DCC Ready Turnouts


FeatherRiver

FeatherRiver

Well-Known Member
This Thread has been EDITED and UPDATED as of November 24, 2023!

We all know there are several different manufacturers of turnouts - both in HO Scale and other scales - but extremely few MRR Modelers (or manufactures of turnouts) seldom mention or discuss anything about whether turnouts are (or should be) DCC Ready.

Degrees of "compatibility":
DCC Ready - If a turnout is "DCC Ready", then the turnout can be used "out of the box" without any need for modifications.
All locomotives will operate (travel through) the turnout without any loss of power or causing shorts circuits, and other problems.

DCC Compatible - The turnout will probably need some modifications to with either the Frog, or other parts of the turnout, in order to avoid problems such as loss of power, short circuits, or possibly even worse irritating situations.

DCC Friendly - The turnout will require several specific modifications, probably with regard to the Frog Points, Outer and Inner rails; and possibly a few other changes or modifications such as wiring power to certain points of the turnout, including the Frog.

Previously (in Posting this Thread) I mentioned Allan Gartner's article on Turnouts and "wiring for DCC".
However, since then I opened a support ticket with Erik of Tony's Train Exchange, and asked him which Turnouts (by brand name) are more compatible with regard to using them on a DCC Operated Model Railroad Layout.

In brief, his response was essentially this:
There are two Turnouts currently manufactured which are good (recommended) with regard to "compatibility" of DCC Operation.
Peco and Atlas.

The latest version of Peco Turnouts are indeed DCC Ready.
There is no need for modifications.

Soon I will include a link here for the video explaining and showing this new DCC Ready Turnout.

Atlas is good, but it will still require some minor modification to the Frog points, e.g. isolation and electrification.
 
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From Post #1 above:
'Soon I will include a link here for the video explaining and showing this new DCC Ready Turnout.'

[November 25, 2023]
Here are links and information given to me from Erik Fiske of Tony's Trains.

PECO Turnouts – NEW UNIFROG

[Link from Tony’s Trains]:
https://tonystrains.com/news/peco-unifrog-diagram/

From Peco:
PECO plans to gradually introduce Unifrog to all of its ranges of turnouts,
in this video we explain what Unifrog is and what its benefits are.

Link to Video from Peco


Reply from Erik Fiske: [Edited by FeatherRiver - Font emphasis is that of FeatherRiver]

> “…Peco is still our number one recommendation and Atlas is not far behind in terms of overall reliability.”
> “Turnouts are the number one cause of electro-mechanical track problems on a layout. “
> “We highly recommend electrifying the whole turnout, including the frog.
The Frog-AR is an excellent product to maintain electrical continuity and frog polarity:”

NOTE: "Frog-AR" (as mentioned above) is a product sold by Tony's Trains.
 
DCC ready!? Same as saying it is electrically ready, really! If the points make before break the electrical connections you will have issues, DCC or not. If they are power routing turnouts you will have to make insulated gaps to prevent short circuits, DCC or not.
 
timlange3 said:
DCC ready!? Same as saying it is electrically ready, really! If the points make before break the electrical connections you will have issues, DCC or not. If they are power routing turnouts you will have to make insulated gaps to prevent short circuits, DCC or not.
Click to expand...
In all due fairness to others who may read this thread, it would be time well spent to look at all the information presented by Pico and Tony's Trains before making a decision for themselves as to whether or not these products are something they wish to incorporate into their model railroad layout.
 
timlange3 said:
DCC ready!? Same as saying it is electrically ready, really! If the points make before break the electrical connections you will have issues, DCC or not. If they are power routing turnouts you will have to make insulated gaps to prevent short circuits, DCC or not.
Click to expand...
Agreed. A friend of mine invited me over to his house a few weekends ago. He was having problems with an extension he was adding to his N-scale layout. When throwing a few various turnouts to select some passing tracks and/or yard tracks he had added, the trains would stop running.

After studying the problem for a little bit, I discovered a few of the new switches he had purchased and installed were the new Peco N-scale Unitrack switches. They had come in their new packaging with no wiring instructions or explanations. And as it turned out, the trains were stopping because the switches were shorting out the entire layout when thrown in a certain direction.

Best quick fix - instead of tearing out his new switches, he put an abrasive cut-off wheel in his Dremel and cut through the frog rails a short ways past the frog. Cured the shorting-out problem right there on the spot.

