NCE Power Pro or Digitrax Super Chief??

[rrinker]

If you already have a Zephyr - don't waste it, go with the Super Chief. If you have any thoughts of going to a signalling and detection system later on - Loconet has a huge advantage over ANY other system. All the others use polled serial busses. Loconet is a peer to peer network. This is why there is little need to ever upgrade the Digitrax command stations. OK, out of the box the Zephyr only has 10 functions. Plug in a DT400 and you have 12! There are MANY third-party manufacturers who make signal and detection equipment that plugs into Loconet - you don't have to stick with just Digitrax stuff.
And as I said elsewhere, this whole "easy to use" argument has long worn out it's welcome. Please, PLEASE tell me what is so 'fiddly and geeky' about selecting and running a loco with Digitrax? It's EXACTLY the same as every other system. Press the loco or select button, type in the address using the numbers, hit enter. Turn knob one way to go faster, the other way to go slower. Press the direction button to go the other way. As for programming - this is why we have wonderful free software like JMRI DecoderPro. No one ever need to keep stacks of manuals on hand to look up the fact that CV89 on a Brand X decoder makes the loco hop, skip and jump when you press F5. That part works with any system with a computer interface - except MRC since they FOOLISHLY have decided to make their computer interface and software proprietary and not work with the JMRI people like Digitrax, NCE, CVP, and Lenz.
ANd on the topic of computer interfacing - another Loconet plus. All traffic sent to the rails is echoed on the Loconet - so you can create a control panel in JMRI, and have a lever and indicator 'lights' for switch address 10. You can click on the screen and operate the turnout. or you can use your throttle. If you use the throttle, the screen will change because the interface will 'see' the command on Loconet and allow JMRI to respond. No other system does this! This is how I get away with using very inexpensive NCE Switch-It decoders to run Tortoise switch machines.
I use very few Digitrax decoders. Most of the ones I have (well, had) are NCE and TCS - for a low cost decoder you can't beat the NCE D13SRJ, they're like $12 each in a 10 pack. And like any other brands of decoders I've used, they work just fine with a Digitrax system, as was intended.
As for functions - do we really NEED 28? Are we playing with toy trains or accurate models? How many things do we really need? Most of those above 12 are used on a few sound decoders so you can have more than the usual train sounds - adding things like 'radio chatter' and conductor platform calls. Or in the case of MTH, train wrecks! Wow, think I'll switch DCC system right now so I can make train wreck sounds.. Oh yeah, with JMRI you can have an on-screen throttle that, even with Digitrax, provides all 28 functions.


--Randy

 

[el3637]

PLEASE tell me what is so 'fiddly and geeky' about selecting and running a loco with Digitrax? It's EXACTLY the same as every other system. Press the loco or select button, type in the address using the numbers, hit enter.

Obviously you never used a DT100 throttle. It took Digitrax years to even consider manufacturing a throttle that had the digits 0 through 9 on it. What a concept!! If you look up Fiddly/Geeky in the dictionary, you'll find a picture of AJ holding a DT100 with a word balloon saying "See? It's so simple!!"

The DT400 fixed a number of those problems, no doubt about it. It works almost as well as an NCE throttle (and will soon be 2-way radio, I hear). Great. But Digitrax lost me long before that. Their decoder manual is still a jumbled mess, compare to the two sheets of paper you get with NCE and TCS decoders that not only tell you everything you need to know about setting up your decoders, but actually feature examples of things you might actually want to do!

Digitrax has improved, but their quality control has gone down to the point that I won't even buy their decoders anymore. Their documentation needs to be rewritten from the ground up.

I agree Loconet is a good idea. It probably does things I can't do with my NCE throttle bus. However, so far I've never run across any of those things as being particularly necessary to me. JMRI and computer control are available to me through both.

I've said this on other forums, and I will repeat it here: Digitrax functions... it works... lots of people use it. If it were the only choice for a full featured system, I'd have it and I'd use it. I'd probably grit my teeth, but I'd use it. Fortunately, it's not my only choice. After running both systems for a period of several years, NCE won me over... and won me over big.

Andy

 

[el3637]

Andy, it sounds like you need to use Decoder Pro in JMRI and find out what CV is messed up.

I'm planning to use NCE myself, though I'll go ProCab, not the weaker PowerCab, not quite expandable enough for me. My only major complaint? Why in the heck does it NOT come with the power supply?

