Need help with new design

[jason412]

Hello,
I am having trouble coming up with a new HO layout. I currently started my first layout but was not happy after I started so I tore it back down and am kind of hoping to get some help. Here is a picture of part of my basement im going to use. If need room for expansion its there but I feel this is already a pretty big layout. Heres the basement.

I currently have right track software installed but I just cant get a plan figured that really works for these dimensions. Maybe Im not being creative enough I dont know. My overall plan was to have 2 towns seperated by mountains in between where the trains would have to traverse through the mountains to arrive at the next city. I was hoping for 2 smaller yards or 1 yard and some staging. Im also planning to have the last town on lake superior with a pier but I want it to loop back so I have have a train running without much work. Id also like 2 mains. I am also modeling more of a modern era but plan to run my baltimore and ohio passenger train (which make it a pain since they need 24" min radius) since my fiance bought it all for me and I cant let it goto waste. Engine servicing facilities for diesel with roundhouse and turntable would be a plus. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I am going to continue to work on a track plan and will post if I come up with anything. In the mean any help is greatly appreciated.
Jason

 

[jbaakko]

If you're planning mountains, I'd suggest a simple double deck layout. The helix can represent the summit. That 6' wide isle at the bottom would be a prime location, with the track being on one side of the wall only.

Question, whats the shaded area? One minor issue, would be creating a constant loop, but with double track, each main could be a direction (N-S/E-W), a train could loop around on one end of the deck, and return...

A small 4'-5' island to the top maybe...

View attachment 8141

Anything more, and you might feel crowded, plus leaving that open room, leaves room for adding on...

Lets see what everyone else adds to my ideas.

 

[jason412]

Thanks for the advice! The shaded area is the princess' current play room and storage so I could move it and get more space but being pretty new to model railroading I figured I have more room than I need at the moment. Ya a helix sounds cool but I have no idea how to build one. I guess Id have to get reading haha. After reading your post I took your ideas and tried to apply them into right track and this is what Ive come up with so far.

I dont know much about operations and I would like to maximize the switching fun and such in the smaller areas of the city. Also not sure what I need to make passenger stations efficient. Planning on having a station at each town. I think the track that is passing under the mountain I will probably remove just because what would be the point going around the mountain when you can go under. Unless you all feel it would be better just to go under than over. As you can see I havent even touched the lower room yet. Im really open for any suggestions because this is all quite new to me haha.
I am trying to figure out a way to make it continually running and I think that might allow for it but still dont know. All depends on the section in the lower room. Oh and the mountain range would run east into the wall on the drawing.
Jason

 

[jbaakko]

There's a book on urban railroading, maybe that might be of interest, adding tracks downtown?

 

[jason412]

No way youre kidding, your from Hancock,MI? Im in Marquette,MI right now. I just graduated from Northern Michigan University. Working in Iron Mountain and commuting daily so my fiance can graduate. Thats funny. Ya the first layout I planned I didnt know anything and was using 4x8s and just got really sick of having to climb on top of the tables to work on anything so I wanted to make something where everything is accessible at some point. Im still up in the air which would be better to just go under the mountain or go around or maybe go over it but not around.

 

[jbaakko]

Yup, I'm a yooper, though I have not been there for a few years.

How about both, up, around a peak, through a tunnel, then back down?

 

[jason412]

Ok so after sitting here for quite a few hours and got the ball rolling thanks to jbaakko, I think I have came up with my first full draft of the layout. Please give as many suggestions/comments as possible because I really really dont want to tear this down and want to do it right the first time. I didnt put much detail into what I wanted to do with the track in the city or where Im going to have sidings for train friendly industries or the passenger stations but thats because I dont have the buildings yet and was gonna leave flexible. Would this be a bad idea? Well without further ado:

Also I was wondering if anyone has any insight or links or anything reguarding a liftable entrance gate. Like how would the track be fitted to the gate and such. It seems like a pretty straightforward concept but if anyone knows any pointers or suggestions that would be really great. So if I get enough approvals from you all fine modelers and get the kinks worked out I can begin construction of the benchwork soon!!!
Jason

 

[UP2CSX]

Several comments. First, it has the makings of a nice layout. I like the yards because they are double ended but you need to add some crossovers in the yard so your switchers don't get trapped.

Second, leaving those city areas as a blank space is a big mistake. You need to get a general idea of the layout of the city, where the industries will be, and what kind of trackage you will need to serve them. Do you want a downtown with an industrial district on the outskirts. How about a small town with all agricultural type businesses? What part of the country will this be in and what era? Will you have freeways or dirt roads? There are a lot of question about the use of that space and it needs to planned as carefully as the rest of the trackage. Walthers has dimensions in their catalog for almost all their structures. You can make paper templates and lay them out to see which ones fit best of the ones you like. Plan your roads and where the track will go in relation to the road. If there's street running involved, you'll have to plan your switch locations carefully so you don't find yourself with a switch in the middle of an intersection, for example. I've seen many examples of beautiful layouts with no planning for the town areas. As a result, the roads are too narrow, the buildings are unrealistically placed, and the roads are put wherever they fit. This ruins an otherwise excellent layout.

