Lionel HO GP-9 "GM 50" Chessie / B&O
- Thread starter Bruette
- Start date
Bruette
Well-Known Member
Thank you very much for the information.
They also used a Lionel drive with a GE motor, do you have any information about those drives and motors? I have read they are not much better then the Kader-Bachman units, but I don't have any first hand knowledge of either.
I am guessing the Kader-Bachman unit would be easier to get parts for, what do you think?
Thank you again for taking time to help me, I do appreciate it.
They also used a Lionel drive with a GE motor, do you have any information about those drives and motors? I have read they are not much better then the Kader-Bachman units, but I don't have any first hand knowledge of either.
I am guessing the Kader-Bachman unit would be easier to get parts for, what do you think?
Thank you again for taking time to help me, I do appreciate it.
Bruette
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your input and the information about the Athearn.
I will keep looking for the Lionel and once I determine the value and the drive I'd prefer I will buy it and let you know.
Thanks again
I will keep looking for the Lionel and once I determine the value and the drive I'd prefer I will buy it and let you know.
Thanks again
jayl1
Member
Getting parts for older Bachmann items is practically impossible from the factory (and some parts for new runs are hard to get too!!). The best source would be to buy a similar unit for the parts but they would be the same quality. Personally I would stay away from the old Lionel engines unless you want a display unit. BTW The Lionel Freedom Train steam locomotive (ex SP4449) was a made by Bachmann unit as were some of their diesels if I recall. Go with BNSF's idea and buy a new Athearn when they come out. It will cost more but you will be getting a much better engine.
Bruette
Well-Known Member
As for the realism, I am aware that the prototype was GP 40 I even have seen some pictures of the real one on Bing. I am a Lionel man so that tells you how much interest I have in realism. I love my Lionel GP 7 Traditional O "GM 50" I can't wait to get the Lionel HO GP 9 and I will run them both on the same layout. I know for some railroaders hearing that is like fingernails on a blackboard, but it's my layout and it is my little world and I am very happy in it.
Bruette
Well-Known Member
I am a retired / disabled industrial mechanic and I enjoy working on these old locomotives. I have a had a lot of fun and success keeping my Tyco and Life-Like locomotives running. I can't buy parts for them either so I buy locomotives with cosmetic defects to salvage for parts.
I just got an email from Tony Cook of the web site "HO-Scale Trains Resource" and he tells me the Lionel is not too hard to come by so I should be able to find some for parts. I will probably buy the Lionel-GE unit even though it is a bit harder to come by.
I certainly will consider the new Athearn, but it would be in addition to the Lionel. Will the Athearn be a DCC locomotive? I don't even know if DCC locomotives will run with conventional dc power.
I have a sentimental attachment to Lionel and as you know sentiment is not based in fact.
I do appreciate everyone's input, thank you
I just got an email from Tony Cook of the web site "HO-Scale Trains Resource" and he tells me the Lionel is not too hard to come by so I should be able to find some for parts. I will probably buy the Lionel-GE unit even though it is a bit harder to come by.
I certainly will consider the new Athearn, but it would be in addition to the Lionel. Will the Athearn be a DCC locomotive? I don't even know if DCC locomotives will run with conventional dc power.
I have a sentimental attachment to Lionel and as you know sentiment is not based in fact.
I do appreciate everyone's input, thank you
Bruette
Well-Known Member
Thank you,
This may be a stupid question but I have to ask any way. Will a DCC equipped locomotive run with a conventional transformer?
Thank you
This may be a stupid question but I have to ask any way. Will a DCC equipped locomotive run with a conventional transformer?
Thank you
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
The original Lionel engines were released with a very heavy chassis with a GE electric shaver motor in them. They did not come with flywheels, nor were they needed, IMHO. The detail was good for that time, and the trucks details were well represented. The castings for the side frames were on the lines of the BB locos available at the time. It was quiet, even with the shaver motor, and the chassis, coupled with the 8 wheel drive, made these locos good pullers.
The engine I had, was not part of a set and were released as separately available items. They were good engines, and I was looking forward to the release of the GP-30 with the same chassis. It never appeared IIRC with the GE motor, and heavy chassis. Just a typical Bachmann chassis of the time.
I was in the process of painting it for my favorite road, when they released a set with a properly lettered loco in it. I sold my single unit and bought a set with the money. To my dismay, I found that the engine was a Bachmann, as well as the cars. Bachmann's quality wasn't what you would consider good in those days. I was disappointed. I have kept the set intact though, and even have run it around the Christmas Tree for several years. Now it resides on a shelf in the original box. Surprisingly, that pancake motor still runs, although I doubt that I will ever run it on rails again.
Personally, if I ever come across another GP-7/9 with the heavy chassis, 8 wheel drive, and motor again, I will pick it up, if possible. It was IMHO, a good locomotive for the time.
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Bruette
Well-Known Member
Thank you Carey!
That is what I call good information and what I have come to expect from the experts on this forum! One of the smartest things I have done since I stated in the hobby was to sign up for this forum.
