mid train helpers and pushers...


W

wongsing

Member
I guess I already know how this is gonna be answered...Maybe I'm just looking for some more suggestions. Anyways, the question here is with many railroads these days and days past that have used mid train helpers or even pushers, does anyone run their trains like this on their own layouts? I took my new coal train to the club recently, and was running some SD40 pushers on the end. All the locomotives are "pretty" well speed matched. Not perfect, but they can run together with only alittle bit of added effort. When the train went around the corner it did the accordian effect and derailed. So...How can I run end train helpers and not break the train or derail it? Here are some of my own suggesstions, although they're not the answer I want...

1.Use dummies...Dummies can only be found used anymore on trainbay and in some hobbyshops. Nearly all of them would need to be brought up to modern detail standards and they are hard to find anyways!

2.Speedmatch them all...I have no clue on how to do that, and even so, theres no guarantee it would work that well. Even with one GP40-2 on the point and one on the end, it still had problems and they are they same manufacture!

3.Run longer trains...Most layouts can't handle a 25 car coal train, let alone a longer one. It seems though that more cars equals more slack available. I may try this anyway, as well as more weight in each car and better couplers.

I really want to run some prototypical Chessie coal trains and many of them had a caboose AND some pushers on the rear. Do any of you guys run trains like this and if so, whats the secret!?

-Rich
 
I ran a train on our club layout with a mid-train helper. I set the lead engines on one throttle on the Digitrax handheld and dialed the helper up on the other throttle. I brought them up to speed together and then followed the helper around the layout to fine tune the speed to match the leaders.

The new layout my club is building will have a helper district where a separate operator will run the helpers on the train and have to communicate and match speeds with the person operating the head end.

1 - I don't think dummies are the way to go.

2 - Speed matching is a matter of setting CVs, it is time consuming, but ultimately worth it in the end. Even for running consists, the better matched the engines are, the better the train will run.

3 - Longer trains means more mess to clean up when they derail!

The engines should be speed matched as best you can, but the main issue with running helpers is the track work. If the lead engines stall on a switch or dirty rail, the helpers can push and derail the cars, the same is true if the helpers stall and the headend pulls the cars off the track.

As I stated above, the easiest way I know of is to control the helpers separately. When doing that you want to adjust the helpers so there is a slack point in the couplers between the helpers and the headend. So the headend power is pulling some of the cars, but the helpers are pushing the rest. Keeping this slack point between the two sets of power is the key.

If you want to run mid and trailing helpers, I'm not sure what to do there, as my throttle only has two knobs on it!
 
We do this all the time on Joe Fugate's Siskiyou Line - and we do it like the prototype - manned helpers. The guy in the middle simply makes sure he's got clear communications with the guy in front and he watches the slack to make sure he's not pushing too hard or (possibly worse) dragging the train, adjusting his throttle as necessary.
 
First thing you need to do is verify the weight of your cars and make sure they weigh enough to be pushed by the helpers. If you are running dcc, and you haven't stated you are, you can have a set of helpers assigned to do nothing more than help. You can speed match them to run just a hair underspeed of your lead locos so that they wont push the cars off the tracks. And make sure the decoders you use have back emf, so that way they will act like real locos and slow down and actually pick up speed a little as they go upgrade and slow down and retard speed as they come downgrade.:cool:
 
I think Fred's methods are the best, with the addition of ThoroughBreed's suggestion of speed matching the helpers so they are a hair slower than the speed of the lead engines. You will never get a perfect speed match on multiple locomotives running in different parts of the train. Unless you are running 100+ car trains, where the helpers really need to do a lot of work, it's better that the helpers exert some drag on the lead locomotives instead of pushing against them. You'll have a lot less derailments using this method.
 
Mid-train helpers will cause less problems because the the greatest "pull"/side load when going around corners is in the middle of the cars between the engines......shorter strings of cars equals less problems. Here in Montana, the BNSF coal trains are now running "2 on the front/2 on the rear" all the time, and helpers for the passes are cut in midtrain. I passed one the other day that had 4 MRL SD70ACe's cut in , in addition to 2 BNSF SD70's on the front and another BNSF SD70 and an 8-40 on the rear .
 