Personally, I'd rather use turnouts with insulated frogs, such as Peco Insulfrog and virtually all Atlas turnouts. Wiring them is much easier without the grief and hassles of dealing with Electrofrog and Unifrog turnouts, as far as I'm concerned. But that's just me, others may still like them. And that's perfectly fine, too.
 
According to Peco, Unifrog Turnouts will eventually replace their other two previous turnout products - as explained in the Video from Peco.
Additionally, not all product types (e.g., the "Wye" to name one) are currently available at the present time.
Peco has not - to my knowledge - given an estimate as to when every product will be available.

Since Peco is a product made in the UK, perhaps one or more members of MRR Forums from the UK can come forth here with some additional information on Peco product availability?

As for shorts which may (and often do) occur on a DCC Controlled / Operated layout because most Turnouts are not specifically designed for
DCC Controlled Layouts, the product named Frog-AR is specifically designed to alleviate those problems connected with shorts.

Although some model railroaders would prefer "tweaking" turnouts so that they do not cause problems on a DCC Controlled layout, I prefer to go the route of purchasing a product or products which will alleviate those pesky and irritating annoyances.

When it comes down to the nitty-gritty so to speak, personal preferences (and how to specifically deal with "problems") will probably always be a part of model railroading / modelrailroadres; and that is okay.

Just as importantly however, is informing oneself as much as possible, of all the available products and facts as presented to the model railroader by Model Railroad Manufacturers and Dealerships.
 
As far as I am concerned there are two types of switches/ turnouts. Insulated frogs and powered frogs. (aka power routing switch) Both have their pros and cons. I use both.
 
Marlin39 said:
Which category do the Walthers brand turnouts fall into?
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According to Walthers their brand of turnouts are considered to be DCC Friendly.
Go to: walthers.com for information and a full list of turnouts available from several manufactures.


Specifically speaking, classifications of Turnouts fall into one of the following groups:
DCC Ready
DCC Friendly
DCC Compatible
DCC NOT Friendly

To get a better understanding of the above group classifications, go to the following link:
There is an extensive list of links regarding wiring diagrams and explanations on the right hand side.

NOTE: There is much controversy on this subject:
Some sources of information say there is no such thing as a DCC Turnout
Additionally, some MRR Dealerships recommend powering the Frog, while others recommend fully isolating the Frog
 
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GAPLESS Turnouts

I'm going to throw a curve ball at you. Let me be straight up-front with you i have utilized MANY insulafrog Pecos on my new layout, AND I have discovered that ALL the frog tracks need to be insulated to prevent shorting (something that many folks on the forums said was not necessary)!

There was another item about most all of these commercial turnouts that i found dis-tasteful,...... wheels bouncing thru the gaps in the frog areas. I began by looking thru history at what efforts had been employed to reduce this.

I started this discussion to record those history items, ...then what I was arriving at to hopefully design a gapless turnout that would be easy to build. You might start reading here at my first idea,...a swinging frog,......
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/reduc...208?highlight=gapless turnouts&pid=1335117110

then a little unsophisticated 'proof of concept'
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/reduc...208?highlight=gapless turnouts&pid=1335170725

swinging frog control,..
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/reduc...208?highlight=gapless turnouts&pid=1335273752

new frog idea,..
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/reduc...208?highlight=gapless turnouts&pid=1335292270

That Fleischmann turnout design got me to thinking,...why not a wedge shaped movable frog rather than my single rail version. It would allow me to:
1) use a bigger dia pin at my rotation point,...more stability and likely not requiring that long deep length of the first version,
2) I would not have to shape (file) the outgoing ‘frog rails’ to a V shape,…..(saves custom work),
3) The swinging frog would require very little rotation, and would be constrained to excessive rotation by the wing rails on either side.
DSCF9136.jpg
(sorry for the messy sketch,...the ink pen I used was faulty, and my unsteady hands in free-hand these days)


What if I were to use that wedge-shaped frog in place of my original single rail?
DSCF9140.jpg

Now, I no longer need to do any filing/shaping of the rails where they met, other than where the point rails meet the main rails. The closure rails could meet the swinging frog without any difficulties, And a small stop on either side (or fake wing rails] would limit the swing of the frog.

I’m imaging a turnout that would NOT require any soldering, nor custom filing/fitting,….and the rails are simply superglued to their ties. The frog wedge and its base receptacle (customized tie) are the only purchased parts needed. The ties themselves could be wood or another type of plastic that glues up relatively easy.