I ordered a complete set, supposedly an original release with the Lionel-GE unit and never run, but you never know what you have until you see it. I offered $35 including shipping and he accepted so I thought it was worth a shot. The box is in poor condition. The Guy was asking $100 but I guess collectors were put off by the box. I will run this locomotive and for me the box is only for storing the train when it's not on my layout. I don't collect trains, I play with them!
I have read that there was an issue with binding in the gearing, but it did not say if it was the Lionel-GE or the Kader-Bachman unit. Have you heard anything about that?
Thank you very much for your expert opinion and personal experience, I greatly appreciate it! You are a gentleman and a scholar.
Louis
That is what I call good information and what I have come to expect from the experts on this forum! One of the smartest things I have done since I stated in the hobby was to sign up for this forum.
I ordered a complete set, supposedly an original release with the Lionel-GE unit and never run, but you never know what you have until you see it. I offered $35 including shipping and he accepted so I thought it was worth a shot. The box is in poor condition. The Guy was asking $100 but I guess collectors were put off by the box. I will run this locomotive and for me the box is only for storing the train when it's not on my layout. I don't collect trains, I play with them!
I have read that there was an issue with binding in the gearing, but it did not say if it was the Lionel-GE or the Kader-Bachman unit. Have you heard anything about that?
Thank you very much for your expert opinion and personal experience, I greatly appreciate it! You are a gentleman and a scholar.
Louis
Bruette
Well-Known Member
Carey,
If you are interested I found some information about the Lionel GP 9, GM 50. The Lionel made in the USA GP 9 GM 50 with the GE motor was included in Lionel's first set 5-15480 "The Chessie" that marked the comeback of Lionel in 1974. It was produced until 1975. It was replace with the 5-2683 "Golden Arrow" set, GM 50, GP9 with the Kader-Bachman unit made in Hong Kong.
To confuse maters even more Lionel released another set 5-2681 in 1976-77 with the same name as the 5-1480 "The Chessie" it still a GP 9 but with the traditional Chessie tri-color scheme. That locomotive was also the Kader-Bachman unit made in Hong Kong.
The only record I could find of an individually sold GP 9 GM50 5-5403 was sold through JC Penny in 1975. That does not mean there were not others as you probably know it is very difficult to research un-cataloged Lionel items.
In 1975 Lionel added a second power truck to frame and moved the weight from the shell and added it to the frame. All in all Lionel had 4 different frames and 2 different shells for this locomotive.
I wanted to give you this information because you said if you ever run across one like you first had you would get it. The only sure way to know what you are getting is if you can hold it in your hand. All of the locomotives in the 5-1480 set have the Lionel-GE unit made in the USA but not all of them have 2 power trucks.
I have not yet received my 5-1480 set yet, but when I do I will let you know what I got. Either way I will be happy with it because I know it has the GE motor. Although 2 power trucks and the weighted frame would be a bonus!
From what I read you were right on target with your evaluation. The Lionel-GE unit, weighted frame and dual power trucks made this if not the best then easily one of the finest HO locomotives of the 70's most called it "ahead of it's time".
Its a shame Lionel went for profit at the expense of quality. Why do companies continue to operate as if consumer's are stupid? It still happens everyday. I am glad Lionel has learned it's lesson.
If you are interested I found some information about the Lionel GP 9, GM 50. The Lionel made in the USA GP 9 GM 50 with the GE motor was included in Lionel's first set 5-15480 "The Chessie" that marked the comeback of Lionel in 1974. It was produced until 1975. It was replace with the 5-2683 "Golden Arrow" set, GM 50, GP9 with the Kader-Bachman unit made in Hong Kong.
To confuse maters even more Lionel released another set 5-2681 in 1976-77 with the same name as the 5-1480 "The Chessie" it still a GP 9 but with the traditional Chessie tri-color scheme. That locomotive was also the Kader-Bachman unit made in Hong Kong.
The only record I could find of an individually sold GP 9 GM50 5-5403 was sold through JC Penny in 1975. That does not mean there were not others as you probably know it is very difficult to research un-cataloged Lionel items.
In 1975 Lionel added a second power truck to frame and moved the weight from the shell and added it to the frame. All in all Lionel had 4 different frames and 2 different shells for this locomotive.
I wanted to give you this information because you said if you ever run across one like you first had you would get it. The only sure way to know what you are getting is if you can hold it in your hand. All of the locomotives in the 5-1480 set have the Lionel-GE unit made in the USA but not all of them have 2 power trucks.
I have not yet received my 5-1480 set yet, but when I do I will let you know what I got. Either way I will be happy with it because I know it has the GE motor. Although 2 power trucks and the weighted frame would be a bonus!
From what I read you were right on target with your evaluation. The Lionel-GE unit, weighted frame and dual power trucks made this if not the best then easily one of the finest HO locomotives of the 70's most called it "ahead of it's time".
Its a shame Lionel went for profit at the expense of quality. Why do companies continue to operate as if consumer's are stupid? It still happens everyday. I am glad Lionel has learned it's lesson.
