - Maybe my developer was too warm, maybe I brushed it too hard/long, but I'm back at square one!........*Almost*, but no cigar this time round!
The good news is the brass (etches faster than stainless?) can be cleaned up and re-used - The only stuff I've "wasted" is a couple of pieces of PR material, 1/2oz of developer and (maybe) the carrier sheets - No big deal.........
*Next* time I'll get 'er right!
Cheers,
Ian
Something of an update;
....
*Next* time I'll get 'er right!
Update, part 2;
Cut back on the developing, and got a reasonable looking workpiece. [I cut their recommended time in about half!]
Heated the FC (without mishap in the microwave!) and went with their "5 minutes then have a look" approach - Not bad!
Put it back (rotated 90degs) for another 5 mins, rotate, + 5mins - Oh dear!.....
It was certainly working, if anything a little too well! Bits were falling off!
I did salvage a few useable pieces, but now (think!) I know how to modify my artwork - For example the grille without "outside" supports turned into a sea anemone! I reckon it etched it down to about 2thou!.... I'm seriously thinking that in my climate (~70 degs today) I want to *slow* the process down some - "Warm" (almost hot!) etchant went to work a little too well!
My little (back side only) "support triangles" need to be bigger, and I reckon on both sides.
For a first attempt, I'm almost satisfied - The big circles & the "F"s (and a few of the "ords"!) came out pretty good. Most of the straight lines were OK, but I certainly need to;
1 - Update the artwork
2 - Not etch for as long!
Is anyone even still reading this nausea?
Cheers,
Ian
tomstockton
Tom Stockton
Ian,
I am reading these posts, and don't consider them a mess at all. Dabbling in photo etch is something I've thought about since the first time I saw the kit in Micro Mark's catalog. I've just never had a "pressing" need for a particular piece of photo etch, or felt like spending that amount of money to just play around.
But if I can get some reviews (like yours), I'd be more inclined to give photo etching a try.
Keep the posts coming!
Regards,
Tom Stockton
I am reading these posts, and don't consider them a mess at all. Dabbling in photo etch is something I've thought about since the first time I saw the kit in Micro Mark's catalog. I've just never had a "pressing" need for a particular piece of photo etch, or felt like spending that amount of money to just play around.
But if I can get some reviews (like yours), I'd be more inclined to give photo etching a try.
Keep the posts coming!
Regards,
Tom Stockton
*Thankyou*!
As noted earlier, there don't seem to be any "reviews" out there, and I was kinda hoping a little interest may have been shown - "Encouragement" really does make a difference - Thx again!
Err, I posted 3-4 different revisions of the artwork in the other thread, and almost begged for comments from anyone who's "been there, done that", without anyone saying anything - So I figured why bother?
- Maybe, I'm the only one who's trying their own etches
- Maybe (as postulated way back), anyone who tries gets killed by the chemicals
- Maybe, nobody gives a damn, and I am indeed a crazy spendthrift.
As for posting results - I really haven't got any yet. [Again, why bother?]
Having said that, I left what was left of it in the sun all afternoon - I'll give everyone a laugh and post what it looks like after I switch 'puters.
Cheers,
Ian
.... I'll give everyone a laugh and post what it looks like after I switch 'puters.
"The camera never lies!"
- The first two are pix (not png's) of the artwork (rev10 iirc)
- The 3rd is one of the "big" circles, burnished, hanging on the H/L housing......
- The last shows the "fidelity" that's possible - The tiny "hole" in the "F" is *beautiful*.......
Cheers,
Ian
"The camera never lies!"
A last one with plexiglass over the whole thing and after I'd poked at it.....
My *guess* is it was an unknown combination of;
- Etchant too warm
- Etchant too agitated (It was bubblin' pretty good there for a while!)
- Work too long in etchant - Once it started to go, it went fast!......
Anyone got any ideas?
Cheers,
Ian
PS - It appears particularly gnarly for two reasons; I never removed the resist, and it sat outside all PM
So, looking at what got produced, along with some professional PE parts I've got suggests;
- A smaller workpiece - I think #1 got almost "sand blasted" by the aerator.
- I've also put a flow control valve in the airline to dial it back a little.
- Also added an inline (table lamp style) switch in the power lead - Going to the floor to unplug it seemed like a recipe for disaster......
Does anyone know if it's possible to get "clear" (or at least not Guinness colored!) ferric chloride? [It would be so much easier if I could see the work in place.....]
Etch#2 artwork will appear in the other thread "soon".......
Cheers,
Ian
- A smaller workpiece - I think #1 got almost "sand blasted" by the aerator.
- I've also put a flow control valve in the airline to dial it back a little.
- Also added an inline (table lamp style) switch in the power lead - Going to the floor to unplug it seemed like a recipe for disaster......
Does anyone know if it's possible to get "clear" (or at least not Guinness colored!) ferric chloride? [It would be so much easier if I could see the work in place.....]
Etch#2 artwork will appear in the other thread "soon".......
Cheers,
Ian
At the recommendation of the kit manufacturer of my recently completed grain storage, I used PCB etching solution from Radio Shack to age the roof. I let the metal roof parts sit in the solution for about 3 minutes. It got really hot. Any longer than that and it would eat through the metal. I don't know if this is more aggressive than what you're using, but if it's the same stuff it might make for a good source. I found mine locally, but they also have it online:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102868
I have been watching your progress with great interest as this is something I've been considering doing myself. I'm sure glad you're working out all the bugs
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102868
I have been watching your progress with great interest as this is something I've been considering doing myself. I'm sure glad you're working out all the bugs
It looks the same - I've found it's not hard to find. But, what "color" is it? [Can you see your work when it's submerged?]
I'm sure glad you're working out all the bugs
Thanks!
All part of the fun!......
Cheers,
Ian
PS - A review in the link above suggested checking out the "Edinburgh etch" A quick Google turned up:
More research.......
