What does it take to make a good 4 x 8?


SpaceMouse

SpaceMouse

Fun Lover
(You can think in terms of an N-scale door as well if you wish)

Okay, you all know that I think that a 4 x 8 should be the last resort for the person building a layout. It is one of the most limiting configurations you can think of, yet people insist that it is all they have room for.

It comes up so often that I have decided to make it part two of my Beginner's Design. So anyway, I'd like to get your thoughts. I'll start the ball rolling.

*********************

Even though it pretty much has to be a loop, it should be thought of as a piece of a railroad that goes from here to there.

It should have a purpose. The railroad should serve industry or in some other way, support the movement of goods.

Whether its prototypical, freelance or fantasy, it should be internally consistent in terms of era, location, etc.

If you "just want to run trains" think in terms of running through scenes as opposed to running laps like a ride in an amusement park. It's the difference between a model railroad and a toy train.

You should work from the buildings out. Find the industrial buildings you plan first, see how the address the track and make sure you can get the track to them. Make sure you can get roads in and make it look like the buildings are part of the natural scenery.

Then make sure your scenery fits.

Think about staging--if not how you can work it in, how you can add it later. The smaller the layout, the more important staging is.

What would add or disagree with?
 
Chip,

I believe a good starting point would be the one in Tony Koester's book Realistic Model Railroad Operation, chapter two. (If it wasn't copyrighted I'd have posted an image of the track plan.) He depicts the Indiana town Wingate with about a half-dozen lineside industries, with a curved view-separator hiding a staging yard in the back. And this is HO scale of course.
 
Better minds than ours have pondered this question, Oh Mouse-of-the-Space-kind. :p

I'll bet your first thought would be to consider a different configuration altogether or even a different size. :rolleyes: Okay, you gave that one away.

Is this a new modeller or one who has re-evaluated his circumstances and finds that he must downsize or reshape for some reason? The former might be encouraged to learn that he should find answers to some pointed questions before embarking on the project...or at least to consider that this function is a necessary first step in the project. The ol' givens 'n druthers thing comes to mind, what scale, what purpose or theme/era, and so on. The latter can be counselled on different shapes, different usages or themes perhaps.

Practically, a 4X8 forces one into a figure 8, or to a loop with perhaps one passing track and one or more industrial sidings/spurs/team tracks. If still on HO, there is really not much use for a yard unless the person is willing to forego lots of useful and appealing scenery. I don't believe a person should ever be encouraged to use an over-pass necessitating height change on such a small layout because the construction and operation challenges are substantial. Let a more skilled person get to that if they are hell-bent on it. (N-scale, as we all know, is a whole different kettle of fish, but I am not very familiar with the scale...except that the height thing is less of a problem all around. Although, a newbie should still stick to flat land, I feel.)

Finally, if one is determined that the venerable 4X8 is gonna be it, the user should be very careful to make it as interesting as possible with as many functions operationally as can be added without making the thing the equivalent of a 20' bench that is 6" wide...essentially a flat length of track with some sidings. There must be some passing and run-around/switching function, some running, some servicing, some industry servicing. Even a 12" segment stuck off in a corner and linked by a single #4 is better than ye olde ovalle bye itself.

-Crandell
 
Crandell,

There are some people, not necessarily on this forum, that absolutley positively cannot envison any other form of layout other than a 4 x 8. My first couple pages of the article I'm writing are about how any other layout form is better than the 4 x 8.
 
This was my best 4X8 Layout, and I had a lot of fun building it, but more importantly I had alot of fun OPERATING IT!


The Bountiful Mission Valley
MVPfirstlayout.png


Name: The Citrus Belt Ry.
Scale: HO
Size 4X8 feet
Prototype:Southern Pacific was the Basis of this "protolanced Layout"
Locale: Freelace depiction of Southern California, Or the Imperial or Central Valleys in Eastern and Central California, Respectively.
Period: This Layout would work from 1880-1960 depending on the details.
Layout Style: Walk-Around
Turnout Minimum: All switches are Snap Switches.
Minimum Radius: 18" on the right side of the plan 22" on the left.
Control: DC or DCC, your choice.

Scenes from that layout:

downtown003.png


SF044.png


diner.png
 
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-----------------Guide to Buildings and Regions----------------
-Regions
A. Mountain
B. Citrus Groves
C. Typical Main st, with Park in front.
D. Scapyard

Buildings Used:
1. Valley Citrus Packers (Walthers)
2. Various downtown buildings, made into half-flats. Modeler's Chioce.
3. Rix Quonset Hut for Scrapyard
4. Grandt Line Corrugated Metal Oil Storage Shed
5. Interstate Fuel and Oil (Or Mc Graw Oil) Tanks, Main bldg not used.
6. Co-op Shed (Walthers)
7. Model Power "The Kennedy's" Farmhouse
8. Bachmann, MDC Roundhouse, or Tyco old time paggenger car convereted into Roadside Diner.
9. (Lifelike) Wooden Engine house, the one that looks victorian.
10. Arlee Deopt, (IHC)
11. Golden Valley Freight House (Walthers)
 
I have to admit that I'm looking into a 4X8. A 2 lap setup. I have been doodling on graph paper for a couple days now while reading Track Planning for Realistic Operation. I only have a 10 X 11 foot room to use and it can't be solely used for the trains but has to serve double duty as part office and part storage and part... well you get the idea. the plan I have so far utilizes the "monitor" shaped tablework (reshaping the 4X8 to a 4X10 pointed on each end) to jut out from a corner into the room.

