Third times a charm - W&J


N

NSHO

Member
This is my "latest and greatest" layout. I've actually built and tore down 2 other tables and layouts. It's just the way I am. Fortunately, the benchwork is modular, bolted together end to side. My train room is fairly narrow, 7'5" by 14'5" length. There's a 3' door that opens in at the end of the room. The overall benchwork is 7'5 x 11'5" doughnut and a duck under. I know, a lot of people hate a duck under but I don't mind the exercise. Once I duck under, I'm in for a while.

Inspiration for this latest design comes from a forum member, who I hope doesn't mind the attention. Stein has been a motivation. His posts are thought provoking and educational. I look forward to reading his responses and his questions asked to other members who ask questions. He really makes you think. I've read countless posts from him on this forum and others. Stein, I'm not a stalker! Thank you for your contributions. I've taken, what I think is the latest version of his warehouse district and tweaked a bit for my enjoyment.

I'm calling this railroad the W&J (for my two boys) branch line. My area of the world is influenced by Norfolk and Southern. So this will be a fictitious branch running through fictitious towns called Williamsburg and Jackstown.

I wanted both switching opportunities and a continuous run for the boys to watch. Here's the 2D creation.

View attachment 30138

Layout is HO scale. The east side (Williamsburg) is accessible on both sides of the bench. I've temporarily laid all the track for test run purposes. Pictures will follow once clean up has occurred. I'm fairly happy with the flow and the way it runs. I still need to work on operation logistics and moving from one area to the next. But over all its FUN!

I welcome any comments, suggestions, critiques and questions. I am not opposed to change.
 
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I'll start the replies.

This design is very good. Ergonomics is find, as you recognise the duck under issue. I can't see anything wrong with the track geometery. In terms of operation, there are some related industries, a bit of storage/sorting room, loco facilities, and an interchange track.

So, it is very difficult to offer much in the way of suggetions for improvement.

-Maybe nice thick foam on the beams at the duck under?

-A team track is always a good idea for operation. Walthers makes an LCL travelling crane that would be great on a team track. A team track would add a nice element of variability to operations.

-more staging. Not sure how to squeeze it in. Maybe staging tracks under the layout?

I am interested to read what tein thinks, as he has a clever mind for layout design. But to my eye this looks like a top design.

Paul
 
Thanks Paul for the reply. Like I said, a majority of the plan is the brain child of Stein. I too felt this was a good design and one that fits well in the space I have available. I enjoy seeing other peoples layouts. I thought I'd share this one in hopes it gives others some good ideas and direction.

I was going to put some staging track on the far east side, but the reach was too great. Had some ideas of a view block or mountain range to separate. BUT, I didn't want to duck back under the table to fiddle with the cars :D This room is adjacent to another with viable real estate for a staging yard. May be going through a wall in the future.

A question in regards to the interchange. Assuming the trains run ccw. A distant railroad "leaves", a tank car (corn syrup), box car (hops/barley), hopper (coal), hopper (plastic) and box car (freight). The GP40-2 leaves the yard and travels towards the interchange for pick up. The engine is facing the pick up. See below. How will the engine return to the yard or industrial area for either classification or delivery?? Will it push the cars continuing ccw? Or will it back up cw towards yard or industrial area? Or, I just thought of another option, would a run around be the best, leaving the cars on the main line?

View attachment 30142
 
and a couple more. This is the south side with the grain elevator (track not connected yet), flour mill and interchange (not connected). I also soldered a couple of flex track joints around the curves. The upper joint doesn't have flux. Lower does and turned out much better. When the track becomes permanent, I'll solder some more joints and run feeder wires.

View attachment 30151 View attachment 30152
 
NSHO said:
T
A question in regards to the interchange. Assuming the trains run ccw. A distant railroad "leaves", a tank car (corn syrup), box car (hops/barley), hopper (coal), hopper (plastic) and box car (freight). The GP40-2 leaves the yard and travels towards the interchange for pick up. The engine is facing the pick up. See below. How will the engine return to the yard or industrial area for either classification or delivery?? Will it push the cars continuing ccw? Or will it back up cw towards yard or industrial area? Or, I just thought of another option, would a run around be the best, leaving the cars on the main line?

View attachment 30142
Click to expand...

I think the locomotive would pull the cars long hood forward cw back to the yard runaround, then get itself into position to shove the cars into the yard.

The runaround near the interchange is used when dropping cars onto the interchange. The locomotive pulls the cars out of the yard and heads ccw where it uses the runaround to get the cars into position to shove onto the interchange track. Possibly some switching of the cars off of the interchange track has to take place first, which is why it is usually a good reason to have an empty track near the interchange as a place to stash cars as you switch them out. In your example, having an empty track would be important if the red loco was also dragging cars from the yard to the interchange instead of just running light.

Perhaps the inside path track "20" could serve this purpose as well as being a switch lead for the grain elevator.
 
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What a nice surprise to learn that someone else was inspired by one of my track plans!

