What ya think?


Just getting started in the hobby and trying to come up with a layout to fit my space. Please give your opinions on the rough layout drawing, good and bad. I realize that some adjustments will have to be made, but does it look like it will work? Im not sure how the top portion is gonna look with the very top track in a -grade and the one right below it in +grade. The cut out portion is to make reaching the back of the track easier. Just trying to come up with a idea so i can get started. The only track that has grade changes is the one with the lenght measurement by them. Each square is 3 inches. Im at the maximum width, unless i tear down a wall! :cool:
 
Hi Ken,
That a fairly interesting plan you have but I want to bring up bring up the subject of variation of operation. By that I'm referring to not always watching your consist of Locos & cars always going around either Right hand or Left hand curves but having both in an 'L' shape layout that can be a continuous loup too yet allows variation in viewing the trains operate.

Of course this all depends on the space you have available too.

The easy way to enjoy this is to have your track plan so it's in the form of what is called a folded Dog bone, similar to what I have which provides both Right and Left hand curves which, in my humble opinion, is much more pleasing to view and realistic to operate and can still be operated as a Point to Point as well as continuous running.

Just some food for thought.

Hth.
 
Is the layout standing in the middle of the floor, with ample aisles for walking all around it, or is it squished up against walls on one or more of the long sides (top or bottom)?

Stein
 
I know where Stein is going with that question. It's 42" from the cut out to the top side of the drawing. Typical reaching distance is certainly not more than 30", so unless there is a walkway on the far side you'll have serious trouble getting to that far edge.

And if there is a walkway over there, that's space that could be considered during layout design, and you could end up with a much more fun and useful layout.

The real questions are, what is your total space for your layout? What do you hope to do with your layout?
 
Its gonna be up against three walls. I have considered moving the staging are to the front which should help with the long distance reach.
 
Its gonna be up against three walls. I have considered moving the staging are to the front which should help with the long distance reach.

I would suggest starting over from scratch. I don't think your plan can be salvaged by a minor change like moving the three staging tracks to the lower edge.

Maintenance will be a nightmare, with the access issues. You crawl or duck walk under a couple of feet of layout hauling tools, pop up into a narrow slit, try to reach across a long reach, discover that you need another tool, do a limbo thing to get down under the layout again, and crawl or duck walk out to get the other tool.

Apart from the access issues, the track plan itself is pretty boring, and has very little variety in what you can do.

This looks like a typical display track plan. I assume you were thinking of standing at the bottom of the plan, looking at one train looping around and around and around on the twice-around loop.

The train will pass through the same scene over and over and over again - sometimes in the foreground, sometimes further back, most of the time many feet away from where you will standing. Visually, it won't look anything like a railroad, where the trains come from e.g. the east, go past where you are standing and then continue towards the west. It will look like you are standing on a high point in an amusement park, watching a ride loop here and there and then return back to the same point it came from.

The design ideal these days is to have what is called "sincere scenes" - i.e. scenes that the train pass through once, in one direction.

Having an alternate path (or a siding) with the 22" radius curves doesn't do much for the plan - it essentially works as a fourth place to stash a train while one trains loops around on the mainline. Not much point in letting a train on the siding leave that siding while another train is looping - there isn't anywhere else two trains can meet.

You will need to be religious about throwing turnouts from a distance - if you forget to re-line the turnouts for the mainline after leaving the staging, you will derail at speed next time you try to pass this point while looping.

If you take the inner branch/siding/whatever, you again have a fair chance of derailing when you get to the far end, unless you either really watch what you are doing, or wire the turnouts on both ends to change at the same time. Do it wrong, and a running train plows into a train standing on the siding.

Can of course be helped by wiring the track so that it is controlled by the position of the turnout, so trains approaching a turnout thrown the other way will be stopped.

Mind you - forgetting to line turnouts is a common occurrence on model railroads - it is not unique to this design. Happens on any plan that has at least one turnout :)

What makes it more aggravating in this plan is that most of the time derailments will occur far from the operator.

Most people seeing it will probably ooh and ah about how big it is, watch a single train loop for maybe one or two minutes, and then bore of watching the train loop, and want to walk on and do something else.

Kids might stay interested for 15-20 minutes, maybe even a couple of hours, pressing buttons to select the inner loop or not, and maybe trying to figure out how to get two trains running at the same time, crashing into each other.

After a couple of days or weeks of this, they will get bored and will want to do something else.

And that's about it.