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Selector
Well-Known Member
Most modern DCC decoders, but for certain ALL modern sound decoders, will operate on either DC or DCC. The decoder will come from the factory able to determine which form of power is getting to the rails. You can configure the decoder to only operate on DCC by changing the value of CV 29 to a value of 34. With a value of 38, the decoder will retain its 'dual-mode' status and react to the type of power it senses from the rails.
Bruette
Well-Known Member
Selector
Well-Known Member
A more complete answer is that you will have to do some research to find such decoders. Straight 'mobile decoders' may or may not be able to operate in DC....you'll have to check. Currently, the practice in the industry is to provide only dual-mode for sound equipped decoders because not everyone embraces DCC, or has the funds to acquire it plus convert all their fleet of locos. So, a toe-dip of trying a sound installation with their current DC setup is a sensible first step, although it severely restricts one's exposure to all the decoder was engineered to do.
For more completeness, you should understand that your DC setup will be strictly limited in its ability to operate a DCC decoder of any type. You won't be able to alter the configuration variables (CV's) to get realistic motion control out of your drive systems on your locos. To alter the CVs' input values, you must have a DCC control system or use Decoder Pro from JMRI, freeware, via a computer and a purchased interface device to connect to a small programming. track.
For more completeness, you should understand that your DC setup will be strictly limited in its ability to operate a DCC decoder of any type. You won't be able to alter the configuration variables (CV's) to get realistic motion control out of your drive systems on your locos. To alter the CVs' input values, you must have a DCC control system or use Decoder Pro from JMRI, freeware, via a computer and a purchased interface device to connect to a small programming. track.
Bruette
Well-Known Member
thank you again!
If you don't mind I will ask about a specific locomotive. Bachman GP 30 w/dcc http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Bachmann-HO-60806-RTR-GP30-B-O-Capital-6936-p/bac-60806.htm
I am not ready to commit to dcc I just like this locomotive and the price is good. It would be my first modern HO locomotive. All of mine are 30 or 40 years old and at least 1 of each of the different locomotives I have run good. I thought about buying Bachman's ready to run set with a simple dcc controller but it only comes with 2 locomotives I really don't like and track I don't need. thank you so much for your help
louis
If you don't mind I will ask about a specific locomotive. Bachman GP 30 w/dcc http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Bachmann-HO-60806-RTR-GP30-B-O-Capital-6936-p/bac-60806.htm
I am not ready to commit to dcc I just like this locomotive and the price is good. It would be my first modern HO locomotive. All of mine are 30 or 40 years old and at least 1 of each of the different locomotives I have run good. I thought about buying Bachman's ready to run set with a simple dcc controller but it only comes with 2 locomotives I really don't like and track I don't need. thank you so much for your help
louis
Selector
Well-Known Member
Sorry, Louis, I don't actually install my own decoders. A distant buddy does them for me, but also, I don't have a lot of non-steam experience. I will tell you that Bachmann doesn't currently enjoy a great reputation in their diesel department, certainly not in their regular, or non-Spectrum, line. Their Spectrum steam is rather good. I honestly can't tell you how easy it is to install a decoder in the regular Bachmann line of diesels, or what might be involved to do it successfully. In Bachmann's case, they usually list their easily converted locos as 'DCC ready', and that runs across manufacturers. Generally, you go to Lichtfield Station or Tony's Train Exchange on the www, tell them what you have, they'll email back a recommendation, and you buy and install. There should be a plug in the locos ready for a decoder, but in Bachmann's case, there are complications. For example, and remember I am a non-installer, they have a light board that many would suggest be ripped out. Also, they tend to have capacitors or RF filters, or whatever the gizmos are, that wreak havoc with decoder operation and programming. Tony's or Lichtfield will surely give you some hints, or maybe try youtube with the appropriate search syntax and see if someone has a video up for your loco.
Sorry, I'm tapped out now.
Sorry, I'm tapped out now.
Bruette
Well-Known Member
Thank you Crandell,
Your answer was a great help, I have zero experience with modern locomotives. This Bachman GP 30 comes with DCC and it's under $50. My question was about the quality and you covered that. I am sorry my question was not clear.
Maybe I can help you a little bit, Capacitors can act like batteries, in that they store a charge as they work. RF filters use capacitors, they are traps for unwanted signal noise. In a DC circuit capacitors can be used to keep the DC voltage smooth. I can see how they could be a problem when adding DCC to a locomotive. DCC signal can be mistaken as noise or spikes by a capacitor or RF filter. I hope that helps with out going into a lot of electronic theory.
thanks again
Louis
Your answer was a great help, I have zero experience with modern locomotives. This Bachman GP 30 comes with DCC and it's under $50. My question was about the quality and you covered that. I am sorry my question was not clear.
Maybe I can help you a little bit, Capacitors can act like batteries, in that they store a charge as they work. RF filters use capacitors, they are traps for unwanted signal noise. In a DC circuit capacitors can be used to keep the DC voltage smooth. I can see how they could be a problem when adding DCC to a locomotive. DCC signal can be mistaken as noise or spikes by a capacitor or RF filter. I hope that helps with out going into a lot of electronic theory.
thanks again
Louis
