Delay's, delay's, delay's

[Doughless]

Originally Posted by NYW&B

The very facts that the manufacturers have gone overseas for production and transitioned from the long-standing approach of producing large quantities of often generic locomotives and cars fully under their control and once in hand could be sold relatively cheaply over extended periods to a great many hobbyists, to the business plan of producing extremely small runs of expensive and very specific prototypes which quickly are exhausted leaving them with little or no product to sell, was their own very foolish mistake. With the not wholly unexpected turn of events seen in the past couple of years, with production problems and delays, rapidly rising costs, plus a decline in the number of hobbyists due both to the hobby's greying and the world economic situation, they have backed themselves into a corner from which, at least for many, there may be no escape.
NYW&B

NY,

The producers/importers may have had no choice. I agree that the movement of production to China and the change in the business model, together, is causing this problem. Apparently, the producers/importers are having a hard time finding tool makers and skilled assemblers. When the business plan is to constantly offer new models that come with fine parts assembled at the factory, well then, frequently making new tooling and locating skilled labor becomes paramount to your survival.

Would the Irv Athearn business model, which produced the same models in the same paint scheme, without detail parts, over and over, be having this same type of production delay? Probably not.

However, the Irv Athearn business model may have already died a while ago, and cannot be resurrected. Why buy a brand new Athearn BB today or next year when you can so easily find the exact same version, albeit slightly used perhaps, all over the secondary market at half the price?

It'll be interesting to see what happens. I don't need new models, so I'll be more of an interested bystander.

[Cjcrescent]

I'm not talking about a going back to the old Athearn model. Still make basically prototypical correct models, not like the old Athearn BB, but without the extra detail parts. Make some with all the details applied and charge a premium for them, yes, but also make a model that any extra details will be applied by the modeler.

Diesels are now, especially with many older prototypes, developing as many individual details as the steamers had. That means not every loco has the same external fittings as every other loco in the same class. By making more of the basic diesel, ready for detailing, the importers could now offer more models for sale without having to pay a premium for "assembly" on every model produced, that may not even be correct for the loco the model is numbered as.

[Doughless]

Originally Posted by Cjcrescent

I'm not talking about a going back to the old Athearn model. Still make basically prototypical correct models, not like the old Athearn BB, but without the extra detail parts. Make some with all the details applied and charge a premium for them, yes, but also make a model that any extra details will be applied by the modeler.

Diesels are now, especially with many older prototypes, developing as many individual details as the steamers had. That means not every loco has the same external fittings as every other loco in the same class. By making more of the basic diesel, ready for detailing, the importers could now offer more models for sale without having to pay a premium for "assembly" on every model produced, that may not even be correct for the loco the model is numbered as.

I agree. I've wondered if a producer would succeed if they offered a basic model at a basic price, then offered various option packages to detail the product. Something as simple as little baggies containing detail parts. For a diesel locomotive, option package "A" could be basic parts like lift rings, grab irons, hoses. Option package "B" could be more proto specific details. All to be applied by the modeler. Even include a small disposable tube of factory paint so the color will match, and 2 drill bits.

Don't know if that would be viable, but it does seem that the producers are all targeting the same customer. Walthers/Proto, Atlas, Athearn, and BLI all offer highly detailed, fully assembled models; and seem to compete over announcing new models on a regular basis. I don't know if there are enough of the same type of hobbyists, who are looking for the same type of product, to support 4 different producers of nearly similar products. Only Bachmann offers a slightly different product combining low detail plus DCC/Sound.

[diburning]

These days, everyone wants instant gratification. The people entering the hobby these days aren't as interested in building things as they are with opening the box and running trains.

I started out as a ready-to-roll guy, but then discovered Athearn blue box kits. After assembling a blue box kit, I started trying more difficult kits to challenge myself. I wouldn't consider myself a master modeler, (I'm pretty far from it) but I am confident in my (still limited) abilities when it comes to scratchbuilding and kitbashing. I have large shaky hands so I can't handle small parts very well, but I try my best and the results amaze me!

[Cjcrescent]

Originally Posted by diburning

These days, everyone wants instant gratification. The people entering the hobby these days aren't as interested in building things as they are with opening the box and running trains.

I started out as a ready-to-roll guy, but then discovered Athearn blue box kits. After assembling a blue box kit, I started trying more difficult kits to challenge myself. I wouldn't consider myself a master modeler, (I'm pretty far from it) but I am confident in my (still limited) abilities when it comes to scratchbuilding and kitbashing. I have large shaky hands so I can't handle small parts very well, but I try my best and the results amaze me!

Keep it up Eric! Everytime you learn a new skill, or technique your actual modeling results will get better and better. Way to go!

Originally Posted by Doughless

I agree. I've wondered if a producer would succeed if they offered a basic model at a basic price, then offered various option packages to detail the product. Something as simple as little baggies containing detail parts. For a diesel locomotive, option package "A" could be basic parts like lift rings, grab irons, hoses. Option package "B" could be more proto specific details. All to be applied by the modeler. Even include a small disposable tube of factory paint so the color will match, and 2 drill bits.

