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NP2626
Guest
Yes, David Popp did a great job on on those videos! Since the day I heard of the definition of a "Switch-List" I have felt it is a duplication of the job your Car Cards do. I know that Switch-Lists where used by the prototype. Maybe this is because they can't see the entirety of their consist, as easily as we can, from atop our 1/87th larger position?
Car cards and waybills represent the prototype waybill. People get hung up on the fact its two pieces of paper, that's just a convenience. With any system there has to be something that "remembers" where the car goes. That's the waybill, on a non-computer system its the paper waybill, on a computer system its the waybill files or tables.
The switch list tells the crew what to do with the cars now, and give the crew a working document.
The most prototypical method is to use CC&WB with lists, it duplicates what the real railroads did. Of course there dozens of ways to combine them. Popp uses a "do not pull" card on the CC&WB, that info could just as easily be on the switch list.
The switch list tells the crew what to do with the cars now, and give the crew a working document.
The most prototypical method is to use CC&WB with lists, it duplicates what the real railroads did. Of course there dozens of ways to combine them. Popp uses a "do not pull" card on the CC&WB, that info could just as easily be on the switch list.
N
NP2626
Guest
Understand Dave; but, isn't the "Switch List" a duplication of the information contained on the Car Card and Way Bill? Like Chet says "Too much Paper Work". I don't have (at least at this time) a Computer down in the layout room. I spent much of my working life without a computer. The era I model would not have had computers, I'm thinking I'd prefer not to use computers in the operation of my layout. However, I do understand how helpful JMRI would be. So, at some point in the future I might change my mind about using a confuser on my layout.
Understand Dave; but, isn't the "Switch List" a duplication of the information contained on the Car Card and Way Bill?
Depends. If you aren't using a computer or CC&WB and multiple trains handle the car then yes. Otherwise only partially.
The through freight pulls into the yard and has a car P&R 15035 going to the freight house. The CC&WB will have this info:
P&R 15035 XM
Wilm-MD
Freight House
Wilmington DE
LCL
From the car I see the Maryland Ave Shifter spots this car (Wilm-MD). I am building the MD Ave Shifter in track 3.
If I make a switch list for the yard engine, the line for this car would read:
P&R 035 3
After the car is switched, I would make a switch list for the MD Ave Shifter, the line for this car would read:
P&R 035 Frt House
The MD Ave shifter spots the car, its unloaded, reloaded and rebilled to the freight house in Reading, the CC&WB would read:
P&R 15035 XM
Reading
Freight House
Reading PA
LCL
The MD Ave Shifter that works the freight house would have a line on the switch list for the car:
P&R 035 Pull
The Reading through freight is being built in track 2, the switch list for the yard engine would have the line
P&R 035 2
After the train is built the list for the through freight would have the line:
P&R 15035 Reading (minimum)
or
P&R 15035 XM LCL Reading (full monty)
So the list may have some of the info. On the other hand while we were working on the CC&WB for a friend, he just used handwritten lists, do every list had to have the full monty every time. Once we get the CC&WB working (and he intentionally is making it a complex system with different waybills on different colored paper for perishable, livestock and regular waybills and car slips, based on prototype paper) he can cut down the writing on the lists dramatically.
N
NP2626
Guest
I guess what I was saying, Dave, is for as simple of operations as I run, I don't feel a switch list is necessary and that a switch list does duplicate what is already stated on my CC&WB.
I'm thinking an operations forum would be a good addition. Don't know how much work it is for admin however might be worth the effort. I have been in and out of the hobby over the last 40 years and it was not until the last year that I was even interested in operation. Primarily because i was never exposed to it until now. I belong to a round robin group of modelers who live for operations and it changed my whole perspective on layout design.
Whew! I've been thinking I was the only one and that to admit it would highlight some sort of failing, on my part, to not rise above the freelance, free-wheeling nature of my model railroading experience over the last few decades.
I've visited open houses, etc. and only one event used waybills (as far as I know). I shadowed an operator but since I didn't have a headset I only heard his end of communications; so I don't know how he knew his pick-ups/set-outs (he didn't seem too interested in answering my questions and I never saw Dispatch since it was in a "members only" lounge).
Open houses aren't usually the best times to learn operations because they probably aren't really "operating", they are probably mostly running trains to entertain the visitors.