One final thought. Railroads have a fair percentage of their revenue traffic that's located out of town. This could be a stockyard, chemical plant, a mine, or a coal tipple, again depending on the part of the country and the era. You currently have no spurs located away from the city areas. You should consider having a few industries along the mainline since this makes operations a lot more interesting.

 

[OldGettysk]

Jason looks like a fine layout. If you are modeling the 40 - 50 era a lot of industry in the old rustbelt cities were located in the cities right next to neighborhoods . A lot of old timers would walk to work because they didn't have cars or would do so to save on gas ! Also a lot of bars were located along the way to the industries and back !!!

 

[RexHea]

Jason, take your time with planning. You have enough room to just about build any layout you could want. I would study John Armstrong's book, " Track Planning for Realistic Operations". There is a link at the top of our forum NEW POSTS page to a bookshop. Also, study other plans carefully and pick parts of those you like and that will fit the space you have in mind. Main thing, Take your time!

 

[jason412]

Thanks for all of the advice and comments UP2CSX thanks for the advice about the crossovers in the yard. I will definitely work a couple into the layout. Also about the cities Im glad you suggested about planning it out first and I was already looking at the walthers catalog and got some dimensions on some of the buildings I want to have. Im definitely shooting for industrial. Just because being employed at a foundry and being an electromechanical engineer it definitely hits home a little bit. Im thinking both of the cities will be an industrial fringe of each city and maybe only start to bring a little commercial in at the very edge of the layout. Here is my next question though... in terms of industrial I have 4 buildings I do already own that I got last year for christmas, a coke retort plant, a power plant, a coal mine, and I believe the last one is a furniture manufacturer. So Im guessing the coal mine facility should be placed near the mountainous region? Also the retort and power plant should be closer to the city and the furniture man. will probably be one of those industries away from the city farther out.

Oldgettysk- I was currently planning on going a little bit more modern but to be honest my layout is going to be a little more spread out in terms of eras. Mainly because my family has bought me buildings and such for presents and they buy me what they think is nice sometimes. I would feel terrible if they came over to see the model they bought and I returned it for another haha. Oh and I could definitely even see me walking to work to save on gas these days if I could too! haha

Im definitely also thinking about making a few rural or agricultural areas. Not really a highlight of the layout but should add some character. More or less in between the mountain range and the urban areas.

Rexhea- Yes I have definitely been trying to read a lot and as much as I can absorb when the little princess lets me. I will check out that link and go see about getting my hands on a couple of books. I checked out just about every book I could from the library. Oh and about the time issue. You right on the money when you say I need to take my time. Thats why I had to tear down my firs try just because I was so anxious to get the trains running that I just threw 4x8's together. BIG MISTAKE. Even just for the sake of having to climbing on the table reaching into small spaces being 6' 3" 225lbs. Luckily I built a strong benchwork haha. I just hated not being able to reach across the layout without having to crush something on the table to get there. That is my biggest focus with this layout. I will post some updates of the layout and pics soon. Happy training all or choochooing as my 20 month old daughter says.

 

[UP2CSX]

Jason, the coal mine would obviously be a good place for a spur in the mountains. The power plant would generally be located on the outskirts of the industrial district and a good customer for your coal mine. The furniture manufacture is a good candidate for the center of the industrial district with maybe some street running to provide rail service. The coke retort plant could be located either near the coal mine or near the power plant. They were a pretty dirty business so you'd want it as far away as any commercial district as possible. As you can see just from the options with these four buildings, careful planning will pay dividends later.

 

[jason412]

Well I got alot accomplished today. I dismantled the old 4x8 tables so I can reuse the wood for the new tables. Then I cleaned ALOT.Also I added a turntable and possibly gonna add an engine facility up by the yard. Sorry I dont have any pictures but it was just a cleaning and scrapping day mixed with sitting on my computer tuning the layout even more. Ill take some pictures and post the new layout tomorrow when I get some progress made. I still am trying to add the buildings to the layout on right track. Gonna be a while before I get all that worked out. I am getting excited though haha. I just want to make sure im gonna be 100% satisified with this layout which so far I really am but Im definitely gonna consider everything. I do get frustrated with that program though because for some reason when I hit the zoom button it only zooms into the top left corner and cant pick where I want to zoom.