If your plan was to duck/crawl into the narrow pit to operate from there, you would at least get some visual separation of scenes (you cannot see what is behind you), but you have a pit too narrow for even one person - forget about taking people in there to watch your layout.

But operations won't be any more interesting - it consists of looping around and around.

There isn't much in this plan to keep an owner/operator interested for a long time - this is the kind of layout you build, run for a little while, and then tear down again to build something else. Or build, run for a while, and then abandon to let it gather dust, since it is so hard to maintain it (due to the access problems).

In my experience, many people starting out tend to be too concerned with quantity of run - wanting twice-around and alternate paths, and not concerned enough with quality of run.

I would suggest starting with a list of what you want your trains to be able to do. And then one can look at how to fit that into a room your size.

Narrower shelves around the room with a far larger pit in the center is likely to produce a layout that will look better and be more interesting to run. Or a walk-in design, with turn back curves on wider blobs at the ends.

But the first step is coming up with a list of what you want to do with your trains. Do you want to have trains meet each other? Do you want to walk along with a train going along the track? Do you want to watch a scene where a train arrives, do something with it's cars, and then depart?

What is your core vision?

Passenger trains? Freight trains? Old fashioned steam trains? Small diesel switchers with a handful of cars? Long trains of containers or coal cars? Logging? Mining? Modern suburban industrial parks? Northwest corridor passenger trains speeding by?

Small town on the prairie with grain elevators? Desert landscapes? Trains running along winding rivers in Appalachian valleys between tree covered ridges? Tracks in the street, winding among warehouses in Brooklyn?

It might also be a good idea to mention what scale you are considering modeling in. Going N scale instead of H0 will give you a lot more options for how to fit a layout into a given space, since N scale can make do with far smaller return curves - which has a major impact on how to fit a layout into a room.

Hope I haven't stepped too hard on your toes. I am not trying to be mean - I am just trying to make you think about what you want from your layout.

Smile,
Stein
 
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Ken,

Stein has good points, however sometimes 'the best learned lessons are self taught.'

Before building a layout and all, do you have enough track to layout your deisgn on the floor, and see how the trains operate?

I see you plan on having grades (tracks going up and down hill) from your drawing, although I didn't calculate their percent (rise/run). With 22" curves, and grades of 3% or more, many engines will only be able to pull 3-4 cars up the grade. Grades that start and end on curves also have issues(I learned that the hard way, back in the 1970's).

If you decide to stick with your plan, you might think of adding some passing sidings, so one train can wait for another, while going around the loop(s). I think you will have problems with the size of your access hole, in the middle. Probably should be at least 24-30" wide, at its narrowest-nice to be able to turn around.

Operationally, as shown, trains will be able to pull out of the yard, going forward, but have to back in, or vice versa. Without any passing sidings, in the yard area, this will create issues.

Another thing is from what I can tell, not to much room for buildings, such as industries, or town(s). Remember, a railroad is in business to carry things between destinations, not just go in circles, in the real world. Most people like to see their trains run thru some sort of scenery-not sure your plan has much room for that.

What got you interested in model railroading in the first place? Trains running thru scenic vistas/certain locations, endless strings of freight cars, being pulled by multiple powerful engines/short local freights, tending to local businesses? Passenger trains? Freight trains. Most people get more statisfaction from their modeling if they have something(s) specific, or imagined in the real world, that they want to create a model version of. Stein asked many good questions for you to consider at toward the end of his posting.

You might also consider researching, either online, or at your local hobby shop, if there is one near you, for a trackplan, that would fit in the space available to you for modeling. At some point, I think just about every body in this hobby has gone that route. If nothing else, its a starting point, or reference, for what's potentially feasible, and interesting in a given space, in a given scale (HO, N, O,...). You can always try and adapt a plan that strikes your fancy-many people have done that.

Good luck! Keep us posted.
Otis
 
Thanks for the replies, all valid points. The grade is (or should be if i didnt screw up) 2% , and the curves are 24r on the main loops. I did envision pulling long trains of hopper cars, at least that was what i am wanting to do. Hence the long mainline run. I can see how this may become boring after a short time, i do plan on doing some buildings and scenery. I knew there were areas that would not allow room for buildings, but i thought i had left room in several places. Maybe i just dont understand how much room i need. I will look at track plans again and see if anything interests me that will fit in my space.

I do understand this though, i need to get this right the first time. This is way to much money and time involved to only end up with something that never gets used because its boring.

