Operations: Switch List Sorting Order


IronBeltKen

IronBeltKen

Lazy Daydreamer
Imagine an op session where you are the yardmaster, and you need to build a mixed-freight local based on the following info:

Road.Number..Type........Length..Color.....Destination
------------------------------------------------------------
PRR..22587...Gondola.....52ft....Brown.....Atwell Bros Pipe Co.
B&O..125524..Gondola.....52ft....Black.....Atwell Bros Pipe Co.
UTLX.30291...TankCar.....45ft....White.....Sanford Chemical
B&O..601322..HopperCovd..35ft....Gray......LaFarge Cement
B&O..602841..HopperCovd..35ft....Gray......LaFarge Cement
B&O..601297..HopperCovd..35ft....Gray......LaFarge Cement
B&O..603124..HopperCovd..35ft....Gray......LaFarge Cement
SOU..38290...BoxCar......50ft....Brown.....Cap City Ind Park
B&O..425801..BoxCar......50ft....DkBlue....Cap City Ind Park
B&O..411605..BoxCar......40ft....Brown.....Cap City Ind Park
NYC..52083...FlatBkHd....52ft....Black.....Cap City Ind Park

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Q: Would the block of cars headed for Cap City be positioned at the front of the train (behind the locomotive), or at the rear (by the caboose)?

In the above scenario, it is critical that the Cap City cars be at the tail end of the train, otherwise gridlock will occur. Is there some type of prototype standard that dictates where those cars should appear on a switchlist [i.e. top or bottom], or does it vary among the different railroads?

Inquiring minds want to know...:)
 
Ken: Question, are all of the cars ordered into the respective customer sidings? If so, the train is already blocked by consignee. The only exception, would be the tank car, if it is loaded dangerous, it must be buried 5 from engine and 5 from cabin. Otherwise, it's good where it's at.

Other considerations: Are the customers in station order? Using your list, is the customer that gets the gonds at the first location after leaving the yard?

The SA31, going down the Coast Line, would be blocked Cliffwood, Anchor Glass; Matawan, Pride Made; Little Silver, Builders General Supply; Neptune, Asbury Park Press; and Asbury Park, Monmouth Plastic, leaving Browns Yard. At Cliffwood, we would switch Anchor Glass, roughly 12 cars in, 12 cars out, 3 different commodities. When complete, we would leave the outbound cars on the siding. Proceeding West, we would drill Pride Made, 2out, 2 in, then run West to Little Silver, and give Builders a drill, 2 to 3 out, 2 to 3 in, then run to Neptune drill the press, then run around our train. On the way back, we would stop in Asbury Park, and drill the plastic place. The Plastic cars were on the rear West, became head out going east. We would return to Cliffwood, and double the outbounds from Anchor Glass to the rest of the train and proceed East to Browns. At each location, we would hold on to all the inbounds to pull the outbounds, then spot the head out cars. That way the inbound for the next place was always against the engine.

There are procedures to follow in blocking trains, especially local freights. They differ not only by railroad, but by location on a given railroad. The prime consideration, is to keep things simple. Special consideration must be given to unusual customer's circumstance. such as a customer located on a switchback.
 
WJLI26 said:
Ken: Question, are all of the cars ordered into the respective customer sidings? If so, the train is already blocked by consignee. The only exception, would be the tank car, if it is loaded dangerous, it must be buried 5 from engine and 5 from cabin. Otherwise, it's good where it's at.
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Joe, thanks for responding! The cars are indeed blocked in order of the customers they are suppose to visit. I normally do try to put five cars on either side of my hazardous cargo tank cars, I just threw this hypothetical list together as quickly as I could while I was getting ready to leave the office.

Other considerations: Are the customers in station order? Using your list, is the customer that gets the gonds at the first location after leaving the yard?
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Yes, a "real" switchlist [like the ones I generate with my JMRI software] does include the town names ahead of the customer names; the pipe dealer is actually at the first station out of the yard.

There are procedures to follow in blocking trains, especially local freights. They differ not only by railroad, but by location on a given railroad. The prime consideration, is to keep things simple. Special consideration must be given to unusual customer's circumstance. such as a customer located on a switchback.
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The customer at the end - Cap City Industrial Park - is on a facing-point spur which hangs off a full [train-length] siding. The loco is supposed to do a runaround move to the back of the train, pluck off the half-dozen cars for the industrial park [along with the caboose], and push them up the Cap City spur which has an extra track at the end for swapping the inbounds and outbounds.