The PowerCab does come with a power supply (wall wart). The Pro system lets you pick your own power supply. I don't know of NCE (or anyone else) is currently offering branded power supplies. It does seem strange that they manufacture a complete system, and then tell you to go to Radio Shack's parts bin for a power supply. I power my NCE Pro with a Loy's 5-amp box - which I also had to assemble! Loys unfortunately is gone, he retired and closed up shop about a year ago.

Re. the DT163 /123 problems... I don't think it's a CV being messed up. I thought at first it was related to my disabling the silent running, but if I set it back to factory default, it still behaves the same way. I have probably 8 of these decoders, maybe as many as 12, that have this behavior. Not the first time I've run into incompatibilities; I had a bunch of locos equipped with the old Wangrow 104 decoders. Nice decoders, but they were sort of go/no-go on Digitrax. I had some that worked always, some that worked never, and some that didn't work and they started working with no change on my part. I retired my 104s, most have been converted to NCE DASRs, the rest will be eventually.

Another thing I always do is set CV29=34, rather than the default of 38, disabling the DC option. This seems to be a good pre-emptive strike at track voltages being mis-interpreted as a DC signal. I don't have any circumstances where I want to run my DCC locos on straight DC, so I disable it from the get-go.

Andy

 

[jbaakko]

CV29 is not the only CV that can cause that. I can't speak of each CV's function, but there are others that can cause the decoder to react inappropriately. Check the CV's that deal with consisting.

 

[el3637]

CV29 is not the only CV that can cause that. I can't speak of each CV's function, but there are others that can cause the decoder to react inappropriately. Check the CV's that deal with consisting.

That would be CV19. Setting a consist with NCE sets CV19 to the consist address. That's what it's supposed to do. This action is what makes the loco take off running. Also clearing it. Since the loco then responds to the consist commands, that means CV19 is getting set to the correct value. It's just the action of changing its value at that moment that makes the loco take off. It only happens at the moment you add it to the consist, or kill the consist. Once you finish making the consist, all the locos respond correctly in the consist. Once you kill the consist, if you select the loco that has run away, it will respond normally. It's just that one thing - only when setting advance consisting CV19 using an NCE system, and only with DH123 and DH163 decoders, although they don't do it 100% of the time. 75% perhaps, and there may be some of the 123s that do it 100% of the time. I don't know if I have any 123 or 163 decoders that have never done it.

Andy

 

[kbkchooch]

Hmmmm

Re. the DT163 /123 problems... I don't think it's a CV being messed up. I thought at first it was related to my disabling the silent running, but if I set it back to factory default, it still behaves the same way. I have probably 8 of these decoders, maybe as many as 12, that have this behavior. Not the first time I've run into incompatibilities; I had a bunch of locos equipped with the old Wangrow 104 decoders. Nice decoders, but they were sort of go/no-go on Digitrax. I had some that worked always, some that worked never, and some that didn't work and they started working with no change on my part. I retired my 104s, most have been converted to NCE DASRs, the rest will be eventually.
Andy

Andy
Reminds me a bit about my old DH120's. They ran fine on my home system, but one day I took them to a club show, put them on the track, and they sat and shivered like 2 dogs that had been out in the snow all day! They ran, but herky-jerky at best on the low end, at track speed, they were better. I took them off the track in disgust, replaced them with 2 other engines and enjoyed my day running trains at the show. Upon returning home that night I put them back on home rails and they ran ok, but twitched a bit when idle. I fired off an email to Jim Scorse at NCE and he gave me this explaination. Most decoders, when told to stop a train, stop. But some Digitraxs decoders hear backround noise in amongst the DCC signals and interpret them to be partial packets, and sometimes react to them (too sensitive). NCE systems like ours are set to only send out a few "stop" packets every so often, Brand D does it more frequently. The fix is to change the number of stop packets in a given time. They must be like young kids or dogs, they need to be told to sit more often than an older child or a well trained dog.
Procedurally do this, Hit "Prog/Esc" on the Procab 5 times, to scroll to "Set CMD Station", hit Enter twice and the screen will read "Number of Stop PKTS". I set that value to 8, hit Enter again and "Number of TEMP PKTS" appears. Set that to 5 then hit PROG/ESC to exit. See if this helps with your runaway engines.

 

[kbkchooch]

Lol

Obviously you never used a DT100 throttle. It took Digitrax years to even consider manufacturing a throttle that had the digits 0 through 9 on it. What a concept!! If you look up Fiddly/Geeky in the dictionary, you'll find a picture of AJ holding a DT100 with a word balloon saying "See? It's so simple!!"