How is reach into the corners working out for you?

Your version is probably a little bit lower than mine (41" to the bottom - about 45" to the layout surface?, I have the layout surface at about 51-52"), so reach will be better, but I found that reach into the corners worked well before I put structures in front, but was a bit of a stretch when I put structures along the aisle of part along the top wall.

I ended up experimenting quite a bit with the area for the yard. It went from this:
warehouse-yard-plan41.jpg


To having an aisle side warehouse instead of the yard:
first_street_yard.jpg


CIMG0689.jpg


To trying an industry will less buildings:
first_street_yard-1.jpg


CIMG1051.jpg


And then back to a yard again, this time going in the opposite direction:
yard_river_avenue.jpg


I also ended up making some changes in the warehouse in the upper left hand corner, making it shorter, to improve reach. One of the things I tried was this:

CIMG0749.jpg


But you have mocked up structures so you can test reach, so that probably will be fine.

The duckunder on the left of your layout (at Williamsburg) looks fairly long (about 30"?), and I probably would have been tempted to try to make this board narrower and maybe move the houses closer to the brewery (and perhaps on a removable top above the stipled/hidden track) instead, but if you are okay with the longer duckunder, you are okay with it. It certainly gives you room for scenery.

Your interchange looks workable. The engine would probably just return to the yard long hood forwards, going clockwise. Or you could use a pair of engines, coupled tail to tail, so engine 1 would lead short hood first on the way out from the yard, and engine 2 would lead short hood first on the way back to the yard.

Not sure how you would fit staging here. On the plan of mine you took inspiration from, staging was a 39" cassette that doubled as the continuous run connection across the door:

warehouse41.jpg


I later added some staging in the lower left hand corner of my room, by creating a "Harbor yard" which was visible staging down in that corner:

warehouse68.jpg


But if you put in staging in that area, you loose the rural community look and feel, so it is probably not be worth it for your layout.

Anyways - I like seeing the photos of your layout, and look forward to seeing some more photos of this layout as it gets built (and as changes come up - as they always do when building).

Smile,
Stein
 
steinjr said:
What a nice surprise to learn that someone else was inspired by one of my track plans!

How is reach into the corners working out for you?
Click to expand...

I encountered the same problem area. If I have a long tall building in this corner, it's not practical to switch. Can't see what I'm doing. I also see this grain elevator being knocked around on occasion from reaching for the Mill.

View attachment 30167 View attachment 30168

steinjr said:
Your version is probably a little bit lower than mine (41" to the bottom - about 45" to the layout surface?, I have the layout surface at about 51-52"), so reach will be better, but I found that reach into the corners worked well before I put structures in front, but was a bit of a stretch when I put structures along the aisle of part along the top wall.
Click to expand...

Table top height is 46". I can reach the other side of the 30" piece, but would raze any structures in my path :).

steinjr said:
The duckunder on the left of your layout (at Williamsburg) looks fairly long (about 30"?), and I probably would have been tempted to try to make this board narrower and maybe move the houses closer to the brewery (and perhaps on a removable top above the stipled/hidden track) instead, but if you are okay with the longer duckunder, you are okay with it. It certainly gives you room for scenery.
Click to expand...

I'm sure there will come time in the near future where I'll reply to this thread and say how much I loathe a duck under. Until then, I'm fine with it. :)

steinjr said:
Your interchange looks workable. The engine would probably just return to the yard long hood forwards, going clockwise. Or you could use a pair of engines, coupled tail to tail, so engine 1 would lead short hood first on the way out from the yard, and engine 2 would lead short hood first on the way back to the yard.
Click to expand...

Looking back at my diagram, I had the engine facing the wrong direction going ccw. Long hood was facing forward, should've been opposite. I like the idea and look of a double engine tail to tail. This layout is DC right now. I imagine the second engine would need to be a dummy???

steinjr said:
Not sure how you would fit staging here.
Click to expand...

I'm going to fore go staging at this time. Staging will come when the railroad becomes profitable and can purchase more "real estate" for expansion.

Thanks Doughless for your comments on the interchange. I like the run around idea when delivering and picking up.
 
Iron Horseman said:
Eee Gads, what happened to all the ties?
Click to expand...

:D I took the advice of a forum member (can't recall when and where) of soldering flex track with the loose rail pushed about 4-5 ties into the adjoining piece. I had to remove some of the ties in order to do this. You can see the off set. Looking back at the picture, I got a little carried away with tie removal. I have a majority of the ties I remove and will replace when the track becomes more permanent.
 
update

Just a quick update. Haven't done much to the layout. I've been running and testing the "operation" to see if it'll be something enjoyable and lasting. I think with better operation planning it'll work out fine. I've made a few alterations and industry moves.

The next phase(s) will be roadbed and electrical. I'm going the route of cork sheets, purchased a roll of 3/16" x 24" x 48" from Michaels. I'll cut ~3/4" (x2) strips and make my own. Cheaper, yes. More work, YES! Does it equal the savings, will let you know.

