Signal systems


Hawkesburytrain

Hawkesburytrain

Well-Known Member
If you were building a signal system, what type would you use?

A - Current-sensitive detection
B - Photosensitive
C - Infrared

Which would be more work
Which would be more expensive
Which would be more complicated to install knowing you know nothing about signalization.

Thanks
 
As I model the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy and subsidiary Colorado & Southern in the 1950's, most train movements were conducted by train order, hence limited signaling for block occupancy, etc. I do use interlocking signals, mainly because it is easier to determine distance turnout settings across a 14 x 14 foot room, than to wire my control panel. These signals are basically wired directly to the rails!

However...I use infrared detection circuits to actuate grade crossing signals and bells, although I do use several sets to indicate the location of trains where I can't see their positions directly. On my previous layout I used photosensitive detectors where interlocking tracks crossed each other to prevent collisions. The problem with photocells is that they operate when light is cut off to them. This makes it a pain when I wanted to operate "at night", i.e. with the room lights off. With the development of IR systems, it is very easy to install these components, either below the surface or above the surface (depending on whether the layout structure precludes the below-ground installation). These safe circuits can be used to create block system signaling. They probably are the most expensive, but are very easy to install (when all else fails read and follow the manufacturer's directions). So far as current-sensitive detection is concerned, to me, that is the most problematic, and requires the most expertise. I use Azatrax IR equipment.
 
I went through that issue a couple years ago and settled on using RailRoad Company Train Controller Silver to control my interlocking signals. I have 30 plus 3 color signal heads on the layout. It makes setting up the signals quite easy across the entire layout.
 
What Ken said.

The advantage of doing it in a Train Controller (silver or gold) is that all of the logic is in the program and none in the hardware.

So you can setup the signals to match any scheme you desire be it a prototype scheme or not. If something is not to your liking you make the changes in the logic in the program. You are not limited to the logic built in to some hardware.

All of my sensing/control hardware is the Simple Serial Bus products from http://www.rr-cirkits.com

Very well designed, small, easy to install, easy to connect to computer.
 
Thank you all

fcwilt and Ken, I've been reading up for the last 3 hours on rr-circuits and silver train controller and to be honest, this looks so sophisticated that I've got no clue where to begin. Someone had mentioned to me JMRI and that was to complicated, well for me at least. So that being said, where do I begin? what should I be looking at?

Yes I want blocks, signalization, detection, etc, but how sophisticated do I want it to be. I'll probably be the only one operating most of the time (unless I create a club in my own house). So what do you suggest?

Thanks
 
Hi Lloyd,

IMO JMRI's primary "feature" is that it is free. Yes folks make it work but Train Controller is just much better and easier.

The best way to get started with Train Controller is to download it AND the manual, then go through the introductory chapters. Train Controller can run in a simulator mode so you can try it out. You can also run it connected to actual hardware (layout/test track/etc) for a short period of time (5-10 mins) and it will do everything that it would do if you had a license.

As far as the RR-CirKits Simple Serial Bus (SSB) products they may seem complicated because they are so versatile but once you get the hang of them it's easy. The four products (MotorMan, SignalMan, TowerMan and WatchMan) are all based on the same hardware with each board tailored to a specific purpose. The TowerMan is for general purpose input/output needs. The MotorMan is for controlling turnouts motors (single coil, double coil, stall). The SignalMan is for controlling signals (16 LEDS, 32 aspects max). The WatchMan is for occupancy detection.

I started out planning to use DigiTrax hardware but after someone made me aware of these I sold all the DigiTrax items I had accumulated and went with a completely RR-CirKits setup. For the command station (which controls the trains) I went with a Roco Z21.

All of the SSB devices connect to one another with a 3 conductor cable that carries power, ground and signal. You can buy 3 conductor cable or just use 3 single conductors and twist them into a "cable" with an electric drill. I like the fact the all of the connections to the SSB boards are either screw terminals or spring compress connections.

Hopefully Ken will respond as I helped him get started and would be a good resource for you.

A computer controlled layout is, in many ways ideal, for the lone operator as you can have much more going on then you could if you tried to run trains "by hand".

Do you have a track plan picked out or designed?

Frederick
 
I used all Digitrax boards for my application. Fcwilc helped me make sense of it all then helped me start the signal lamp configuring in the Train Controller Silver software. Once I did a couple lamps it all made sense and I went on to set up the remaining 130 plus lamps. It's a tedious process that you will have to commit yourself to but the reward of an operating signal system is so much worth it.
 
Thank you both

Fred I downloaded the Train Controller and will be playing with it for a couple of days to get the hang of it. The RR-CirKits is a whole new ball game, finding out what I need and matching it to my layout will be a challenge. Just to let you know, I have a NCE PowerPro 5 and yes I have a layout which you could find here: http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?38234-Hawks-NEW-quot-MHO-Junction-quot-layout

Looks like a good start to signalization.

Ken, I've got the patience and time and I'm very meticulous in all I do, that's why I'm looking for a system that will do the job at it's best, I just need the guidance.
 
Hi Lloyd,

We are here to help.

When using Train Controller you will need to connect your command station (the NCE) and the RR-CirKits devices to the computer. This is easily done. The NCE unit has a serial port connection. If your computer does not have a serial port connection you will need to get a USB-to-Serial converter - http://www.trendnet.com/products/usb-adapters/tu-s9.