Andy

Thats funny Andy!! I have a friend who has had Digitrax for years, and got one of the 1st DT400's but was so frustrated by years of carrying a throttle in one hand and a book in the other, he replaced everything with NCE. The down side is this. We used to park a train on Wednesday night, and come back the next week and it was right where we left it. Now we have to search the entire basement (and its a big one) to find the train we left at the end of the last run session! He's running them all over the place during the week!

 

[Gene Kruger]

I tried both Digitrax and NCE before buying my system. It was a no-brainer..NCE hands down...it was a far easier learning-curve and in general far more user-friendly. 2 other guys I know, who had been running digitrax systems on their layouts for a few years both got rid of them and replaced them with NCE not too long after useing it on my layout.

 

[el3637]

Andy
Procedurally do this, Hit "Prog/Esc" on the Procab 5 times, to scroll to "Set CMD Station", hit Enter twice and the screen will read "Number of Stop PKTS". I set that value to 8, hit Enter again and "Number of TEMP PKTS" appears. Set that to 5 then hit PROG/ESC to exit. See if this helps with your runaway engines.

I think I may have heard this before on the NCE forum, but not specifically as a fix for the DHxx3 runaways. Might be worth a try, should not affect my other operations at all. I'll let ya know.

Andy

 

[Mr James]

I tried both Digitrax and NCE before buying my system. It was a no-brainer. NCE hands down...it was a far easier learning-curve and in general far more user-friendly.

I was about to post my first (or second) question and ask for opinions on which controller to get. I have been doing lots of reading and I am convinced NCE will be my system controller, though I will continue to read and learn.

 

[hamltnblue]

Another thing I always do is set CV29=34, rather than the default of 38, disabling the DC option. This seems to be a good pre-emptive strike at track voltages being mis-interpreted as a DC signal. I don't have any circumstances where I want to run my DCC locos on straight DC, so I disable it from the get-go.

Andy

Actually with the NCE you don't have to know the CV number. It simply asks you if you want to have DC available. you say no and it's done. No more DCC train taking off at max speed out of the blue.

 

[trainman111]

if your looking for a great wireless system, try CVP Easy DCC (cvpusa.com)

hands down THE BEST system out there, you said simple and easy, this system is all about that. Nothing fancy just really really great reliability. i think the last time i checked you could have up to 23 wireless throttles. They have 2 wireless throttle types available, one with an LCD screen, one without.

Great system.

I used digitrax for a while and had a few problems with my wireless system, not sure if mine was just a defect, or if everyones having a problem...

Seen NCE used before, but never used it personally, a friend of mine uses NCE and i saw it at an open house for his layout. Looks like a great system, but i cant say for sure without actually using it.

Hope this helps.

 

[Joe Daddy]

Nce

if your looking for a great wireless system, try CVP Easy DCC (cvpusa.com)

hands down THE BEST system out there, you said simple and easy, this system is all about that. Nothing fancy just really really great reliability. i think the last time i checked you could have up to 23 wireless throttles. They have 2 wireless throttle types available, one with an LCD screen, one without.

Great system.

Trainman, certainly you are entitled to your opine, but the facts are that CVP has lost its grip on some of their biggest supporters. The CVP system is dated and well the word klunky comes to mind. Comparing a CVP T9000 to the Pro Cab Radio is no contest, the CVP cannot even display the current speed setting of the locomotive without a bunch of key strokes. I hear reliability is at the root of some users displeasure with CVP.

Randy, as for the Digitrax radio being as easy to use as the ProCab, no the facts don't support your claim either. Want to switch locomotives? With Dtrax, you gotta plug it in, NCE is completely wireless. (Way easy) Then there is the ergonomic as well as complexity issues with Dtrax.

As for letting a Zepher dictate the future, sorry, but that sounds foolish to me. The ONLY way I'd consider a Dtrax is if I was planning on an RPS or Surroundtrax installation and I don't think either of those solutions are good enough to overcome what I see as the downside with Dtrax.

I'm in the process of moving from Lenz/CVP to NCE. The CVP was easy to give up, the LH100 is a different story, IMHO, nothing as fast and as powerful to use as that silly little LH100!

Certainly only my opinion, but it is grounded upon some pretty solid facts. I've owned a Super Chief, two Lenz Set 100's, CVP T9000, and now an NCE Pro Radio. The Chief, CVP and 1 set 100 are gone, the NCE will likely stand alone soon.