It might be operated by a normal slide switch with a hole drilled for a continuous piece of music wire linking the point's throwbar and the swinging frog. Selecting the correct piece of music wire and its flex characteristics would eliminate the need for any other springs for the turnout.
DSCF9148.jpg

A novice modeler could build his/her own turnouts without struggling thru what many do to learn to build there own custom turnouts,...and they would be gap-less and virtually derail proof.
 
follow up,..

I think I have made things too complicated by suggesting some sort of 3D printing for the frog,...its not as complicated of a shape as Andy's.

Its a simple triangular block of metal that doesn't even need that rounded end,..
[DSCF9136]

[Swingnose%2C%20good%20image]


That rounded shape shown in the one illustration could just be a separate piece (metal or plastic) glued to the bottom of the triangular block frog at that one end. Its the piece that sits in a receptacle hole in the tie structure below it. The 'frog rails' on that end of the turnout do not need to touching the frog itself. There could (would) be a gap(s) there.

On the opposite end the 'wing rails' need their bottoms filed just like point rail fittings.

Using code 83 or smaller rail sizes, one might not even need a joint in the point-closure rails.

PS: That triangular block frog does NOT need any rail type shaping,..just plain old vertical sides !!
 
In reply to beiland [Post #10 above]:

I have neither the patience or time to build turnouts as per your information and diagrams.
But I speak only for myself; other forum members here on ModelRailroadForums may feel differently about this.
Perhaps some members (?) will offer a comment or two regarding what you have stated in Post #10.

Regarding the problems and disappointments you have experienced with Peco Turnouts on your model railroad layout:
I think it is unlikely that Peco would have invested the amount of time and expense in producing their new Turnouts for DCC Operation
if the finished product was unreliable to the point / degree you apparently are inferring to in your comments.

If their turnouts are as inefficient as you claim, then the latest Peco Turnouts - which have been designed specifically for DCC Operation on
Model Railroad Layouts and which are slated to replace all other turnout products previously made by Peco - then their product will fail the true test, e.g., meaning model railroaders the world over will refuse to buy their turnouts, with most of their turnouts previously purchased
being returned to whomever they were purchased from.

That in turn, will lead essentially to a "consumer revolt", with untold reverberations occurring throughout the Model Railroad industry.
Let us all hope that doesn't happen!
 
In my opinion, classification of turnouts really only fall into two groups, regardless of DC or DCC track power - electrically friendly, or electrically unfriendly. The insulated frog, whether powered or unpowered, is electrically friendly. Everything else is a P.I.T.A. (unfriendly). Just my opinion, of course, yours may vary.

I've always been a big Atlas fan when it comes to track. Never been crazy about Peco. After seeing a Walthers ad for their track though, I kinda' like the looks of it, from both an aesthetic and engineering point of view. I'd be real tempted to try Walthers track if I build another HO layout.
 
Mixed Freight said:
In my opinion, classification of turnouts really only fall into two groups, regardless of DC or DCC track power - electrically friendly, or electrically unfriendly. The insulated frog, whether powered or unpowered, is electrically friendly. Everything else is a P.I.T.A. (unfriendly). Just my opinion, of course, yours may vary.

I've always been a big Atlas fan when it comes to track. Never been crazy about Peco. After seeing a Walthers ad for their track though, I kinda' like the looks of it, from both an aesthetic and engineering point of view. I'd be real tempted to try Walthers track if I build another HO layout.
Click to expand...
Hello Mixed Freight,

Regarding your first paragraph: You are correct in assuming my opinion 'may vary' - it does.
Having said that though, I want to make it clear to everyone who "visits" this Thread, that my conclusions regarding turnouts are based upon several different sources of information gathered from relaible sources and experienced personnel.

I am glad I took the time to read all I could get my hands on - so to speak - regarding turnouts because my MRR Layout is going to be powered by DCC; and I want as little "trouble" (problems) with it as physically and technically possible when I build it: (Stage 1 - for testing out various ideas and feasibility of staying as close as possible to the real-life Union Pacific Route through the Feather River Canyon in N. California and Nevada; and later, when Stage 2 is built by a professional I will hire to "pull it all together".

I've said it previously in other Threads on and in other forums, but I will repeat it here once again:
There is no logical reason why turnouts cannot be made - technically speaking - to allow trouble free operation of locomotives (both Diesel and Steam) traveling over and thew turnouts. If this were not so, Peco would not have invested a great deal of time and money into making their
latest turnouts DCC Ready.

