Feeders... am I doing something wrong?


DairyStateDad

DairyStateDad

Mumbling in the corner
I am soldering feeders to my PECO switches. I wanted to test to make sure that the connections were solid. I hooked up the feeders to an inexpensive DC HO power pack. Then, using my multimeter, I ran current through the feeders and put the multimeter leads to the respective rails of the switch. These are insulfrog switches meaning they are not power routing. But here is what happens. The multimeter shows current only through the rails that are not the route the switch is set to.

I am attaching several images. The first shows the underside of the switch so that you see how the feeders are soldered. Subsequent pictures show the multimeter readings for each route. Because there are more than four pictures I believe I will have to put some of the images in a reply to this initial post.

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Here is the underside showing the feeders where they are soldered to the turnout.

Below are pictures of the turnout feeders hooked up to the power pack. With each picture, note the position of the points, the route that is being tested with the multimeter, and the multimeter readings.

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[Continued in next post]
 
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Ignore the third picture in the previous post that is the middle of the 3 pictures bunched together.

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Now to make it clear why I don't understand what is going on here: I was expecting current to go through either route no matter which way the points were thrown, both because of the way I soldered the feeders and because these are not power-routing turnouts.

So is something wrong here with the way I have soldered them, or is everything fine and I just misunderstand what's supposed to be happening?

I was planning to solder feeders on a bunch more turnouts tonight, but now I'm at a standstill for fear that I'm screwing it up. I welcome your insights.
 
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ERIC- If you are trying to measure DC volts, then the meter should be set to 20 Volts DC, as it looks now, you are measuring DC Amps.

Cheers
Mel
 
I'm trying to measure current through the track. The directions said to turn it to 10A.

Also, I did put a cheap switcher on the track. It picks up power only on the route the switch is not set to.

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Mel, I did what you said, and indeed I do get voltage in either route.

So thank you. Except now I am even more confused

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DairyStateDad said:
Mel, I did what you said, and indeed I do get voltage in either route.

So thank you. Except now I am even more confused

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Click to expand...
Huh. Now the switcher is working fine on either route. It's beginning to look like the problem is totally operator error but at least the feeders seem to be adequately soldered.

[emoji50]

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In the meantime, I have probably ruined one switch. Maybe two. Hate soldering.

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It looks right to me Erik. If it works now chalk it up to gremlins I guess?
Yeah soldering isn't my forte either!
 
Peco insulfrog ARE power routing. Many argue that they are not, but Peco themselves state on their website that they are.
 
Peco insulfrogs are power routing, but they do this through the contact of the moveable point rails to the outer stock rail, i.e. whichever entire point rail, through it's metal pivot, is in contact with a stock rail, will be charged from that stock rail, right up to the frog.

The other point rail will be without power (dead). By connecting both the outer fixed and inner fixed/moveable point rails as you have by bridging with your wire, all the rails in the turnout are now live with their respective outer stock rails polarity. There is nothing wrong with this, as it does eliminate the insulfrog's weakness i.e. loss of power to the inner rails if the point contact is bad to the outer stock rail. Sometimes happens over time and usage.
 
Another point (pardon the pun), you can only measure amperage if there is something in the circuit that is using power i.e. a motor or light bulb. The reason you can measure voltage, is it represents the "pressure" of the electricity being applied, whereas the amperage is the amount flowing.

I find it's easiest to think of electricity as water through a tap or pipe. Your water supply will be at a constant pressure, say 50PSI, that equals Volts. The flow out the tap will depend on how much you open it i.e. pints/gallons per minute= amperage.
 
So, here's the latest.
1) I think the original problem may have been inadequate soldering after all. Recall that each feeder connected to two rails, not just one. Or rather, was supposed to. A close inspection showed that only the inner rail actually had a firm contact.

So with much wailing and gnashing of teeth I started over and managed to get it right. And redid another turnout with the same deficiency.

2) Genetk44, the reason I worried I had ruined one of the turnouts was that the ties got badly melted where the feeders are. Also a big blob of solder wound up on one of the rails. And on the inside (i.e. flange side). Fortunately I was able to clean it off, partly with the iron and partly with my needle file. When I install it I will check it again to be sure it's not a derailment hazard. And despite the melting ties, the rails appear to have stayed in gauge. Fortunately these turnouts won't be visible, so that's something, anyway.