At my most recent op session, a novice yardmaster built the train backwards:rolleyes:, taking the cars at the top of the list and putting those in front of the caboose. The end result was that the conductor of the Local needed half of the adjoining block to pull his entire train back far enough to clear the turnout, and then be able to push the setout cars to their target spur. Problem was that another train was being held in that block as a 3rd train occupied the main in the following block ahead of it, leaving no space for the Local to do his necessary maneuvers.

Lesson learned: For future op sessions I will have to print explicit instructions at the top of the switchlist, telling the crews to build the train from the bottom up. [Better yet, I'll pre-build the dang train myself!]
 
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Just been watching all this as we've never, far as I know, actually built a train in this manner at the club, possibly because there's only passenger stations around the layout (which was originally designed to represent typical QR scenery and operation with freight being secondary, if at all). As an idea for eliminating mistakes like you mentioned, wouldn't it make it simple to just indicate at top and bottom of the list, the loco/s by type and number assigned to the train for that session and ditto for the Caboose at the bottom. Would that make it look more prototypical? Make the order of assembly of the train beyond doubt....well.. hopefully.
 
Toot,

The problem started when the guy who had always been my yardmaster before - who knew exactly how to interpret these switchlists - had problems with his vision, so he couldn't take the job. He nominated as his substitute, a guest operator who had lots of experience doing YM work on other layouts but never on mine. He simply built the train in the same way he had always done it before (top list items toward the rear, bottom cars toward the front) and I was too distracted with other issues to catch the mistake in time.

From now on, I'll definitely have a special note at the top specifying the correct ordering sequence!

[BTW - The manifest document used by the train's conductor does include the loco #s on top and caboose # at bottom, but the YM typically never sees this...]
 
Ken:

Keep in mind that on the prototype, everything follows a certain rhythm. The same tasks are performed at approximately the same time every day. After a while, making up trains is so routine, it becomes a semi-automated process. Enter the extra yardmaster, who may work different tours, at different yards each day. He, (or she), is not conscious of the rhythm and flow, and as such can (and will), upset the delicate balance of a smooth operation. Note, that an extra Conductor can have a similar effect on a crew, and that will spill over to the whole operation.

Translate this to a club or home layout that conducts operating sessions, and you get the same result, when someone not in tune to the flow of the operation, is involved. Which is essentially what you related to Toot, concerning your last operating session.

I will go out on a limb here, and state that when it comes to operations, a layout becomes its own prototype, as each one is as unique as each yard is. Your operating sessions evolve into a standard, and each participant knows their function, and how the operation is supposed to work. Doesn't matter, what railroad you choose to emulate, it works the same way.

Linden (GM), and Metuchen (Ford), for example were similar yards, about 8 miles apart, on the NEC. Both primarily served Auto plants. Yet the operations, were totally different. The flow was different, and the focus was different. Most of the regular yardmasters and crews were familiar with both operations, as they worked in both locations, yet the extra man (guest operator), would normally function better at Linden, because the focus at Linden was the "Plant". At Metuchen, the plant was only part of the operation, which included several large outlying industrial centers.

Trying to add additional instructions to "fool proof" procedures, may not be the best approach, as the operating problem created by the inexperienced yardmaster, operator, is but another operating challenge, to enliven operating sessions.
 
CSX_road_slug said:
Imagine an op session where you are the yardmaster, and you need to build a mixed-freight local based on the following info:

Road.Number..Type........Length..Color.....Destination
------------------------------------------------------------
PRR..22587...Gondola.....52ft....Brown.....Atwell Bros Pipe Co.
B&O..125524..Gondola.....52ft....Black.....Atwell Bros Pipe Co.
UTLX.30291...TankCar.....45ft....White.....Sanford Chemical
B&O..601322..HopperCovd..35ft....Gray......LaFarge Cement
B&O..602841..HopperCovd..35ft....Gray......LaFarge Cement
B&O..601297..HopperCovd..35ft....Gray......LaFarge Cement
B&O..603124..HopperCovd..35ft....Gray......LaFarge Cement
SOU..38290...BoxCar......50ft....Brown.....Cap City Ind Park
B&O..425801..BoxCar......50ft....DkBlue....Cap City Ind Park
B&O..411605..BoxCar......40ft....Brown.....Cap City Ind Park
NYC..52083...FlatBkHd....52ft....Black.....Cap City Ind Park

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Q: Would the block of cars headed for Cap City be positioned at the front of the train (behind the locomotive), or at the rear (by the caboose)?
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With out knowing the order of the stations, which end of the list is the front and which is the back and what is in the cars I could not tell you if it was built right. Some prototype train lists are listed Back to front and switch lists are generally listed in station order.

