Moving into new digs soon, that consists of the top half of a 100+ year old house that includes a large open attic that begs for a layout. outgoing tenant is a good friend of mine and says its poorly insulated and too hot in the summer, too cold in the winter. How much trouble am I gonna have trying to build in such an environment? I imagine bench work warping would be an issue, as well as condensation and humidity as the seasons change. Might just be better off with a shelf layout in the study
building a layout in shifting climates
- Thread starter kevin303
- Start date
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
Congrats on the new digs. I would highly recommend that at the minimum, before starting the new layout, that you insulate the attic and provide some heating/cooling system.
While I have had layouts in some very unusual locations, (The worse being my Dad's old work shack in the backyard when I was 12 was the worse, no floor except dirt!) the wide temp changes in that uninsulated area caused me more problems than my layouts being in an area with better climate control.
While I have had layouts in some very unusual locations, (The worse being my Dad's old work shack in the backyard when I was 12 was the worse, no floor except dirt!) the wide temp changes in that uninsulated area caused me more problems than my layouts being in an area with better climate control.
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kenw
5th Generation Texian
the bigger problem is you being able to use it during those extremes. I would imagine that in Winnepeg it could be too cold to enjoy many months. In my case the opposite: I had a layout in an unheated garage in S Texas and it was much too hot to enjoy much of the year. The technical stuff like warpage, corrosion and such can be minimized, but working on a layout in heavy coats isn't going to bring much satisfaction.
Right on with that one, especially if it is larger than a 4x8 ft. Spring through fall a dehumidifier is required in our area. You would never believe how wood can lengthen and shrink in humid vs dry weather. Winter months we're OK just keeping a constant heat in the room. We use electric heat so there's very little variation in temperature.
Cheers
Willis
Trucula
Drum Driver
Everyone touched on the main points. Biggest one is "you". You wont be able to construct up there when it's 102* or operate when its 19* (if you live in area like mine..you can run heat at night and air in day time!) If this is going to be your home for sometime you need to make the room a steady temp. Insulate, heat, and air..The quickest way to have alot of problems is temp changes. Everything sweats when you come into a cold room and heat it up quick. This will cause corrosion early.
Laminated plywood wont warp as bad if you use thick and brace well. Your one problem will be track expansion/contraction just like the real lines do. Curves will buckle, gaps will close and open in rails. Glued ballast will even crack and raise. We even have this happen on our club layout just because its in a warm room of an old school house.
I like the comment on "my worst being my dad's ol work shack"..Reminds me I had one in our ol wood/coal shed that had a cement floor on one side and you could see daylight between the boards...lol. I'd couldn't see me letting my best engine in any shed today!
Laminated plywood wont warp as bad if you use thick and brace well. Your one problem will be track expansion/contraction just like the real lines do. Curves will buckle, gaps will close and open in rails. Glued ballast will even crack and raise. We even have this happen on our club layout just because its in a warm room of an old school house.
I like the comment on "my worst being my dad's ol work shack"..Reminds me I had one in our ol wood/coal shed that had a cement floor on one side and you could see daylight between the boards...lol. I'd couldn't see me letting my best engine in any shed today!
weekendrailroader
Guy with the Green Hat
Boy, I wish I had known that five+ years ago.
I learned that the hard way. This is the first year in quite awhile that my layout doesn't have broken trains piled up on the benchwork and mountains of junk underneath the benchwork. You wouldn't believe how much work it took to clear off a track and get a two-car train running.Been there, done that. Rail expansion is a big problem with a temperature sweep from 40 degrees to 85 or more. Humidity used to cause the Homosote sub roadbed to swell, until we figured out to seal it with Thompsons water sealer! You will NEVER have smooth running operation as the expansion and contraction of everything will slowly degrade all the high precision trakwork, turnout alignment, etc. It also plays havock with your engines, and high heat will allow the lube to leak out of your engine too.