As to your second paragraph: Erik Fiske of TonyTrains told me Atlas is a very good, reliable product, and is to be considered an excelent choice.
However, as for Atlas turnouts, some modifications (tweaking) is required in order to make them DCC Ready.

As for Walthers: Their inventory of track and turnouts is outstanding - and unlike many other manufactures and websites, the one thing that stands out are the words "In Stock" on most of their items! In addition, Walthers also has the largest in-stock Peco Turnouts.
 
rgeiter said:
All this talk about switches/ turnouts has me thinking about building a few using the “Fast Tracks” templates. Hmmm.
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I've always been intrigued with the idea of hand-building my own switches, and have even seen firsthand a few demonstrations on how to do it. And it was the old-fashioned way, too (no "Fast Tracks" or other commercial building aids). This allows one to build ANY size or style of turnout, and not confined to just one or two (or however many) pre-determined sizes based on expensive, factory-made jigs, each only good for one size and style of turnout.

On the other hand, since I've never done either, I don't have any right to poo-poo factory-made jigs, since they have actually helped people get off of dead center and start hand-building their own turnouts!

At this point in my life, as enticing as it still is to me, I probably WON'T bother with building my own switches/turnouts. With the availability of quality-built, electrically friendly and reliable Atlas and/or Walthers switches/turnouts/crossings/cross-overs, I will just stick with them when it comes to building future layouts. I can have my trains up and running a whole lot faster that way. :)👍
 
Mixed Freight said:
I've always been intrigued with the idea of hand-building my own switches, and have even seen firsthand a few demonstrations on how to do it. And it was the old-fashioned way, too (no "Fast Tracks" or other commercial building aids). This allows one to build ANY size or style of turnout, and not confined to just one or two (or however many) pre-determined sizes based on expensive, factory-made jigs, each only good for one size and style of turnout.

On the other hand, since I've never done either, I don't have any right to poo-poo factory-made jigs, since they have actually helped people get off of dead center and start hand-building their own turnouts!

At this point in my life, as enticing as it still is to me, I probably WON'T bother with building my own switches/turnouts. With the availability of quality-built, electrically friendly and reliable Atlas and/or Walthers switches/turnouts/crossings/cross-overs, I will just stick with them when it comes to building future layouts. I can have my trains up and running a whole lot faster that way. :)👍
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I get ya. I built the real ones when I worked on the railroad so I’d like try my hand at a miniature one. I will say that the new Walthers proto switches look real nice!
 
rgeiter said:
All this talk about switches/ turnouts has me thinking about building a few using the “Fast Tracks” templates. Hmmm.
Click to expand...

the owner of a layout I am helping scenic has been tutoring me in building turnouts using the FastTracks fixtures and guides. it looks fairly simple except....my soldering skills are not yet good enough. He explained the cost benefit of building his own turnouts that with approximately 100 on his layout the cost of commercial turnouts would be in the thousands.
 
While I have never built a switch using the Fast Tracks fixtures I have in the past (1985-1990) built numerous switches using PC ties. PC ties have some advantages and some disadvantages. They can be built on the bench, so you can have optimal lights and access, the mess can be confined to one area and the switches are fairly portable. The downside is that you have to solder everything. PC tie switches don't get out of adjustment as easily as non-PC time handlaid switches, but on the flip side and adjustments can be a little trickier since it means unsoldering and resoldering.

The fixtures are great if you want consistent size switches and you want a relatively short learning curve. It's trading time (learning) for money. Not saying that's bad, but that's the trade off.

The non-jig methods allow custom alignment switches that can be very flowing and can fit unique track plans and situations. Also, generally, if you learn to lay switches without jigs you can build any size switch in any gauge in any scale about as easily.

Handlaying is not for everyone. I learned how to do it back in 1975 and have been doing it on a wide variety of layouts over the years. My current layout has about 100 switches, a 3 way switch and 4 diamond crossings all handlaid in codes 70 and 55. I have tried a half dozen or more techniques for building switches, all worked, some were easier, some not so much. Don't be afraid to experiment.

I have You Tube videos on my methods for both switches and diamonds and more info in the how to section of my website:

wnbranch.com

Wilmington & Northern Branch

Philadelphia & Reading Railroad 1900-1905
wnbranch.com

Switches :

Diamond crossings :
 
I think I have made things too complicated by suggesting some sort of 3D printing for the frog,...its not as complicated of a shape as Andy's.
Click to expand...

...... or make it less complicated by just making a switch to standard and wiring it properly. Adding moving parts rarely makes things simpler.
 
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