My other great concern is that since my Heart Attack and COPD diagnosis, I seem to have a 15 minute attention span before I have to stop whatever it is I'm doing because the mind gets crazy and I can no longer concentrate.

I'll watch this thread SpaceMouse.
 
If I had the situation you described I would consider an around the room shelf layout high enough to clear things like sofas and desks easily so that you maintain full function of the room. You might even be able to work in a bulb or two in the corners for a turnaround.


Printer said:
I have to admit that I'm looking into a 4X8. A 2 lap setup. I have been doodling on graph paper for a couple days now while reading Track Planning for Realistic Operation. I only have a 10 X 11 foot room to use and it can't be solely used for the trains but has to serve double duty as part office and part storage and part... well you get the idea. the plan I have so far utilizes the "monitor" shaped tablework (reshaping the 4X8 to a 4X10 pointed on each end) to jut out from a corner into the room.

My other great concern is that since my Heart Attack and COPD diagnosis, I seem to have a 15 minute attention span before I have to stop whatever it is I'm doing because the mind gets crazy and I can no longer concentrate.

I'll watch this thread SpaceMouse.
Click to expand...
 
Miles, that was a very creative use of a 4x8 space. Chip's layout with the urban scene on one side and the mountain scene on the other is also a good example of using a 4x8 space to its best advantage. Printer, I'm sure you'll come up with a plan that will suit your needs and disabilities. I've built my share of 4x8's over the years and the best were the ones that gave over more space to scenery and less to cramming in as much track as possible. I remember my very first 4x8 as a young man. I had an industrial spur that came off a wye track and served three industries. The rail part worked fine. It wasn't until I got it all laid out that I realized I have no place for a road to get to the industries, no place for trucks or employees to park, and that I'd have to make three moves for every car I needed to shift from one industry to the other. But, I had a lot of track. :) That, in a nutshell, is where I think most 4x8's go wrong.
 
I agree. I have read quite a few arguments against the 4 x 8. The first two pages of my article are about trying to talk the potential 4 x 8 builder out of it.
 
I would guess that the reasons for people to start with a 4x8 are many. I think some of it is lack of commitment. Somehow, a sheet of plywood with support feels less perminent than an around the room. The time from construction to running trains for the uninformed is a big factor as well. Personally, I wasn't sure if my interest was going to last long. I just wanted to put up a table and run some loops. It I lost interest, I could remove a few screws and repurpose the lumber. I have found more of an interest than I thought was possible. Now I am trying to make my first layout all that it can be. It also helps that I'm not interested in prototypical operations. Ignorance is bliss!
 
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OK, I'm a new guy. I have a room that has stuff in it already. I'm going to toss out all that stuff, buy a pile of wood, build all that benchwork by cutting, sawing, drilling, bolting, hammering, stapling, etc., etc., etc. Make a mess out of the whole area. The benchwork is so-so, but probably serviceable. I lay out 'something' to a trackplan of sorts, hopefully not a huge grade there, cutting and drilling cleats and boards/splines, etc. any maybe now I have some track down.

By now I've spent few hundred dollars and maybe a month of work (nights and weekends) and I haven't even run a train yet. The wife is hounding me, I'm getting fed up, and at some point in time, I'm ready to chuck it all.

Now, contrast that with buying 1) a 4x8 sheet of pink foam (2"), 6ea 1x4s, a box of drywall screws, and a bottle of carpenter's glue. For $30 and two days of work (one day to build the frame box out of 1x4s, and one day to glue the pink foam to said frame box), I can have 4x8 tabletop ready to go to lay snap track against my favorite trackplan out of MR, or maybe something freelanced. Another day to put down the track, and by the fourth day, the powerpack is attached and I'm running a train.

You're not going to talk a person who wants to get into it with his kid out of a 4x8. By the time the guy has bought the wood for the benchwork, the kid may have moved on. Even with a quickie 4x8, the kid might move on, and the Dad finds that ripping up a room to put in a suitable layout was much more than he wants to get into at that point in time.

BTW, those 4 days of work to get my layout up and running? That's me. Each 4x8 module took 2 days to assemble, and ready for track. The modules sit on 4 sawhorses with 2x4 crossmembers, and is L shaped (for a 8x12 footprint). I run NCE DCC, and one module has an upper level, though it's not connected with the lower level yet. The upper level is a switching layout.

