New location, same old problems!


Hathaway Browne

Hathaway Browne

Intrepid Adventurer
Hey all, this might be a bit long winded, but bear with me! :)

After leaving my layout dormant for nearly a year thinking there was no hope for it, I've suddenly been able to give it a new lease of life in a new location for 2012. Problem is, I'm still struggling with some of the same old problems. Mainly radii and getting the most out of the given space.

So I come seeking advice from those in the know...

I currently have a 4x8 table (with two 2 1' shelves making it 6x8 but I'm removing them for the move) running HO in a rather haphazard loop.

A new patch of "land" has become available (hopefully) that will be roughly 12' x 4' (maybe 5').

Now ideally I'd like to be able to keep the 4x8 (as a base if nothing else) and I'm thinking that a dog bone (I think that's the technical term!) layout would be best for the space. That way I'd at least be able to do some continuous running, as I'm not keen on the idea of end-to-end running (unless I really have to) mainly as I'm not into operations per se.

Please feel to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that I can get something like two 4'x4' (maybe 5'x5') ends joined either by a 4' (or 2') shelf. So that effectively gives me a 22" radius, which is an old bug bear of mine that prevents running passenger cars, but hey we can't have everything can we? ;)

Here's a rough (and I do mean rough) plan of what I think I can achieve that is in no way to scale. (I know for starters the station area needs reducing drastically!) And it doesn't actually factor in the 4x8 table, but anyway....

Can this realistically be done in a 12x5 area?



Thanks for listening!
 
If you can go with 5'x5' on the ends. That's 60". And you can get at least 28" in radius curves. Which will easily run 85' passenger cars.

Now the plan. Since you like continuouse running. How about a "twice around". You have enough length in the middle to create a 2% grade, and have a bridge over track.

So instead of the double main line. Go with a single mainline, and a nice long run. And still have room for a station.

If you don't know what I mean about the twice around concept, let me know and I'll scribble something up for you.
 
Thanks for the reply. :)

28" sounds perfectly workable, which is fantastic news. I'd love to run a GN passenger service, so I guess I'm one step closer.

2% incline doesn't sound too bad either - I said I was never going to do inclines again (after my disastrous first attempt) but I guess this is a whole 'nuther ballgame now.

I can't exactly picture on the twice around that you mention. Would it sort of be like a two level setup?
 
OK I just whipped up something real quick for you. Real rough sketch. You can probably add a couple of industries, town, etc. on the inside.

I threw in a possible reverse loop also, to turn your trains around.

Grades are easy. Just go buy the Woodlands Scenics 2% foam/curve-able riser kit. No thinking involved. That's what I used.

Give you some ideas.....

Layout%25252000.jpg
 
wow that's pretty impressive for a quick sketch! :) You'd certainly get a good run on a loop like that. I'll have to give it some consideration.

Thanks for the tip on the risers, sounds like it'll save some time and hopefully prevent past mistakes.

I went and measured up again, from wall to wall its only 11' but I guess its not the end of the world. Depth wise 4' is not a problem but I'm starting to think that 5' might be, but until I move the 4x8 into the room I guess I can't really get an idea of how far I can build out without intruding into too much into the rest of the space.

I suppose I can still live without running 85' cars, but if I remember right, can't they just about run on a 22" curve?
 
I would definitely dump the double track for that amount of space and go with a longer winding single track mainline. Who cares if it goes through the same scene on a different set of tracks more than one time.
 
24" is the absolute minimum. And then you might have to add Kadee long shank couplers. But it will work.

If you can do 4 1/2 on the outside blobs you could make it work.

Also, not sure about your reach. Is there a wall on the back side there? You'll need access on at least 3 sides of those blobs.

Are you gonna have DC or DCC? Because if you go with the reverse loop, it's much easier using DCC with an autoreverser unit.
 
Say Hathway,
I'm in agreance with the idea of a single main line with passing sidings as basically has been suggested. I'd start somewhat simple and expand from there.