Trussrod
Well-Known Member
Say Kevin,
I think the area I live in has some fairly drastic changes in the weather but I'm building my layout in half of a closed in and finished garage but with metal garage doors. Those were sealed off with thin plastic sheeting and regular open cell foam around the doors to kill the draft but the two metal doors still transmitted a lot very cold air in the winter, drops down to 18* at times - your a lot colder I know but keep reading, and up as high as 110* in the Summer. There is a fair amount of moisture in the air too due to the rain and snow up higher normally as well as some fairly humid days too at times.
The garage has two metal garage doors which were somewhat sealed off they still transmitted the cold and heat and made the inside rather uncomfortable during the worst times of winter or summer. I used 2" thick Closed Cell Foam to tightly seal the outside opening of the garage doors from side to side and top to bottom and you wouldn't believe the difference that makes year round.
I's suggest using at least 3" thick Closed Cell Foamd inbetween the roof rafters insuring a good snug fit between the rafters and if you had the foam even with the inside edge of the rafters you could even apply a thinner layer to cover the rafters themselves. I'm sure that would make one heck of a lot of difference in the attic both Summer and Winter.
It's available at most building supply outlets such as Lows here in the U.S. but not sure who might be up your way? They aren't the cheapest but I believe much better than normal insulation and cleaner to work with.
If there are walls the same stuff can be used, by keeping the cold and heat out the area will stay at a much more constant temp.
Hope that offers some ideas?
As far as the table and track I did some running when it was fairly warm in the garge as well as fairly cold and everything was fine but I guess that's because I'm hand laying all the track and leaving gaps between the rail ends with no rail joiners either and I don't solder anything except the switches to the PC tie strips and of course the feeder wires for power. Now I will have to say that I don't have ballast down although that will be minimal even when I do. The rail is spiked to the wood ties and can expand or contract which it does but due to leaving some space that allows for that as well as the rail flexing slightly. It not a real good idea to try and too firmly affix your rail by attempting to glue it down solidly. Allow some freedom for it to move slightly as it will whether we want it to or not so plan for that.
I think the area I live in has some fairly drastic changes in the weather but I'm building my layout in half of a closed in and finished garage but with metal garage doors. Those were sealed off with thin plastic sheeting and regular open cell foam around the doors to kill the draft but the two metal doors still transmitted a lot very cold air in the winter, drops down to 18* at times - your a lot colder I know but keep reading, and up as high as 110* in the Summer. There is a fair amount of moisture in the air too due to the rain and snow up higher normally as well as some fairly humid days too at times.
The garage has two metal garage doors which were somewhat sealed off they still transmitted the cold and heat and made the inside rather uncomfortable during the worst times of winter or summer. I used 2" thick Closed Cell Foam to tightly seal the outside opening of the garage doors from side to side and top to bottom and you wouldn't believe the difference that makes year round.
I's suggest using at least 3" thick Closed Cell Foamd inbetween the roof rafters insuring a good snug fit between the rafters and if you had the foam even with the inside edge of the rafters you could even apply a thinner layer to cover the rafters themselves. I'm sure that would make one heck of a lot of difference in the attic both Summer and Winter.
It's available at most building supply outlets such as Lows here in the U.S. but not sure who might be up your way? They aren't the cheapest but I believe much better than normal insulation and cleaner to work with.
If there are walls the same stuff can be used, by keeping the cold and heat out the area will stay at a much more constant temp.
Hope that offers some ideas?
As far as the table and track I did some running when it was fairly warm in the garge as well as fairly cold and everything was fine but I guess that's because I'm hand laying all the track and leaving gaps between the rail ends with no rail joiners either and I don't solder anything except the switches to the PC tie strips and of course the feeder wires for power. Now I will have to say that I don't have ballast down although that will be minimal even when I do. The rail is spiked to the wood ties and can expand or contract which it does but due to leaving some space that allows for that as well as the rail flexing slightly. It not a real good idea to try and too firmly affix your rail by attempting to glue it down solidly. Allow some freedom for it to move slightly as it will whether we want it to or not so plan for that.
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Went and had a proper look last week and boy was I wrong! Must have been thinking of some other place. The attic is finished, insulated all that, is rather warm in the simmer, but as for winter he said a sweater is required, and being a rather chubby fellow myself, I think I'll be ust fine with space heater and a t shirt. So now I have a space of about 15x12 or so to work with what to do, what to do......