The dispatcher probably doesn't tell the crew anything about where to pick up or set out cars, its more likely the other way around. Its best to try and find out when their operating sessions are and visit then.
The dispatcher probably doesn't tell the crew anything about where to pick up or set out cars, its more likely the other way around. Its best to try and find out when their operating sessions are and visit then.
Open houses aren't usually the best times to learn operations because they probably aren't really "operating", they are probably mostly running trains to entertain the visitors.
The dispatcher probably doesn't tell the crew anything about where to pick up or set out cars, its more likely the other way around. Its best to try and find out when their operating sessions are and visit then.
I agree. The times I shadowed were the "etc." part of my post when I was an NMRA member (of today's Niagara Frontier Reg. - Allegheny Highlands Div...but I think it was called something different in the 1970's- 80's). For whatever reason, I felt like a 2nd caboose, lol, for the lack of attention or direction. I was young and shy so it might have been my perception. I joined again (North East Reg. - Sunrise Trail Div.) 8 yrs. ago but life got in the way of participating. We'll see how it goes this time around. At least I'm still in the same NFRegion and STDiv. this time.
So, my focus right now is coming up with a train Schedule.
I've been focusing my reading and video watching on Car Cards (CC) & Way Bills (WB) and Switch Lists and can't resist being a bit confused because I keep wondering about from where did the instructions on the Switch List come? That, obviously, is from the Time Table (TT) & Train Order (TO); which is discussed in the July 2009 NMRA 'zine Scale Rails, "A Day in the Life of a Working Railroad" by Dan Lewis, MMR; pp.40-49. That article helped but, I suspect, seeing it in-person would help planning a layout plan that would work well for realistic operations.
Instructions on the switch list come from several places, but primarily from the waybill and whatever instructions the railroad has to assign cars to trains and that says what trains do.
If I have a car going to Los Angeles (from the waybill) in my yard in Philadelphia, I will have some instruction or list that says what trains carry cars going west. Lets say its the West train. I am building the west train in track 4. So as the yardmaster I will mark the switchlist to send the car to track 4. The West train runs from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. When the West train runs, the switchlist for that train will show the car going to Pittsburgh.
I have a car going to Container Corp at Bridgeport (from the waybill) in my yard in Philadelphia, I will have some instruction or list that says what trains carry cars going to Bridgeport. Lets say its the Norris Turn. I am building the Norris Turn in track 43. So as the yardmaster I will mark the switchlist to send the car to track 3. When the Norris Turn runs, the switchlist for that train will show the car going to Bridgeport, to Container Corp.
The waybill says were the car goes and other instructions say which train caries it there.
If I have a car going to Los Angeles (from the waybill) in my yard in Philadelphia, I will have some instruction or list that says what trains carry cars going west. Lets say its the West train. I am building the west train in track 4. So as the yardmaster I will mark the switchlist to send the car to track 4. The West train runs from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. When the West train runs, the switchlist for that train will show the car going to Pittsburgh.
I have a car going to Container Corp at Bridgeport (from the waybill) in my yard in Philadelphia, I will have some instruction or list that says what trains carry cars going to Bridgeport. Lets say its the Norris Turn. I am building the Norris Turn in track 43. So as the yardmaster I will mark the switchlist to send the car to track 3. When the Norris Turn runs, the switchlist for that train will show the car going to Bridgeport, to Container Corp.
The waybill says were the car goes and other instructions say which train caries it there.
In creating a train schedule the most important part is having a realistic understanding of how long it takes to get across the railroad and how long things take to get done on the railroad. If it takes 20" to switch at a station, giving the train 5" can create problems if it will hurt the operation when the train becomes late. If the yard can only process a train every 30", then pumping a train in every 15" won't work.
Another thing that is critical is to look at the "schedule" of operators. If you are planning to have 4 operators on a layout, then scheduling 5 trains to be running at the same time won't work. If every operator has to immediately turn back on another train, then if one train gets late, it will put the whole schedule late. I once attended a session where, to accommodate a lot of visitors, the owner added a bunch of trains to the schedule, thinking it would be better to keep everybody busy. About a third of the way through the session, they ran out of operators on a first class train in the superior direction (which means it was a train that every other opposing train had to wait for). That delayed all the trains in one direction, then that clogged up trains in the other when they started to have to wait for the trains stuck for the first class train. It took the rest of the session to unwind everything because it became so late. Moral of the story is doing be afraid to "schedule" your operators with 5 or 10 actual minutes of down time between trains.