Since this is my first layout, I wanted to lay all the track and test run. I'll be pulling up the main line first and laying the cork. Then decide what to do with sidings and switching areas.

I am currently running DC with a MRC Tech 4 220 and an older TYCO (dunno the specs) cab. This is my thought, see layout for visual. The color hashes represent blocks. Essentially I'll have 4 areas, Industrial, Yard, Brewery/Town and Mainline. I want the MRC controlling the switching while the TYCO just runs around the main line.

View attachment 30451

Each block will be on a switch and a small light at the start and end of the block showing on/off state. Is this doable and does it make sense? I have two engines that I'd like to run as independently as possible.

After roadbed is secured, I'm going to "tighten" up all my main line joints, solder every so often and add feeders every so often. No rule of thumb for me on this one. Just where I think it needs attention. After mainline, will work on "tightening" the spurs and industry lines with solder and feeders.

Comments and suggestions welcomed.
 
I need to do a little more homework/research on basic wiring. I believe what I want isn't possible. If I turn a block on that connects the main line connected to the TYCO, there'll be double juice into the block. No good!

I was looking at http://www.nmra.org/beginner/extended.html Not sure if this is what I am trying to achieve. How are you folks wiring dc for multiple engines and multiple cabs?
 
Make your life easier and go with DCC. So you can run sound engines, multiple engines at the same time, and consisting engines together. No need for separate power blocks.

Non-sound decoders are about $35
Sound decoders are about $90

Wiring DCC is much more simpler (for newbies) than DC for what you want to do.

Cost compared to the headaches you will have trying to wire that layout in DC.

You can get a nice NCE DCC system for about $150. And it's very user friendly.
 
Motley said:
Make your life easier and go with DCC. So you can run sound engines, multiple engines at the same time, and consisting engines together. No need for separate power blocks.
Click to expand...

I was afraid someone was going to say that. :( It's been considered, but the cost has prevented the momentum.
 
Nsho- dcc is awesome, motley is so right about wiring being a Breeze.
I think my old lady could wire up my dcc layout :) no offense to anyone

Yes the price of dcc seems/is steep but its totally worth it.
If you go dcc you wont look back at dc and regret it

Running multi locos with sound is cool.

They make some really nice starter dcc setups, build on them as you progress so your wallet doesnt take such a hit

Anyway, you have a really nice layout coming along, i cant wait to see more pictures/progress.
Your yard area is identical to mine. I like how you have your industries setup.

Good job so far... keep thinking about dcc :)
 
Yes, joed2323 is absolutely right, DCC is awesome! It's worth every penny. I've got a digitrax setup that I've used with some temporary track layed out. Easy as pie to setup/use and the loco sounds are just crazy.

NSHO, love your layout BTW. I look at yours, compare it to my track plan, and find the similarities a little spooky. :)

I'll be following along to see your progress and "borrow" your ideas! :D
 
With the money you save by not buying a hundred switches and a mile of wire you can buy a good DCC starter set.
And You won't regret it.
 
Thanks guys for the comments and compliments. I'm going to keep DCC in mind for future progression. For now, since the layout is small to medium, everything in reach, two engines and one operator (2 in the audience, not quite ready to handle the operation) I'm going to stick with DC. After some thought, I'm scrapping the old Tyco and will only use the MRC cab for simplicity. I will however, wire 4 blocks of operation. Each block will be on an on/off switch.
SW1 - Industrial Yard
SW2 - Class Yard
SW3 - Main line
SW4 - Brewery/Town
Scenario...(SW1, SW3, SW4 on SW2 off) engine 3016 is in the industrial park pulling and spotting freight.
View attachment 30459
The outbound is ready to move to the yard for classification.
View attachment 30463
(SW1 off SW2, SW3, SW4 on) Engine 3021 leaves the yard with empties for the brewery and pick up at the mill.
View attachment 30461
Switching occurs at both industries, mill first and concludes at the brewery. Outbound full boxcars from brewery to be taken to the yard for classification with the 3016.
View attachment 30462

to be continued...
 
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At this point either engine could advance to the yard. For the sake of this scenario, engine 3021 will remain at the brewery, engineer and conductor joining the tasting tour :D. (SW1, SW2, SW3 on SW4 off) Engine 3016 advances to the yard, decouples and moves to the service area. I'll place a "dead" zone at the end of both service tracks. (SW4 on) Eng 3021 moves into the yard, couples with Eng 3016's cars
View attachment 30464
and will transport the outbound into the interchange and the world beyond.
View attachment 30465
I currently have a "dead" zone at the end of the interchange that catches the engine before the abyss. Once in the "dead" zone eng 3016 can be put back in service to run around as necessary to complete the scenario if needed.

So the only operation I can't do at this time is run both engines effectively at the same time. My scenarios will have to be customized. I can still do this without doing any switching or take a break from switching and open one of the engines up.

As the W&J grows and becomes profitable (in it's own world) I'll look to the DCC horizon again.

Thanks for listening!
 
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