See my write up on the NCE Radio on the product review section. I'd rate the Dtrax S/C two clicks below the NCE.

Joe Daddy

see my blog for 16 DCC & automation articles including my findings comparing the Lenz and NCE systems. http://wwwjoe-daddy.blogspot.com/

 

[el3637]

Randy, as for the Digitrax radio being as easy to use as the ProCab, no the facts don't support your claim either. Want to switch locomotives? With Dtrax, you gotta plug it in, NCE is completely wireless.
http://wwwjoe-daddy.blogspot.com/

The biggest problem I have with the Digitrax radio isn't that you have to plug in to select. It's that if you do it *without* plugging in, it acts as if it has done it when it hasn't! There's no feedback to say hey, this isn't working, you gotta plug in. I'm sure using it every day, you'd get used to it. How many millions have gotten used to Windows?

Andy

 

[Joe Daddy]

Easier you say, sure it is.

The biggest problem I have with the Digitrax radio isn't that you have to plug in to select. It's that if you do it *without* plugging in, it acts as if it has done it when it hasn't! There's no feedback to say hey, this isn't working, you gotta plug in. I'm sure using it every day, you'd get used to it. How many millions have gotten used to Windows?

Andy

Well now Andy, that sure seems easier to me

Thanks for the additional nail for the lid.

Joe

 

[kbkchooch]

The biggest problem I have with the Digitrax radio isn't that you have to plug in to select. It's that if you do it *without* plugging in, it acts as if it has done it when it hasn't! There's no feedback to say hey, this isn't working, you gotta plug in. I'm sure using it every day, you'd get used to it. How many millions have gotten used to Windows?

Andy

When Brand D 1st came out with the radio throttles, we were told that the reasoning behind plugging in to select locos was a "safety feature". So by that reasoning, are the new D radios "unsafe"?

 

[el3637]

When Brand D 1st came out with the radio throttles, we were told that the reasoning behind plugging in to select locos was a "safety feature". So by that reasoning, are the new D radios "unsafe"?

Incomprehensible documentation must also be a safety feature then, because it prevents anyone from using anything but the most basic features. Well no, that can't be right. Because the most basic feature of all - selecting a loco - was the most poorly documented, at least in the days of the DT100.

IMO the absolute greatest flaw in the entire Brand D architecture was basing it on the 2-digit address. The dual knob throttle was a pretty good idea, but limiting the twirl of each to a 2-digit address was a stroke of idiocy. I guess at the time the thought of anybody having more than 99 locomotives was unheard of, but the whole point of 4-digit addressing (already part of DCC spec) is to use your loco cab number as it's address. Duh!! I defy anyone to build a consist from scratch with a DT100 using 4-digit addresses, without having done it before multiple times, or having a step-by-step guide. Oh yeah, the step by step guide doesn't exist. I repeatedly challenged posters on rec.models.railroad to post a step by step. There were no takers, or only incomplete responses. I finally wrote it myself. It's laughably absurd compared to the prompted step-by-step process of an NCE system.

The DT400 did away with the DT100's three main flaws: 1) the lack of 4-digit selection by knob; 2) the lack of a numeric keypad; 3) the pitiful display. But the DT400 was too little too late.

Most of us learned in grade school that our numeric system is base 10. And we learned that it's because we have 10 fingers, at least most of us do. So unless you're working purposefully in binary, or some other base just to learn the concept of base (we did this in 4th grade), you're using base 10. When designing a hardware device where you're going to be inputting numbers, it's a good idea to have... 3? 7? 5? 8? How many buttons boys and girls? How about... ten? To start anyway. The DT100 had 8. Oh yeah, none of them represented the digits. The only way to enter a numeric value was to twirl a knob until you came to it. If you ever entered machine language code from an IBM 360 console, this should give you warm fuzzies.

The problem with Brand D isn't the DT100, which is now defunct, or even the bad documentation. It's the design mentality that produced these things in the first place, and either corrected them only after much and lengthy resistance - finally making the DT400 - or not correcting them at all (documentation). Invariably, the people who think DCC is 100% geeky are not Digitrax users - it's the non-DCC user whose only exposure to DCC has been via Digitrax users.

If I were a Digitrax user - and I have been, and sometimes still am - but I mean if it were my only system - I'd write a book from the ground up on every aspect with step by step instructions to do things people might actually want to do. Example CV settings for a variety of common situations, step by step for many procedures, a free-standing decoder book for each generation, etc. But... I'm not a full time Digitrax user, and the system I do use, NCE, requires no such book. Pretty much any piece you buy comes with a couple yellow sheets of paper that tell you everything you need to know about the item.