A handy planning tool is a "string graph". Think of a spreadsheet (I use Excel to make them), with the rows as the stations, and the columns as the time scale (one column for every hour, or 30 min or 15 min). Then draw a line as the train progresses across the railroad. A train going from the top station to the bottom station will be a line sloping down from the upper left to the lower right and a train going from the bottom station to the top station will be a line sloping up from the bottom left to the upper right. Where the lines cross there will be train meets. Where the train stops for a while the line will be horizontal.
Another thing that is critical is to look at the "schedule" of operators. If you are planning to have 4 operators on a layout, then scheduling 5 trains to be running at the same time won't work. If every operator has to immediately turn back on another train, then if one train gets late, it will put the whole schedule late. I once attended a session where, to accommodate a lot of visitors, the owner added a bunch of trains to the schedule, thinking it would be better to keep everybody busy. About a third of the way through the session, they ran out of operators on a first class train in the superior direction (which means it was a train that every other opposing train had to wait for). That delayed all the trains in one direction, then that clogged up trains in the other when they started to have to wait for the trains stuck for the first class train. It took the rest of the session to unwind everything because it became so late. Moral of the story is doing be afraid to "schedule" your operators with 5 or 10 actual minutes of down time between trains.
A handy planning tool is a "string graph". Think of a spreadsheet (I use Excel to make them), with the rows as the stations, and the columns as the time scale (one column for every hour, or 30 min or 15 min). Then draw a line as the train progresses across the railroad. A train going from the top station to the bottom station will be a line sloping down from the upper left to the lower right and a train going from the bottom station to the top station will be a line sloping up from the bottom left to the upper right. Where the lines cross there will be train meets. Where the train stops for a while the line will be horizontal.
TT&TO can be pretty obscure until you understand it an see it in operation. One of the keys to remember is that it is designed to be a system with minimal communication. If ant any point in the operation, if communication was cut with the dispatcher, every train on the railroad AT THAT TIME, would have all the instructions and authority to safely complete its run in hand. It might result in bad delays and not be the most efficient, but at any instant every train has all the authority it needs to get to its final destination.
Not so with CTC, DTC, OCS or track warrants. Every train only has limited authority and once it gets to the end of that authority its stuck until the dispatcher give it more authority.
One of the problems model railroaders have is they get really nervous if a train has to wait for a meet. The vast majority of model railroads take less than 15 minutes get completely across. So any delays really won't be horrible in the worst case scenario. What happens is the dispatcher panics, and starts writing a bunch of orders changing the original plan and it takes longer to write and deliver the orders than it would have if they just waited for the delay to play out. The changes those orders make, means that other orders have to be issued and pretty soon its a death spiral of people waiting on the dispatcher. Sometime its best to make a plan and stick with it and if a couple trains get a few minutes of delay, so be it. On the other hand if a train spends the entire session stuck in one siding, that's not good either.
If the schedule is well thought out, there should be minimal need for train orders and even less need to change them. I have a layout with a 80-90 ft main line that operated TT&TO and operated 4 freights, 4 passenger trains and a local and maybe put out one train order per session.
Not so with CTC, DTC, OCS or track warrants. Every train only has limited authority and once it gets to the end of that authority its stuck until the dispatcher give it more authority.
One of the problems model railroaders have is they get really nervous if a train has to wait for a meet. The vast majority of model railroads take less than 15 minutes get completely across. So any delays really won't be horrible in the worst case scenario. What happens is the dispatcher panics, and starts writing a bunch of orders changing the original plan and it takes longer to write and deliver the orders than it would have if they just waited for the delay to play out. The changes those orders make, means that other orders have to be issued and pretty soon its a death spiral of people waiting on the dispatcher. Sometime its best to make a plan and stick with it and if a couple trains get a few minutes of delay, so be it. On the other hand if a train spends the entire session stuck in one siding, that's not good either.
If the schedule is well thought out, there should be minimal need for train orders and even less need to change them. I have a layout with a 80-90 ft main line that operated TT&TO and operated 4 freights, 4 passenger trains and a local and maybe put out one train order per session.