Kennedy
 
Nothing wrong with a 4X8 if it is not the nth intent. It is when the 4X8 becomes the sole idea, nothing more, that the problems with it become considerable for so many of us.

There is wisdom in what you say, Kennedy, as far as it goes. For the kid's sake, sure, get them playing with trains. It wasn't a great outcome for me, as I say in another thread. I was bored, at 10, with an otherwise nice layout with a mountain and tunnel, passing siding, and an elevated crescent segment joining the two straights. So if you can stall your kids with a 4X8, by all means if the ultimate goal is something more substantial.

I think some of us feel that the newbie should understand that his fast, quick and dirty, set up will have as much of a lasting impact as a Tootsie Roll. Great for a few minutes, and then it's gone. Spending more time learning and thinking, and then building something more complicated, which a 4X8 configuration is not great at accommodating, is good advice for someone with limited resources.
 
Kennedy,

You make good points. The problem is that the faster you throw together your layout, the faster you tire of it. Unless you begin again with a good plan, you start throwing good money after bad.

There is nothing wrong with setting up a loop of track and watching the trains run with your kids. I did that with my loops of EZ track. Kids liked it too. For a while.

Then they wanted something more and I started a more extensive 4 x 8. That's when they lost interest. Between laying the track and getting it to where it didn't derail. Then it became my layout and I had already invested a grand into something with serious limitations. Even then, I could have made it work if not for the cheap EZ track I started with.
 
Mine is a variant of a plan out of an old Kalmbach HO book. (One of the plans in the book is the Kittyhawk Central. My plan is the one right after how to build L-girder benchwork. The book is at home, so I can't give you the name) )

What I was after was an Inglenook siding game with a victory lap, plus some simple switching, and this plan had it all. The plan is for a 4x8, but I am making it 4x10. (I had some spare 2' wide plywood laying around, so...) I am also changing the switching from that in the plan. Plus, it is all sectional track.

I am a beginner (like I have to tell you?) and will run it by myself, so a large layout which may require a crew is out of the question. I also have some N scale materials and I want to dabble with that also. We'll see how that goes - the eyes are not improving with age.

If I had a true idea of what I liked, I could see going for a larger layout. For just starting out, the 4x8 is quite handy.
 
Kennedy, I like your thinking. :) There's many a layout that's never been built because someone looked at the bill of materials, the amount of mess it would make, the time it would take, and said screw it. There's no doubt that a 4x8 has inherent limitations but no layout has unlimited limitations. Using framed foam, your intital investment is very small and almost all the layout can be salvaged if the modeler wants to expand to something else. If it's no layout or a simple 4x8, I'll still take the 4x8 every time.
 
Like many folks, when I got back into model rr, I looked at plans, I bought the books, I did the research, and basically looked at what some of us say as to deciding on a layout to build. I found plans that looked neat, I read about things that I thought I could do, etc., etc. I had the space, an 11x22 area of the basement where I used to wargame on an 8x12 table.

I spent 2 years massaging the plan, reading, acquiring books and magazines, and basically dreaming. Not getting anywhere. Then, I just said forget this, at this rate, I will never get a layout built. I found a 4x8, tossed together the benchwork in 2 days, spent another 2 days to lay track, and I was running trains. If you really want to know, the trackplan is basically a version of the San Jose Central out of Model Railroader, the convention layout for the San Jose NMRA of a few years back.

Was it simple? Yep. Could one get bored quickly? Sure. But, if I hadn't done that, I would still be sitting here planning and the like. That setup is about 4 years old now.

A couple years ago, after the Seattle NMRA, I dug out another MR Convention plan; the New Jersey one, with the second level. Again, 2 days to put together the benchwork, but about 4 days to do the lower level and the upper. I figured out how to connect the two layouts together, so I can go from one to the other.

So, now I have two distinct layouts to play with, not to mention a switching layout on the upper level. All on two 4x8s. The only thing that really needs to be done is to connect that upper level with the lower. To do that, I have to clean out more of my basement....

:D

PS. I had another 'real layout' epiphany last year, and am doing the umpteenth redesign for the 11x22 around the walls layout.

:D

Kennedy
 
OldTrail said:
i see this topic isn't going real well across the street!............
Click to expand...

Although I still visit, read and post over there, I find it amazing how supposedly "Intelligent" people can populate different forums and behave in such diametrically different ways. I see almost all of the same people here and yet none of the juvenile, sophomoric behavior that is evidenced in that "other forum".
Just WHY is this?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I have been treated like a pariah over there, being lambasted for having an opinion that perhaps rings more of reality than the pipe dream fiction that many choose to live in. Here, I have been treated with respect even though my posts may push buttons. Has anyone done a member list comparison between here and the place across the street? By cross referencing, we could figure out who has such an opinionated high and mighty sense of self. Who is the troublemaker there that isn't a member here.

Just my inflammatory 2¢

Scoot
 
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