One thing you should know about the NCE unit. If you use the handheld throttle to control a train it doesn't send that information to the computer. This means that Train Controller will not be updated with the current state of any trains you may be running with the handheld throttle. This does not prevent Train Controller from controlling trains but it does make mixing computer controlled trains with handheld throttle controlled trains a bit more difficult.

Contrast this with, say, a Digitrax system which DOES send this information and Train Controller knows whenever you use the handheld throttle.

Something to consider.


To connect the RR-CirKits devices to the computer you use a RR-CirKits LocoBuffer USB device and a SSB Gateway device. These connect to a USB port on the computer and provide connections on the "other end" for SSB devices and LocoNet devices.

To have a layout that is setup for computer control the layout needs to be divided into electrically isolated blocks. These blocks do NOT include turnouts or turnouts groups (multiple turnouts so close together you treat them as one). Each block needs to have it's own power feeders which connect to a DDC power bus. This is typically a pair of heavy gauge wires (I use 14 gauge) that run from the command station to the far end(s) of the layout.

To perform occupancy sensing the RR-CirKits WatchMan device uses a small coil that slips over ONE of the feeder wires. The coil is then connected to the WatchMan (eight coils, thus eight blocks, per WatchMan) using small gauge wire. I use wires from CAT5e cable after removing the outer covering.

One nice thing about the approach of using coils for occupancy sensing is you can install them on the feeder wires without having to wire them to the WatchMan devices. Thus you can still run your layout using your handheld throttle while you gradually add the wiring for computer automation. Another plus is that the power feed wiring to the track is totally separate from the occupancy sensing wiring.

Frederick
 
fcwilt said:
Hi Lloyd,

One thing you should know about the NCE unit. If you use the handheld throttle to control a train it doesn't send that information to the computer. This means that Train Controller will not be updated with the current state of any trains you may be running with the handheld throttle. This does not prevent Train Controller from controlling trains but it does make mixing computer controlled trains with handheld throttle controlled trains a bit more difficult.

Contrast this with, say, a Digitrax system which DOES send this information and Train Controller knows whenever you use the handheld throttle.

Something to consider.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply Frederick

This comment scares me a bit, yes I do use a handheld throttle, so are you saying that I would be better off switching to Digitrax?
I still have a long ways before installing signalization, but since I always plan ahead, I need to know these things so I don't have to undo stuff later.

How did you know where to have blocks, where to install your signals and what was required to make everything work?

Thanks
 
Hawkesburytrain said:
This comment scares me a bit, yes I do use a handheld throttle, so are you saying that I would be better off switching to Digitrax?
Click to expand...

I started with the NCE unit because I like the handheld throttle better. Because of the issue with the NCE I switched to Digitrax.

I have never been terribly impressed with Digitrax hardware (aside from the decoders) so I recently switched to a Roco Z21 (not the z21). This is an expensive but state of the art unit.

It supports a number of different control buses so it is compatible with many brands of hardware. For example, I could if desired use my existing Digitrax handhelds with the Z21.

http://www.z21.eu/en/FAQ-Support/FAQ

The recently announced a nice wireless handheld which I have on order.

http://www.roco.cc/en/product/235722-0-0-2-1-0-0-004001/products.html

If prefer you can use a smart phone or table as your handheld device as they have an application to support this.

Some folks like the tactile feel of the "traditional" handheld, others like touch screen. I use both as the touch screen application provides some setup features that the traditional handhelds do not or make more difficult.

It's really a matter of personal preference.

Hawkesburytrain said:
How did you know where to have blocks, where to install your signals and what was required to make everything work?
Click to expand...

Blocking Examples 1.jpg

See attached. Any stretch of track between turnouts that you consider long enough to hold a train (or perhaps just a loco) can be turned into a block. Blocks can be of any length but ideally they would all be the same length as your longest train. In practice this doesn't happen very often. On my layout I have blocks from 2 feet long to 8 feet long. Train Controller can handle a train that spans more then one block. At a minimum you need two blocks for each train you wish to have running. So to run four trains you would need eight blocks. However allowing for three or four blocks per train makes for smoother operation. So for the four trains you would provide have twelve or sixteen blocks.

That's it in a nutshell but we can help you block your layout.

Do you create your layout plan in one of the track planning programs?

Frederick
 
Yes Frederick, the layout was created with AnyRail and I have the file.

Your explanation of blocks is a start to my learning, I'm a little bit smarter today
 
Hawkesburytrain said:
Which would be more complicated to install knowing you know nothing about signalization.
Click to expand...
The complexity of a signalling system is not the sensor but interpreting the "sense" and getting it to act upon the signals.

A current sensing system requires something to draw current to sense, hence all equipment must be so equipped (like lighting for passengers cars or electrical wheel sets on freight cars).

Photo sensing whether it is visible or infrared will sense anything the cuts the beam, so equipment doesn't need to be modified.

The complexity also depends if you want Centralized Traffic Control (CTC) or just Automatic Block Signalling (ABS).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hawkesburytrains:

If you just want a simple train signal system, take a look at Logic Rail website and at their Signal Animators. They operate with one sensor in the rails that triggers a Tomar three light signal to turn red, then yellow and then again green. There is a 10 or 30 second delay.

Works great for smaller or medium size layouts without a lot of work and electronics.

Installation is simple.

Thanks.

Greg
 
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