Signal and turnout control options


Odyknuck

Member
Been looking at the options of signal and turnout control. I will be using JMRI no matter what the system. I will be using NCE for train control. The choices are down to using the modules that NCE offers or run a seperate Localnet setup using RR-cirkits. Any thoughts and or experiences would be appreciated. Thanks in advance
 
I use the NCE switch it and switch eight and am quite happy with them. I run a Digitrax system and control it with the DT402 throttle. I have no experience with the RR cirkits so no help there I guess.
 
Hi,

RR-CirKits to be sure.

Aside from a Roco Z21 to run the trains on my layout (which is computer controlled) everything else (occupancy sensing, turnout control, signal control, uncoupler control, etc) is done with a varieity of RR-CirKits devices.

I started with TC-64s but when the Simple Serial Bus products came out I switched over and did all new work with them.

The designs are "state of the art" and they are all derived from the same basic unit.

Very well thought out.

And the customer support is top notch.

When someone put me onto the RR-CirKits stuff I has not yet started building my layout but had been accumulating various Digitrax items.

I sold all of the Digitrax and went with RR-CirKits.

Never looked back.

Highly recommended.

Frederick
 
I'm looking to control turnouts and signals locally and thru JMRI panel pro via a dispatcher during operating session's.

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I'm looking to control turnouts and signals locally and thru JMRI panel pro via a dispatcher during operating session's.
When I get back to the museum I'll check to see what is used there. That is almost what we do. We don't have JMRI though we have a real dispatching panel, but same concept. Plus we have an option for the dispatcher to revoke the local control. It is called locking and unlocking local control. That was all put in before I began volunteering there.
 
I am thinking i want a separate system to control signals and turnouts. This would make troubleshooting much easier not sharing the same buss.

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When I get back to the museum I'll check to see what is used there. That is almost what we do. We don't have JMRI though we have a real dispatching panel, but same concept. Plus we have an option for the dispatcher to revoke the local control. It is called locking and unlocking local control. That was all put in before I began volunteering there.
What ever happened with this?

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I have been reading some of the product manuals and they look promising.

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The RR-CirKits products are well designed, well made, well supported, versatile, reliable, cost effective and easy to install.

I just recently finished installing 81 three aspect signals on my layout using the SignalMan-C units.

Frederick
 
I am also interested in hearing more about this as well but please be sure to take care of what's most important. I hope everyone is doing well or will be ok.

Dave
 
I am also interested in hearing more about this as well but please be sure to take care of what's most important. I hope everyone is doing well or will be ok.
Forgot about this thread. The museum's detection, signalling. and control is 100% CMRI (Bruce Chubb, Model Railroader, 1985), but has custom written software to connect it all to the real dispatcher's panel.
 
Does anyone have a good tutorial or link for a good tutorial that explains the "basics" of signals, controlling them and the same for turnouts - how they work/are wired. I'm looking at adding them to my layout when I get back but I need to understand the basic operation of how the signals work or are controlled before I start shopping for items.

I'm currently running DCC Prodigy Advance2 system in N scale.

Thanks for any help or suggestions.

Steve
 
Hi SteveNot sure about a tutorial for these, but as for signalling since you are modelling BNSF you might like to look at the JMRI mast signalling since it includes a BNSF signal system that even includes the semaphores as well as the coloured lights. Unless your signalling is going to be very simple you will really need a computer of some sort to control it.DCC signal decoders are available from several manufacturers. The Signalist SC1 decoder might be interesting for you since it has built in BNSF mast definitions, but other decoders are available that you can probably get to work OK. There is a BNSF rulebook you can reference too. There are a lot of choices for turnout control, so you will have to decide what you want to do:-
  • Snap-action solenoids - quite expensive when DCC controlled, especially if you need to switch frog polarity but simple to understand.
  • Slow motion - Tortoise and similar. Some might be a bit big for N-gauge but quite easy to understand and control from DCC.
  • Servos - Quite cheap and slow motion, but need a special servo decoder.
Suzie x

Suzie x,

Thanks for the reply and feedback. I've been reading up on the various types of signals and controllers plus the turnout controllers.

For the turnouts, I'm definitely going the tortoise slow motion to replace my manual throw switches. Seems they are pretty easy installation and straight forward wiring. Not sure if I want to control them DCC or wire to switches mounted on the fascia yet.... Any suggestions or pros/cons of either are appreciated.

For the signals I'm still a bit confused, seems like there are a lot of options out there.... which I'm still reading up on but I guess I'm still a bit confused as to what I would need besides the actual - signal, signal controller and computer (if needed) and how they are all wired up.....

I've read some use optical detectors, some read current drops and others are used in conjunction with the transponders on the DCC equipped locomotives. Is there additional hardware needed besides the signal controller and how is it powered etc?

