When Will DCC become the standard?

[Cjcrescent]

Originally Posted by montanan

Being that this started off as a poll and mushroomed into a great subject, can we have a poll on who operated in DCC and DC ? I would start the poll, but am not aware of how to do this on this site.

I don't either, but here are my experiences.

I've had many formal op sessions, if that's what you mean, in both DC and DCC. While I have enjoyed both "types" immensely, I have enjoyed the DCC sessions more, as I could watch the trains a heck of a lot more than watching control panels, to know which and when to throw electrical switches to avoid shorts and the seemingly inevitable, "Who's got my train????".

As I have said, I agree that DC will never be completely replaced on the market. But I do believe that pure DC equipment, will eventually become harder and harder to obtain.

[Cjcrescent]

Originally Posted by IowaFarmBoy

Please post facts to support this because i am of the opposite opinion. I personally think that that the DC users are mostly silent and DCC users are vocal.

I believe that in the last poll on this subject by MR, which was a couple of years ago, IIRC, DC was still in the majority. The reason being was that many of the DC layout's owners saw no reason to change, or viewed the change as too expensive, and too troublesome.

I don't believe that DCC is anywhere near being "the standard" yet. But I can see a day where it will be a majority. I believe that most people coming into the hobby sees what DCC can do, and wants it. But I also believe that day when it becomes a majority is still a long time off. Even longer to become a defacto standard.

[LoudMusic]

Originally Posted by Cjcrescent

DCC is not new, as its pushing 20 years now since its first release. Lenz first demonstrated their new product in the late '80's at the NMRA conventions. With in a couple of years, Lenz gave their digital communication standards to the NMRA, which became the Standards for Command Control. I believe the first commercial units not made by Lenz, started coming out in 1991 or 92.

I'd say 20 years is pretty new by "model railroading" time ;D And besides, they didn't become reliable and affordable until the last 5 years, correct?

Each technology, DC & DCC has its place, and I've never denied it. But you are trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be. While there are more small layouts out there than big ones, still wiring a small layout for multiple train ops is a lot easier with DCC, and costs just about the same. It also can involve just the 2 wires to the track as with your basic DC. (Bachmann's E-Z Command is one of if not the most basic of DCC systems, can be had for $50, or less, esp if you go with a used system.) Now while "2 wires to the tracks", has always been the most basic of wiring, it has also always been a good idea to have supplemental feeders to the tracks, whether its wired for DC or DCC, to prevent voltage drop due to bad rail joiner connections and such.

But I'm also saying that as DCC becomes less expensive so does DC. And using the low entry prices based on used equipment isn't fair - by those standards there are boxes of DC power supplies that people are giving away.

Check the older magazines from even as far back as the 40's and 50's. On their small layout build articles, most no bigger than 4x8's, MR, RMC, Model Trains, (and probably a few others time has forgot over the years,) always stressed adding more than one set of feeders to the tracks for electrical reliability. I don't think that attitude has changed since then.

Now, I'm not advocating that a modeler with a simple point to point or loop layout, who only runs one loco at a time and no more, needs DCC, I never said that. Its just as soon as the modeler decides he wants to run more than that one loco, or even to run 2 at the same time, the wiring starts down a more complicated route. Even if its just adding a kill switch to a section of track, its still more complicated than the original 2 wires to the track in DC. With DCC it doesn't have to be. That's all I'm saying.

PS. I have to agree with the others, this IS a very interesting discussion!

I'm saying there are more people wanting to run trains that aren't wanting to get complicated to any degree. Look at Kato and Bachmann's track systems that include the roadbed. The bulk of people buying that probably don't even have interest in a semi-permanent layout - just something they can throw together on the floor or table and run trains for a few hours or a weekend, then box it up for another day. I just think there are a lot more people in that category than ones looking to build permanent layouts with multiple operators.

[LoudMusic]

Originally Posted by Cjcrescent

I believe that in the last poll on this subject by MR, which was a couple of years ago, IIRC, DC was still in the majority. The reason being was that many of the DC layout's owners saw no reason to change, or viewed the change as too expensive, and too troublesome.