This all got started when i bought my son a train set as a Christmas present. When i was young i recieved something to add to my trainset every year. Nothing fancy, just track and cars that had to be put away after playing with them. This made me want to build something we could add on to slowly over time and hopefully be something we could be proud of together.
 
Thanks for the replies, all valid points. The grade is (or should be if i didnt screw up) 2% , and the curves are 24r on the main loops. I did envision pulling long trains of hopper cars, at least that was what i am wanting to do. Hence the long mainline run. I can see how this may become boring after a short time, i do plan on doing some buildings and scenery. I knew there were areas that would not allow room for buildings, but i thought i had left room in several places. Maybe i just dont understand how much room i need. I will look at track plans again and see if anything interests me that will fit in my space.

I do understand this though, i need to get this right the first time. This is way to much money and time involved to only end up with something that never gets used because its boring.

This all got started when i bought my son a train set as a Christmas present. When i was young i recieved something to add to my trainset every year. Nothing fancy, just track and cars that had to be put away after playing with them. This made me want to build something we could add on to slowly over time and hopefully be something we could be proud of together.

Is going to N scale an option? You can do a very nice loop-on-table layout on a 32"x80" or 36"x80" hollow core door in N scale, which functionally will the equivalent of a 4.5 feet or 5 feet x 12 feet layout in H0 scale in terms of curve radii and train lengths that can be used.

But it would take far less floor space, and allow you to do a classical walk-around layout in a space that is 8 x 10 feet (or whatever size your walled in on three sides space actually is.

Quick concept sketch to show what I mean by walk-around layout (in N scale), and showing how back boards/sky boards/viewblocks can be used to segment a layout into smaller "sincere" scenes (where the train is moving through each scene only once):

mine-branch.jpg


Main conceptual things:
- Easy bench work - a hollow core door and narrow shelves
- Can be built in stages - get trains running on the HCD fast.
- Wider aisles for people (these might still be too narrow - test)
- Use view blocks to frame each scene, so you don't see what is "beyond".
- The use of X-factor staging to be able to reset single ended staging:

xfactor.jpg


It is not at all a given that this particular idea would work for you. But I would suggest trying to think in terms of what scenes you want to see the train move through, leave aisles wide enough for people and reach distances , and where you want trains to come from and go to.

Here is another concept - my layout room is 6.5 foot x 11.5 foot, and I wanted a H0 scale surround layout (no room for a walk around layout). This is how I did it in my room:

warehouse68.jpg


Layout depth varies between 24" at the deepest and 9" at the narrowest.You do not need a lot of scene depth for a layout - 6-8" can be enough for create the illusion of a train moving through the landscape, since your focus will be on the train, not on the background. But aisle space is far wider - enough that two grown men can pass each other when necessary.

In this style of layout, there is ample room above and below the layout for storage shelves and maybe a work table.

Distance to trains are at no time more than about 20" or so. Close enough to enjoy the details H0 scale affords for engines and cars.

Across the door in the lower left hand corner is a narrow duck under/lift out. Layout is built tall enough (at chest level for a grown man) that it is easy to duck under, and it also is easy to remove the lift out when I am not running trains.

There are many different ways of fitting a layout in N or H0 scale into a space like the one you have.

But try to not fill up the entire space with layout surface and leave just tiny prairie dog holes for popups. It will quickly get old. Access must be convenient.

Smile,
Stein
 
Thanks for your suggestions. I think that your right, with the space constraints i need to go with a around the wall layout. Your layout is quite interesting. Im not sure i want to start out with that many switches though. At least now i have a better understanding of what i will need to do to make a "interesting" layout. For me, i just enjoy watching the long line of cars pass by scenery. For others i'm sure this would be boring.
 
Well, It is your railroad, and see fit to build it how you like. I can share my experience with you.
I had a small room that had 'built-in' cupboards, 2 windows at varying height, a water heater and 2 doors. I believe I had 6.5' of useable space one way, and 10' the other. I built a center operating pit layout. Very simple, long oval, a couple of sidings, a modest yard. I got my practice in laying track and doing wiring...I loved it.
THen, on to scenery...I really enjoyed this part and I felt I had some very nice scenes.
I enjoyed watching my train go round and round while I worked on a piece of roling stock, or did some scenery...

But, it quickly got old from an operational perspective. I could turn a train around (which is something I really wanted to do), my train never 'went' anywhere. I would go to my yard, which was too small to hold more than 3 of my bulkhead flat cars, then...Off to my lumber yard, drop them off...go to the unbuilt mill siding and pick up cars, go to the yard...pick up the empties at the lumber yard, then, off to the mill...