JeffShultz said:
We do this all the time on Joe Fugate's Siskiyou Line - and we do it like the prototype - manned helpers. The guy in the middle simply makes sure he's got clear communications with the guy in front and he watches the slack to make sure he's not pushing too hard or (possibly worse) dragging the train, adjusting his throttle as necessary.
Click to expand...

And there is still usually a big wreck on that one corner! Charlie Comstock also uses manned helpers and it is just a matter of watching the slack.

I used to have a layout where I needed to use helpers on long trains. If a train had 4 Athearn SD40-2s on the point it would probably stall but if it was 2x2 it would make it up the hill. I didn't speed match anything, just consisted the helpers with the headend and away we went. I did test the track by running a 20 platform empty stack train (no weight at all) backwards to test the track. That seemed to find all the bad spots.
 
We run helpers occasionally. Closely matching the units (DCC) is important, as is correct "engineer" work.

I wonder if units with regulated throttle control (RTC) on the lead would help. They would automatically speed up if the rear units are pushing them and slow down if loaded because the rear end power isn't pushing hard enough.
 
This really shouldn't even be a problem, bbut make sure the helpers are set up to got in the same direction as the lead locomotives.

The only reason i'm saying this, is because BC Rail had a major derailment a number of years ago involving helpers. It was eventually proved that the when the helpers were turned on, they'd actually been set up to operate in the opposite direction to the motion of the train. Effectively, it was like dropping a big anchor, and you can imagine the ensuing events. Big trouble. Apparently, the set of helpers had been cut off of a different train (one going in the opposite direction to the train in question), and had sat around for a while. When they were cut into the train, they weren't properly set up, and I guess they weren't needed for the first part of the trip. I suppose when the grade got a bit more significant the abovementioned events took place.

Though this might be an interesting tidbit, even if it wasn't really applicable.

Peter.
 
I have to say everyone has a technique...I like my Digitrax. I use the DT400IR which has two throttles on it which enables me to control 2 consists. I will have 2 or 3 locos on the lead MUed together on one consist then have a mid or end locos (helper units) MUed together on the second consist. It takes some good practice. I started with small trains first like 30 cars to get the "feel" of controling the train then I would work my way up by adding 10 cars at a time. Getting to know your DCC system well and really utilizing its abilities like this can go a long way. Most of my runs are at the club layouts that are big enough to run some long trains and "walk" with it as it makes its way around the layout. You learn to watch for the "slack" on curves and going up and over grades. One thing for sure I like doing it because it keeps you on your toes and its pretty realistic. To really throw in a curve ball have a 2nd engineer with you controlling that 2nd throttle or consist. Learning to work together and communicate can have its challenges but all in good fun!
 
grande man said:
We run helpers occasionally. Closely matching the units (DCC) is important, as is correct "engineer" work.

I wonder if units with regulated throttle control (RTC) on the lead would help. They would automatically speed up if the rear units are pushing them and slow down if loaded because the rear end power isn't pushing hard enough.
Click to expand...

Very interesting...Do elaborate! Is RTC something that may be available on the Digitrax Super Chief set up that my club uses, or is this something particualr to the types of decoders I am using? I use (almost exclusively) Digitrax DH123's and I believe DH143's...The wireless club throttles I use have twin knobs for the throttles. As far as the manned helpers, WOW! What a good idea...Just like the real thing! Hmm....I'd like to hear any other suggestions and I've never heard of the RTC...

-Rich
 
hmmm not enough info as for application on DCC. Is it specific decoder that does this? I posted this question to my yahoo group for Digitrax....we willse what info I get...
 
QSI does claim to own the patent. My BLI E-7 set came with directions on how the use RTC but then had an addendum saying that it wasn't included in the BLI decoder because of a patent dispute with QSI. BLI seems to be confident that they will prevail and is offering replacement decoders with RTC when (and if) they prevail. Not having used RTC decoders, I can't say if they'll really make it easier to run helper units but the idea sure sounds good.
 
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