Digitrax is actually a pretty good system - it works. It has features no other system has. But it's living proof that you can take *anything* and make it difficult. Not just make it hard, but make it stupid hard. The DT100 is gone, but it lives on - there's still the DT300, and that insane decoder manual.

Andy

 

[CraigZ]

One thing I see from several Digitrax users is the recommendation to use Decoder Pro. Seems to me that Decoder Pro is a workaround used to overcome the Digitrax documentation shortcomings, for as an NCE user I've never seen a reason to set up Decoder Pro. The Pro Cab uses plain English menus to walk me through CV29's set up. I don't use speed tables. I don't modify but a handful of CVs, for which I find a good old notebook with paper to be plenty of record keeping. And if a decoder goes seriously flaky, there's the decoder recovery mode which force-overwrites all CVs with NMRA standard values. No need for Decoder Pro and a computer by my railroad.

 

[kbkchooch]

One thing I see from several Digitrax users is the recommendation to use Decoder Pro. Seems to me that Decoder Pro is a workaround used to overcome the Digitrax documentation shortcomings, for as an NCE user I've never seen a reason to set up Decoder Pro. The Pro Cab uses plain English menus to walk me through CV29's set up. I don't use speed tables. I don't modify but a handful of CVs, for which I find a good old notebook with paper to be plenty of record keeping. And if a decoder goes seriously flaky, there's the decoder recovery mode which force-overwrites all CVs with NMRA standard values. No need for Decoder Pro and a computer by my railroad.

So true, but don't be so fast to throw the baby out with the bath water here. I used to feel the same way about Decoder Pro. However I have found that it is sooo much easier than writing out CV values, recording them, then routing around for that piece of paper. Arrrrgh!
Situations like "if I just set this new engine up the same way I did to old 97 about 6 months ago, they would run great together" will occur from time to time. The small learning curve is well worth the benefits. You may not see a use for speed tables ( I can only assume that all your locos are the same manuafacturer) at this time, but you may in the future. DP makes it a lot easier than NCE does.

I guess as analogies go, DP is kinda like Power windows, power locks, and reclining bucket seats. You don't have to have them to drive a car, but it sure can make the ride better, and once you get used to them, you can't imagine a car without them.

 

[CSX Robert]

...Personally I find Digitrax geeky, fiddly, and the documentation is exasperating...

...Please, PLEASE tell me what is so 'fiddly and geeky' about selecting and running a loco with Digitrax? It's EXACTLY the same as every other system. Press the loco or select button, type in the address using the numbers, hit enter...

Obviously you never used a DT100 throttle...

Considering that the DT100 has not been made in over eight years, I hardly find it to be an example of how Digitrax IS "fiddly and geeky," maybe WAS but not IS. That's like saying computers are "fiddly and geeky" and giving DOS examples to back up the argument.

...
IMO the absolute greatest flaw in the entire Brand D architecture was basing it on the 2-digit address. The dual knob throttle was a pretty good idea, but limiting the twirl of each to a 2-digit address was a stroke of idiocy. I guess at the time the thought of anybody having more than 99 locomotives was unheard of, but the whole point of 4-digit addressing (already part of DCC spec) is to use your loco cab number as it's address...

In the early days of DCC 2 digit systems were common as a way of keeping system costs down, but that was before the days of the DT100 throttle. You can select a 4 digit address with the knobs on a DT100 using the left knob for the 1000's and 100's and the right knob for the 10's and 1's. The DT200 is the only DT series throttle that was limited to 2 digit addresses.

...
Duh!! I defy anyone to build a consist from scratch with a DT100 using 4-digit addresses, without having done it before multiple times, or having a step-by-step guide. Oh yeah, the step by step guide doesn't exist...

Actually, the step-by-step guide does exist, it's on page 72 of the Chief Manual.

...
Digitrax is actually a pretty good system - it works. It has features no other system has. But it's living proof that you can take *anything* and make it difficult. Not just make it hard, but make it stupid hard. The DT100 is gone, but it lives on - there's still the DT300, and that insane decoder manual.

Andy

Actually, Digitrax is a great system, and so is NCE. I've never used NCE, but I did study the manual thoroughly when I was trying to decide on a system. I don't doubt that NCE is somewhat easier than Digitrax, but Digitrax sold me on it's features and I certainly don't consider it difficult to operate.