It just got old. I felt I had honed my scenery skills, got my wiring down, and track work solid...but I just wanted more.

My wife and I bought a house...I have a devoted room now. It is a large bonus room. I plan on going a little bit bigger from an operational persepective. I really feel that is what I was longing for. I also really enjoy photographing my scenes...

I hope you find what you are looking for in this great hobby...I just think it is best to think long and hard about the future of your experience in this hobby. I would hate to see you throw money at something that is unworkable, unreliable, and unfun...

I think you can create some nice scenes using more narrow bench work. I had about 3 feet of blue foam, with track on the outside edge...lots of scene to make realistic looking.
 
Thanks for your suggestions. I think that your right, with the space constraints i need to go with a around the wall layout. Your layout is quite interesting. Im not sure i want to start out with that many switches though. At least now i have a better understanding of what i will need to do to make a "interesting" layout. For me, i just enjoy watching the long line of cars pass by scenery. For others i'm sure this would be boring.

I don't know if you noticed, but I showed you examples of two very different layouts.

The one I have is made for urban switching - lots of turnouts, lots of tracks.

The other example (the N scale one) allows you to run long trains through the landscape from staging on one side, around the loop on the table (as many times as you like), and then either go up to the mine, swap empty cars for loaded cars, and go back again the other way, or run from staging on one side, around the loop as many times as you like, and then out to staging on the other side.

The two main scenes (labelled scene 2 and scene 3) are not full of switches. This part of the layout have 5 switches - two to staging, two on a siding (so two trains trains can meet on the right side of the table), and one to the path leading towards the mine.

This example has lots of room for scenery. And you can experiment with quite different scenery on the right side of the table and on the left side of the table, since you can only see one of the sides at a time, due to the viewblock wall down the center of the table and at the end of the table.

It is not the number of turnouts that make a layout interesting :)

Smile,
Stein
 
reinforcing some of Stein's points...
And of course you are free to disregard!
One of my enjoyments is watching the train run. But... one nagging thought bothered me as I began construction...
What if I eventually get bored with my hobby of sitting back and watching the train run?
So... I got some help, and my new plan is still mostly "watch the train", but now features some other ideas for actual switching.
You may never tire of watching the train run. But if you do... we're just trying to give you some pointers that will keep that from being the end of your hobby! :cool:
 
Well its not so much about the number of turnouts, its the money that it will cost associated with them, lol. I did manage to find a plan online that will get me started while giving me a completed layout plan that i can build as money is available. As for going N guage, i have allready started buying track, car, and a athearn genesis GP 15 with dcc and sound. I looked at the N guage cars when i was in my LHS and they just seem to small. (my eyesight gets worse by the day it seems)

This layout will fit in my room and leave a aisle around the end so that i can get to the backside of the layout without having to duck under something. It is allso small enough that i will have some room to spare to add on. Im going to modify this plan to make another full run around the outside of the mainline so that i can get two full circuits without having to pass over the same track. I think i can automate this using the tortoise and hare, im gonna have to look into that .

Anyways here is the pic of it

O, Thanks for you input!!!!!!!!!!!! The advice was spot on and the insights of someone who has allready been thru this in invaluable. Thanks, Ken
 
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Latest track plan will need minimum 10 x 12 feet of floor space for access of stretched out as in drawing - but the staging tracks can be bent around a corner to make it fit in 10x8 feet.

Curves too sharp for passenger cars, or big steam locomotives. Layout will work for short trains with small engines and 7-8 40' or 50' cars (if you want the trains to fit into the 5 foot long staging tracks). Continuous run loop is about 20 feet or so - about 4 train lengths for an 8-car train.

Smile,
Stein
 
Have you traced the routes on that layout. To do simple operation it is usually preferred to have 2 staging yards at opposite ends of the layout so a train can run through the layout and back out, say from west to east. Both staging tracks enter the layout from the same direction so a train can't run from one side to the other. And both are situated backwards if you wanted to access the industries in town. You would almost have to back out of staging to do any switching and then you would not have access to the mainline.
 
I totally agree about the staging lines. I will be modifying this layout to add more lines. Looking at the layout picture, the bottom will be against a wall 13ft long. I may even take the door down to the closet since it will most likely be blocked, that will give me 2 more feet. Im gonna have to make some consessions to make anything with any size to it fit in this room. There will allways be tradeoffs i guess.

Nothing is set in stone, so i will continue to scour the internet looking for plans that i think would be a nice fit.
 



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