Ok just gonna edit this post since I couldnt goto sleep. The princess is sleeping in mommy and daddys bed and shes hogging up my whole spot of the bed haha. Ok well being half asleep I did work a little more on the layout let me know what you all think and as always I love suggestions/comments/constructive criticism. As you can see Ive added some more switching too. Also you can see the grey areas are roads and parking lots. Also my idea on the mine, it would end up being the highest point on the layout and the track below it would travel throught a tunnel. Again let me know!
Hopefully if anyone responds I wont read it until tomorrow and not be up all night

 

[jason412]

Well over the weekend I got the benchwork completed and am really happy with the overall scheme. Everything is well within reach and that was my biggest goal with this layout. I am now gluing and tacking down the foam tops of the benchwork. Maybe tomorrow Ill be able to get a few turnouts down and put my 8-40cw on the track so my daughter can hear the whistle she loves so much. Anyways heres the pics.

As you can see all thats left of the old layout is the mountain I never finished. This mountain will most likely be the smallest of the mountain range. Anyways comments and suggestions are always welcome!

 

[jason412]

Hey all!
Sorry I havent posted in a while between work, the baby, the flu, and trying to get some work done on the layout Ive been really strapped for time. I have been reading alot and decided I will need a lot better of a yard. So here is the most up to date track plan:

As you can see I added a major yard. I really hope it adds a lot more to operation because the beginning track plan I had was pretty skimpy. I guess my only question for all you experts out there is that do you think it is actually too big? I dunno I really like it but still a bit of a novice in terms of operations. I am still in the works of adding more sidings for buildings. You can also see I have a staging area added on now which is actually part of my workbench so works out good. I still need to paint the styrene sheets Im going to mount for the background. The wall is what I painted the last time and just tihnk it looks bad. Ok heres some pics that I promised quite a while ago haha

So as always any feedback is more than welcome so let me know what you all think.

 

[jbaakko]

Looks like one heck of a layout!

 

[UP2CSX]

You sure are moving right along when it comes to construction. In terms of the new layout, I'd have to say the new yard is not only too big, it's operationally flawed.

At the top of the yard, you have the yard lead coming in directly off a mainline. The yard ladder is also curved, which leads to a series of "S" curves that are going to be no end of trouble when it comes to derailments.

Once a switcher is in the yard, it has no means of escape. You need to have at least one crossover per yard, preferably two, or the switcher will get in the middle of the yard an be trapped by other blocks of cars.

Lastly, and this may be an oversight, it appears the roundhouse lead only goes to the the ladder track for the stub end yard. Any engine trying to get to or from the roundhouse woud have to make a double move right on the yard ladders, thus fouling the ladder tracks on a regular basis. A real railroad would have the roundhouse lead either on the mainline or on a siding just off the mainline.

I think getting rid of that top stub end yard, making a smoother transistion to the top of the double ended yard, and rearanging the roundhouse lead and tracks would give you all you need and leave some room for a town or industries.

 

[Rotorranch]

I noticed one thing on the track you have laid, that I do differently. I put the wires from the terminal joiners to the inside the rails, and drop it through the benchwork. Less need to camoflauge the wires that way.

Rotor

 

[jason412]

Thanks for the advice on the yard Jim, Ill try and go back to kind of what I had before. I guess I still dont quite get what it takes to design a good yard haha. Good thinkin Rotor that would definitely make it alot easier hiding those feeder wires. Ill start soldering on the inside with the new area of track Ive just laid this morning. I did put the track laying aside to work another project though.......Here it is!!!

I am quite happy with the outcome of the liftup gate. The only thing bad about it was that while I was building the gate some little mischevious princess and her feline sidekick were doing something else while her mama wasnt looking. They were caught in the act when her mama came back from the kitchen.

Yep look at her tearing her poor bed apart hahaha. Ok well gonna go back to work on the layout. As always let me know what you all think
Oh and Ill try and rework the yard this evening and see what I can do.

 

[jason412]

Well good news and really really bad news since the last update. I was able to lay the outer main line so I could atleast run a consist all the way around derailment free. I ended up having 3 engines and 30 cars running around the main at once. I was pretty happy with the overall outcome of the track laying I got done. Then this last Tuesday I got a phone call.......The water company is installing a new meter in our house and the surrounding areas. If you look at the pictures posted previously you can see that the layout is about a foot below the old meter with the incline. I told the guy on the phone that the meter is not obstructed in anyway but I do have a model train layout a good foot below it. Then he said I can count on it being the same size and looking similiar but they cant guarantee in any way that since I live in an older house that the meter wont be moved in terms of height. They showed up this last Thursday and what started out as the guys guessing they could keep it in the same area to save my mountain incline turned into ripping out the incline all together and now the meter basically is sitting right on top of the layout bench......
I was hoping they meant just remove the mechanical parts of the meter but why they had to move the whole meter down a foot is beyond me. The guys said they were really sorry but they said it was the only way to get the new meter hooked up correctly with the old house piping and that they tried their best to keep it off the table. I guess its better to lose the incline than have to tear down the whole side of the layout if the meter was to be placed where the benchwork is. Sooooooo my mountain loop is completely shot now basically and not sure what to do with the area now..... I guess I will have to try and route the tracks around the meter