The one thing I see immediately is that your siding and passing tracks are on the back side of the plan with over a 2' 6" reach over which I'd highly suggest staying away from.

While Michaels track plan is interesting and might work it seems after doing some checking and measuring on my layout which has between 6 to 8% grades it will take you about 9 ft even at that much steeper grade to get to where you have NMRA clearance above the rails when figuring in your road bed and base. I don't see where there is enough run especially for only 2% grades to cross over the lower line unless I'm missing something? Sorry Michael, I'm not trying to be overly critical just cautious especially with Hathway's bad experience in the past.
 
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David,

Well it was a rough sketch. You are correct, the reverse loop may not work right there. Maybe have to move it.

There is should be enough room for a 2% grade. At least 12' runs on each end.
 
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Well it's all very much hypothetical right now. I appreciate that some things on the ol' wish list aren't going to happen once I relocate, and if that means going for a single track I guess I can live with it.

I'm still holding out for a continuous run though, as although they're fine in their own right, I (personally) just can't see the pleasure in end-to-end. Probably comes from my love of open wheel racing over rallying. ;) Although I'm a sucker for these big end-of-line stations I've seen. Guess I should really reconsider it.

Motley said:
24" is the absolute minimum. And then you might have to add Kadee long shank couplers. But it will work.

If you can do 4 1/2 on the outside blobs you could make it work.

Also, not sure about your reach. Is there a wall on the back side there? You'll need access on at least 3 sides of those blobs.

Are you gonna have DC or DCC? Because if you go with the reverse loop, it's much easier using DCC with an autoreverser unit.
Click to expand...

24" is the minimum? Wow I was really off with my first layout then - must've been about a 15" radius. Ahh those were the days, back when I didn't know what I was doing.... then again, I still don't!!

And 4 1/2 is doable I guess.

Yeah there will be walls on all 3 sides, plus the added headache of a plug socket halfway up the wall (about 4' off the ground) so while it'll be handy to have compared to my current layout (with the socket across the room) it will be in view all the time, but hey I can't grumble at that, I'll just be happy to be out of the garage! ;)

I've got DCC, bit of a basic unit which should still stand me in good stead until I get the new layout up and running properly and then I'll think about upgrading.
 
With walls on three sides, you will not be able to reach the back left and back right corners of the layout. This makes the 5x5 blobs completely unworkable unless you create access holes so you can crawl under the layout and pop up into the holes to reach those portions of the layout.

Most human beings can reach only 30 inches or so. Even that is difficult if you are reaching over scenery and structures.

- Jeff
 
Well I don't really have many options and I don't really want to be crawling underneath the layout for anything.

In other news, I might be able to get it located on the other side of the room, which is roughly 14' (but limited to 4' depth) so while I'll still have 3 walls (plus a second socket to deal with) I will get much more space to do something.

I've toyed with the idea (regardless of location) of having some sort of two level end-to-end so I would only have one curve to contend with, but I'll still not sold on the whole point-to-point setup.

Hopefully though the 14' can yield a plan that might just work.
 
OK, here's another really rough plan, this time on the other wall - so 14'. I've put a station terminus on a shelf (orange) and then it drops down onto the 4x8 before heading out to a rural station on another shelf underneath the other (yellow).

Then I perhaps have a bit of room to add either an industry or a yard - nothing fancy (a turntable and roundhouse would look nice but that's an expensive option) probably just a engine shed or two.



My only concern at the moment is the "short" nature of the journey.
 
Latest version. This time I've ditched the double line loop, I've settled for two passing areas in the upper and lower stations.

I think I could leave the eastern climb open but have the western covered.

I've also added a smaller loop (which should be fine for shorter trains), which features a small gallery opening (on the lower level) that should add a bit of difference to the backdrop.

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Looks good to me.

But is it drawn to scale? What are the radius on the curves? They look a little tight.