Don't know if that would be viable, but it does seem that the producers are all targeting the same customer. Walthers/Proto, Atlas, Athearn, and BLI all offer highly detailed, fully assembled models; and seem to compete over announcing new models on a regular basis. I don't know if there are enough of the same type of hobbyists, who are looking for the same type of product, to support 4 different producers of nearly similar products. Only Bachmann offers a slightly different product combining low detail plus DCC/Sound.

Some very good points, Doughless, but I'm not even talking about going even that far. What if the prototype you want to model doesn't use any the the stuff in the bags except for the horn? It seems to me that unless you model one of the current big 4 or one or two of their predecessors, it's gotten to where you're NOT going to see your favorite prototype done.

The "basic" model I'm talking about would come with basic details. It would have a horn(s), grabs, bell etc. All of these could be easily removed if needed. As to DCC, just make them DCC/Sound ready. That way the modeler could also install his favorite decoder/sound unit with no difficulty. Or leave it DC. Again he wouldn't be paying for items he can't use.

The modeler would then have the option to buy and add on all the extra detail he wanted/needed for a specific loco. It could even be a smart play on offering a goodly number of these "basic" locos undecorated as well.

[PApat]

This is an interesting thread. Last November I returned to the hobby. The last time I had been in a hobby store was 1975 and an Athearn BB was the best they had and I was 15. I don't like the new business model, but with the free market, EBay is happy to have the business. There are many sellers right here in the Northeast that have NIB models for the roads I am building. I think our hobby is a microcosm of the business climate. My own company is involved in the same antics - moving staff from NY to NC, then to Singapore. Then they started moving jobs to India. Now Singapore is expensive and jobs are going to Poland. I often ask when they are going to consider the moon as a viable workplace. It gets to be ridiculous. So too the manufacturers have attempted the same. As I noted in my earlier post, Bowser has seen the folly and are in the process of setting up equipment in PA. Hats off to them! I'm sure the members here have heard of the issues Athearn had this year - their RtR supplier went bankrupt and they couldn't get their tooling back. That has now been solved and the supplier that builds the Genesis line has taken over some of the volume for them. But this hiccup has cost them entries in the Christmas 2012 catalogue.

I'm not a fan of this new business model, but I do what I can to get the equipment I need. I have learned how to airbrush, and I'm learning how to weather a convincing building or loco. But, that's half the fun! We can only hope these companies come to their senses...

[Cjcrescent]

Originally Posted by PApat

...
I'm not a fan of this new business model, but I do what I can to get the equipment I need. I have learned how to airbrush, and I'm learning how to weather a convincing building or loco. But, that's half the fun! We can only hope these companies come to their senses...

Very good! Someone else learning that actual modeling helps to open up the richness that lies under the surface of this hobby!

PApat, I've never been a fan of this business model, and never will be. I believe as many others have said on here, you have to have product to sale to make money. I will not now, or ever buy a model that I haven't seen, touched, or examined in some way. I do not, nor will I ever, ever pre-order any item from anyone, no matter who the company is, no matter what the model is. I want to see and touch it first. If that means with the "current business model" I miss out on a model, too bad for the company. They may have loss me forever as a customer because I literally can't see a model.

While I do buy from E-bay, if there is not more than one picture, or if that picture is fuzzy, I will not bid. E-bay is where I sometimes get a brass loco or two, but will not buy it if, there are inadequate pictures, or I haven't again, seen, touched or examined another model as the one for sale.

[NYW&B]

An additional item that I think goes hand-in-hand with this discussion is the current unavailability of Atlas Code 83 flextrack, the hobby's standard from the largest producer, a situation that has been evolving since early this year and without question involves one of the hobby's most necessary commodities.

From what I read on-line, pretty much any existing stock ran out a month or two ago and most info sources suggest none will be forthcoming until perhaps the new year! Once again, off-shore production is crippling the hobby.

Yes, some oversized code 100 track can be found around, but it is far less desirable than code 83 to most hobbyists. This all tends to make one wonder just how long the businesses themselves can survive this interval without product to sell? Employees still need to be paid, along with the monthly bills. Most model railroad companies are very small indeed by general industry standards and I wonder how many we will see simply fade away before production can be resumed? And how much will it damage the scope of hobby overall?

NYW&B

[Charles Smiley]

Every year we should award the most deserving manufacturer a "Golden Derail" prize for announcing products that they don't deliver in a timely fashion. It's becoming chronic!

And I use the term "manufacturer" loosely -- since they just send CAD drawings to China for what they want. All they manufacture now is pre-order lists.

[Charles Smiley]

The US laser kit companies should be used for hobby sourcing as much as possible. Skip the plastic China kits if something similar is availble in laser kits. This is a type of product that can still be made here under local control and delivery.