I don't believe that DCC is anywhere near being "the standard" yet. But I can see a day where it will be a majority. I believe that most people coming into the hobby sees what DCC can do, and wants it. But I also believe that day when it becomes a majority is still a long time off. Even longer to become a defacto standard.

This is where I go back to the original question and my original answer.

When will DCC become 100% "The standard"

Never. There are simply people who do not want it.

Now if you were to ask the question, ""When will DCC be more common than DC?", yeah that's probably not too far off. Five to ten years, maybe? DCC is better. People know it. It's getting more affordable all the time.

There's probably huge growth in new layouts, and not so much in converting old layouts.

[railflyermodel]

Our new dWiDCC is something you should take a look at.

It puts a Li-PO in the hood, the motors in the trucks where they need to be. You can control it though DCC, DC, or talk directly to it without going through a command station. You can also set up automation where the nodes talk to themselves.

This set up eliminates the costs associated with maintaining a track based signal and greatly expands the GUI and coolness.

So we can offer you an entire set-up in minutes just in the elimination of the traction wiring. Gives you more time to model...

Christopher Howard, CEO
Railflyer Model Prototypes Inc.
rti - Micron / rti - Model / rti - Wireless
www.railflyermodel.com

[railfan]

Originally Posted by railflyermodel

Our new dWiDCC is something you should take a look at.

It puts a Li-PO in the hood, the motors in the trucks where they need to be. You can control it though DCC, DC, or talk directly to it without going through a command station. You can also set up automation where the nodes talk to themselves.

This set up eliminates the costs associated with maintaining a track based signal and greatly expands the GUI and coolness.

So we can offer you an entire set-up in minutes just in the elimination of the traction wiring. Gives you more time to model...

Christopher Howard, CEO
Railflyer Model Prototypes Inc.
rti - Micron / rti - Model / rti - Wireless
www.railflyermodel.com

Those look like some amazing
innovations. I'll be watching to see how your company and products progress. Looks like you have a future as long as freedom has a future.....freedoms future having been in doubt the last four years.


Mike

[Midnught Special]

Ok I have a few locos that Im sure won't be able to be DCC ever due to there construction (but im gonna at least try) and a few that are, and honestly its a tossup for me, I like my older engines and my newer DCC/sound engines, I haven't started building my bench yet so I am gonna bite the bullit there and do DCC out of the gate, I also have decided to over time slowly chip all my trains and all that

I do have a little Bachmann GP30 which I will admit isn't the "best" out there its noisey as ill get out but I do love that it pulls as well as my Athearn GP38-2 and that I can lash them both on DC track and they run together very well!



i plan to keep my DC controller for the trains I can't run DCC but most I see now days are DCC ready heck I had a chance to buy a DCC ready loco for $25 a while back. so I do see it already as a "de facto" standard just like the knuckle couplers

[montanan]

Originally Posted by Cjcrescent

I don't either, but here are my experiences.

I've had many formal op sessions, if that's what you mean, in both DC and DCC. While I have enjoyed both "types" immensely, I have enjoyed the DCC sessions more, as I could watch the trains a heck of a lot more than watching control panels, to know which and when to throw electrical switches to avoid shorts and the seemingly inevitable, "Who's got my train????".

As I have said, I agree that DC will never be completely replaced on the market. But I do believe that pure DC equipment, will eventually become harder and harder to obtain.

There are no clubs or layouts anywhere close to me. I of course operate DC, but I have visited many clubs and large home layouts in trips and have operated on DCC. I do bring my one and only DCC locomotive with me and did enjoy the operating sessions. At on large club I visited, we had 15 people kept very busy. For such large layouts, and with so many trains operating at once, I do see where DCC is quite and advantage. It was great. All throttles were wireless, and with the entire layout having operating signals, it was a real hoot !
For many of us with home layouts, we'll never have an operating session any where like this, and DCC, for myself, and probably many others is not a necessity. I have operated on large layouts "back in the day" flipping switches for blocks, and it really didn't bother me. On some DCC layouts I have operated on I found that shorts were a lot more common than on some DC layouts. Probably wasn't wired correctly, or could have been the equipment.