Also, you have a reversing loop. So you will need a DCC autoreversing unit. Take a look at Tony's Trains PSX-AR. I have one, and it works great.

Are you still going to run 85' passenger cars?
 
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^Well its sort of to scale, the squares at the bottom of the image represent a foot each, but this plan is a bit of a guide to get a plan before I start going into specifics. I've already thought of a few tweaks Including another separate loop that stays on one level - then I realised that I still only have 4' to 5' to work with! So its all still up in the air at the moment.

As for the reversing loop - thanks for the tip - I'll have to bear that in mind. Worst case scenario, I can always have it just as a one way line - it could even end up as a siding in the station or part of the brewery.

As for the 85'ers well, I've gone this far being resigned to never being able to run them so I guess if it doesn't come off this time around I won't be too disappointed. I've only got one coach so its not a huge loss.

Next step is to turn this plan into something more detailed.
And also perhaps decide on a location. I had planned on setting it in a fictional province, but I'm not sure if basing it in a real one would be better. Bit of a trivial detail a this point in time I suppose..!
 
Right then, I've been doing a bit of specific planning and have come up with this:



Its not 100% accurate, but its a bit better than my previous efforts.

Keeping it 14x4 and while it maybe a bit constrained depth wise I'm trying to get as much as I can out of it.

I think I might add the gradient towards the back (nothing too high (gradients shown are not specific)) and the possibility of the inner track taking a lower 'pass' rather than going up with the outer line.

Then I toyed with the idea that the inner loop can curve inwards (orange dotted line) or just keep straight (solid orange). The curve on both is a little tight on this drawing, but in reality it can go a bit further back before curving "in".

I'm starting to think that this might just work!
 
Hi Mark -

A couple of things.

I'm still concerned about how you will reach the back of the layout, both for constructing it and operating it. If the squares on your drawing are 12 inches, then the back edge of the layout is 48 inches away. You won't be able to reach it without either crawling up onto the layout or obtaining some sort of cantilevered scaffold that extends over the layout. Most human beings of normal stature can reach about 30 inches maximum.

I see only one crossover from the inner to the outer loop. This means a train traveling anti-clockwise on the outer loop can not enter the inner loop except by backing into it. That will be unwieldy at best.

Do my eyes deceive me? Or do I see a grade rising from zero in the front left corner to 2 FEET in the back left? That is a rise of 24 inches in a run of about 60 inches, or a 40% grade. That won't work. Maybe you meant it to be 2 inches rather that 2 feet. At 2 inches of rise in 60 inches of run, your grade is 3%. That's still more than you would normally want on your main line, but it is at least workable if your trains are fairly short.

- Jeff
 
^In terms of the reach issue, during the construction phase I'll have it away from the wall so I can get to the back. Once its all complete (whenever that might be! lol) I'll still be able to move it forward is anything major is needed.

For the crossover, well the station part of the plan is based on my original layout from 20 years ago. However, come to think of it, it did have a second crossover by an engine shed to the back of the table.
I think I can easily add another switch somewhere by the brewery. Although to be honest I'd not thought of doing much manoeuvring as the outer would be predominantly passenger and the inner is for freight.

As for the grade, its not accurate. Its purely aesthetic at this point. In reality the outer will only go a fraction of that. Just enough to get a bridge with a decent looking drop.
My previous attempts at a figure-8 layout taught me that you need a shed load of space to allow things to run smoothly up hill..... with out the engine labouring and the boxcars breaking free and heading back down the hill. ;)

Plus I do aim to run a Class 395 Javelin from time to time, and while she's fine on the flat I'm not sure how it'll handle a gradient. So I've got to keep it smooth as I can.
 
OK, another revision. This time the station moves to a shelf on its own, I've then raised the town scene by a couple of inches. So the line at "platform 3" is next to a retaining wall.

I've also added (although I'm not sure it could fit) an engine shed.

 
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