Thanks again in advance!
Steve
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dont forget about the need to add resistors to your rolling stock wheels for detection.

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Steve

If you are going to be doing signalling, the computer will need to know the position of turnouts to be able to set the aspects so controlling your Tortoises from DCC will make that easier. At the very least you will have to connect a feedback encoder to the tortoise (which is nice to have, but strictly necessary if the turnouts are DCC controlled).

For a computer you can use an old one that you have lying around, or if you want to buy one the Raspberry Pi is very good value and small enough to not get in the way - just screw it under the baseboard and plug in a TV and wireless mouse/keyboard when required.

As well as the computer and signal decoders you will need some track occupancy detectors. As far as I am aware MRC don't have anything so you will have to get a system from another supplier. Probably something based on Loconet, S88, or possibly the new NMRA LCC bus will be easiest. Whichever you choose you will need to buy matching computer interface and feedback encoders.

There are three main types of detector:-
  • Current detection using a transformer. Usually the best system where you just run the feed wire to each block through a ferrite transformer. NCE BD20 is quite popular.
  • Current detection using diode drop. Cheaper than the transformers, but you do get a small voltage drop which might be noticeable.
  • Optical where you reflect an infrared beam off the bottom of the train. The Heathcote IRDOT is probably the most popular of these.

It is usually best to install a mixture of transformer (long blocks) and optical (short blocks) to achieve the best result.

How is it powered? Depends on the individual products!


Suzie X,


Thanks for the reply and sorry for the delay getting back.


I have an old desktop in the garage I can use for signals, I've also got my laptop I could dedicate to them too if I choose too...


Right now the layout is running a MRC Prodigy Advance 2 DCC system. I was running DC blocks prior to that and upgraded to DCC, most of the insulated joiners are still on the layout. I've been looking at upgrading to a Digitrax system since the MRC system doesn't have loconet or the equivalent. Most of my decoders in the loco's are digitrax and it seems they have the most options....


I've found a couple DCC digitrax systems - not sure if these are good for the $$ or too much for what I need.


One is a "Duplex Equipped Super Empire Builder Xtra" - DB150 Command station/Super Loconet, DT402D throttle, VR92 Duplex transceiver, PS14 power supply, 5Amp for $460.


Other is a "EVOD Evolution Advanced 5A/8A Duplex Starter Set" - DCS210 Command station/super loconet, DT500D throttle, VR92 Duplex transceiver, 5/8Amp for $660.


Not sure if I should just bite the bullet and upgrade to Digitrax system, feedback or recommendations are welcome......


Do you have any recommendations for the matching computer interface and feedback encoders?


Thanks again,
Steve
 
Hi Steve,

Do you like the Digitrax throttles?

For many folks the handheld throttles can be a deciding factor simply because you may strong feelings about the design from one brand or another.

For example I don't happen to like the Digitrax throttles even though they are quite capable.


I dumped my Digitrax hardware in favor of a Roco Z21 for a number of reasons.

One is that their handheld suits me better but as I said that can be a very personal thing. The are also bringing out a WiFi version of their handheld.

Two if I am in the mood I can use a tablet or a smart phone for a "touch screen handheld throttle using the Roco app for this purpose.

Three the Z21 has a LocoNet network interface which is a very good thing for a controlling turnouts, signals and occupancy sensing.

In fact you can use Digitrax throttles with it.

There are many products out there that are LocoNet compatible and you can use them with the Z21.


Suzie X mentioned the different types of occupancy sensors.

Current sensing with transformers is the way to go for a couple of reasons and if you go with the RR-CirKits WatchMan the price is right in line with the popular Digitrax BDL168 which uses diodes.

One price I saw on the BDL168 was $120 which works out to $7.50 per sensor.

The current price of the RR-CirKits WatchMan with coils is $60 which works out to $7.50 per sensor.

The reason I like transformer sensing is there is no voltage loss AND the block power wiring is totally separate from the occupancy sensor wiring (other then one block feeder wire having to go through the transformer coil.


As to a computer interface device - if you are going with Digitrax the newer units like the DCS240 have a USB connection built-in. For the ones that don't have that you can use a RR-CirKits LocoBuffer-USB device.

If you go with the Roco it has a network connection built in and nothing else is needed.


If you are feeling very adventurous you might take a look at a Digikeijs DR5000 - an amazing unit with LocoNet, ExpressNet connections and more.

The one "downside" is that you have to use some other brand of handhelds as Digikeijs is not making any handhelds to date - though they are working on an app for tablets/phones.

http://www.digikeijs.com/dr5000-adj-dcc-multi-bus-central.html


Feel free to ask any questions you may have.

Frederick
 



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