[Espeefan]

Couple things:

First, I see more DCC layouts at train shows than DC. I see more DCC layouts than DC in magazines like MR where layouts are showcased. The hobby shops in my area have loads of DCC stuff, far more than their selection of power packs. The face of the hobby is pretty much DCC. Still lots of DC around though. Newbs at their first train show are more likely to be exposed to DCC than DC.

Small layout cost comparison:

(prices from M.B. Klien's retail store, and this is all pretty basic stuff, nothing real fancy)

Let's call the wiring a wash on a 4 x 8 or shelf layout.

Bachman EZ Command: $89.99
Bachman Dynamis: $119.99
NCE Powercab: $149.99
Digitrax Zephyr: $169.99

MRC Power command DC Power Pack: $119.99
MRC Tech 4 DC Power Pack: $54.99

So $30.00-$50.00 for basic quality stuff or lower end stuff and that covers your power supply or command station.

Have only 1 or 2 locos? Basic decoders can be had for $16.00. That's $32.00 for 2. Add in costs for Atlas Selector, or good quality toggle switches and such. Pick a number. Let's call it $15.00 for the sake of argument. So you're in the + $60-65.00 range for choosing DCC over DC at the get go, or less than a quality passenger car or a couple of freight cars.

Not wanting it is a valid reason. Cost would not seem to be.

Again, I'm not advocating one or the other, but the cost difference is just not big money. If you're like me and want lighting effects, you can still find modules for these on the market, for Gyralights and such, but they are more expensive than decoders which control everything.

If you have sound locos and want to use something like a Tech 6, bingo! You're pretty much apples to apples.

Just a few thoughts

[Cjcrescent]

Originally Posted by LoudMusic

I'd say 20 years is pretty new by "model railroading" time ;D And besides, they didn't become reliable and affordable until the last 5 years, correct?

Actually, I think not. I don't consider anything 20 yrs old technology wise, as new. The reliability of the technology was very good back when I first got into it in the 1990's. All the problems I have ever had with the technology as always been related to problems I or others caused, (smoked a couple of decoders when loco derailed on bad trackwork, or during an installation).

Originally Posted by LoudMusic

But I'm also saying that as DCC becomes less expensive so does DC. And using the low entry prices based on used equipment isn't fair - by those standards there are boxes of DC power supplies that people are giving away.

I haven't seen that at all, the price drops. The price on electrical switches have pretty much stayed the same, or the more complex the switch, the price has even gone up. Yes, I've seen boxes of used power packs for sale at all kinds of train shows, but many don't sale at all.

Originally Posted by LoudMusic

I'm saying there are more people wanting to run trains that aren't wanting to get complicated to any degree. Look at Kato and Bachmann's track systems that include the roadbed. The bulk of people buying that probably don't even have interest in a semi-permanent layout - just something they can throw together on the floor or table and run trains for a few hours or a weekend, then box it up for another day. I just think there are a lot more people in that category than ones looking to build permanent layouts with multiple operators.

I don't disagree on this at all. But if those folks want to go to something more permanent more times than not, whether they research the subject on-line, or talk with a LHS, they get exposed to DCC, and many of these newbies go that route. I believe its the "bells and whistles" literally, that they can have with DCC.

Alan, I agree with what you said. Very good examples. The last layout I saw at a show without DCC of some type, other than the other modular club in town here, (they use the Aristocraft wireless system), comparable in price to a good DCC system, was a 5' x 40' monster, in Nn3.

He used Z scale locos mechanisms and Z scale trucks to model the Colorado narrow gauge in N scale. Every loco and car he had had been scratch built, except for the mechanisms. He said, when I asked, there was simply no way to put a decoder in anything. All the spare room was taken up by weight. It was absolutely amazing! IIRC, it was at a train show in St. Louis about 7 years ago.