One challenge is making sure the wire actually stays in contact with the rail after I remove the iron. I used a screwdriver to hold it, which helped. I'm thinking some wooden coffee stirrers might be another option.

So for now I managed OK. Hoping that the learning curve on these flattens out soon...
 
Hi,

Due to the problems that can happen when soldering to rails with plastic ties I invested in a resistance soldering unit.

When using the "tweezers" hand piece I can squeeze the wire to the rail and the nature of resistance soldering concentrates the heat at the junction of the two.

I get consistently good connections, quickly, with no visible melting of the ties.

Somewhat costly but made the work go so much better.

Frederick
 
Try tinning the rail first, as you've done to the wire. Clean the area on the rail base with some fine sandpaper or file. I have a tube of rosin paste from Caddy Shack that I put a spot of onto the surface I want to tin, makes things go quicker and easier.
 
Well, I will try tinning the rails next.

Frederick... is a tweezer soldering iron enough? Resistance soldering units are really expensive!

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Does the soldering kit come with a single point soldering iron as well, because the tweezer points are meant for say, soldering/de-soldering small components from circuit boards etc, where there is no heat sink effect (the rail) involved. You need a single tip iron with the chisel point to heat the rail to a state where the solder will melt onto it before or at the same time as the wire. For a novice, especially where you have things like plastic ties close nearby, it will be tricky. This is actually where a higher wattage iron works best as it can heat a spot more quickly, allowing the wire to be secured before too much heat spreads through the rail and blowing or cooling with a wet cloth once the joint is made.

I always suggest to learners to use the bottom of an empty tin can to practice on. It will act as a heat sink and allows you to become more familiar with how much soldering iron contact is needed to effect a good joint.
 
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tootnkumin said:
Try tinning the rail first, as you've done to the wire. Clean the area on the rail base with some fine sandpaper or file. I have a tube of rosin paste from Caddy Shack that I put a spot of onto the surface I want to tin, makes things go quicker and easier.
Click to expand...

Toot speaks wisdom. Soldering is just about a bit of practise and some good observation. Tinning the tip of the iron and the pieces you are soldering before joining them is definately top of the list, as is some good flux. Keep the iron-tip clean of burnt material and be sure to use a higher wattage iron....I'd say the 25 watt ones are the lowest wattage you want to go. Resistance soldering units are very cool...and just the ticket if your building white-metal or brass kits but a bit of overkill for the badic model railroad soldering most of us do.

here are two how-to videos from an undoubted master....the first one is really the one to pay attention to...

http://help.fast-tracks.net/customer/en/portal/articles/2431478-soldering-basics
http://help.fast-tracks.net/custome...164-soldering-trackwork-using-acid-based-flux
 
DairyStateDad said:
Well, I will try tinning the rails next.

Frederick... is a tweezer soldering iron enough? Resistance soldering units are really expensive!

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Click to expand...

That's what I use and it works fine. I chose the tweezer hand piece BECAUSE it concentrates the heat due to the two small contact areas.

And don't overlook the fact that the "tweezers" hold the wire to the rail before, during and after - no movement of the connection is a "good thing".

The "control unit" has a max rating of 250 watts but I dial it down to around 40-50.

Yes they are expensive but when compared to the cost of our hobby as a whole it doesn't seem so bad.

I had my own electronics R&D firm for many years and during that time I did hundreds of hours of soldering.

I can solder feeders to rails using an iron or a gun.

But the resistance unit is much faster and easier.

Frederick
 
Thanks for all the input. I have been using flux and do try to keep the tip clean. I'm going to look for a chisel tip that is more suitable than the one I have (and that I didn't use after the first try because it was too fat for the space between the ties).

A question about tinning....

If I tin the rail, and I tin the wire, do I need any more solder behind what has been applied to the rail and the wire? Or do I just rely on the solder applied in the tinning stage to make the bond once I connect rail and wire together?
 
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