Some labor agreements required trains local trains to be built in station order. In that case you don't have a choice (unless you want to pay the time claims), EXCEPT if you need to bury cars for hazmat or train placement requirements. If the train is built in statin order then the cars for the first station will be against the engine and the cars for the last station will be next to the caboose.

If the stations were in order Origin-Atwell-Lafarge-Cap City-Termination AND the list was listed head to rear (PRR next to the engine and NYC next to the caboose) then the list would be in station order.

In the above scenario, it is critical that the Cap City cars be at the tail end of the train, otherwise gridlock will occur. Is there some type of prototype standard that dictates where those cars should appear on a switchlist [i.e. top or bottom], or does it vary among the different railroads?
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There is no industry standard. It also depends on what you mean by a "switchlist". The prototype definition may be different than the model definition and varies by railroad and era. On a model railroad any piece of paper you give a crew to move cars is a "switchlist". Using the UP for example, the list of cars in a track is a "track list" and is in the order the cars are physically standing in the track, from whatever the standard direction is for that particular yard. A switchlist is used by classification jobs to switch cars in a yard and the cars are listed in the standing order of the cars in the track with the car furthest from the switch engine at the top of the list. A train list is a list of the cars on a train and on the UP is listed from rear to front, in order, regardless of where the cars go. A work order is a list of cars to be picked up and set out by a particular train, it is in order by "block" or by station and the cars for each station in the set outs are listed in the standing order in the train, while the pick ups are listed in the last known order of the cars in track from which they are being picked up.

The only Federal requirement for consists is that trains carrying placarded hazmat cars have to have a list showing the position of the hazmat cars in the train.

The reason I mentioned that I needed to know what was in the cars to answer the question is that unless I know what's in the cars I don't know if the tank car needs cover and unless I know whether the pipe gons are loaded or not, I don't know whether they can be placed next to a loaded tank car of hazmat.
 
Dave - Even though you are responding to Ken's post, many thanks for the information that you posted. It will help me when I try to make some better sense of my switching. I am actually using a program that I think you may have provided many many years ago called "Car Cards" or something similar. I have added some customization to the original.

Willie
 
Dave, thanks for your detailed description. It pretty much confirms what I suspected all along - that the practice [listing front-to-rear versus rear-to-front] varies over the different railroads. Interesting you should mention UP as an example - IIRC, my substitute yardmaster on that chaotic day was in fact a UP modeler! Guess I really need to talk to somebody who worked on the B&O during the late 1960's to learn what their practice was.

Sorry about the lack of detail on the sample list, I wasn't at home when I composed it and just needed something to show station order. I'm well aware of the need to "bury" hazmat cars, though I overlooked the restrictions on loaded pipe gons. This particular train is sometimes so short that it may not be possible for me to strategically position my pipe loads.
 
I have been watching your post Ken. Quite interesting and I really appreciate Joe's input.

As you may know, my layout was build as a switching layout. I have seen people use card systems for switching, but this old dog just wings it. For me an operating session would be to bring a train "on stage" from one of my hidden staging track to either of the two yards on either end of my point to point layout. After the train had been dropped in the yard, I'll make up a local freight train to drop off and pick up cars along the main line.

I purposely built a switching problem into each town just to make things interesting requiring a switcher to have to drop off or pick up cars both from the front or rear, requiring a run around track, which i also a passing siding. An operating session for me can last any wher from a hour to as long as three. When the local freight returns to one of the two yards, any outbound cars are spotted and made into an outbound train which heads "off stage" into one of the hidden staging tracks.

Maybe I should come up with some kind of a cars system, but winging it has worked for years.
 
Chet, I too operated "paperless" back in the day when I was still lone-wolfing, and could sometimes spend up to an hour completing one type of job. And there were a dozen different job scenarioes I could follow.

When I first started hosting guest operators I used car cards and waybills, but they got to be a PITA after a while - especially when one or more of them would get misplaced. I was really glad to learn about the JMRI Operations software [a.k.a. PanelPro] for creating manifests and switch lists, and that the road I model started using this type of documentation right before my era [1969-72]. So much easier than car cards IMHO.
 
When visiting my model railroad friends in Missouri, they do use waybill and cars during operating sessions. They also admit they can be a pain, but when there are a dozen or more operators, I guess they could be necessary. To me it looks like too much work, takes the fun out of operating.
 
CSX_road_slug said:
Guess I really need to talk to somebody who worked on the B&O during the late 1960's to learn what their practice was.
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That actually makes it much simpler. In the 1960's there were NO computer generated lists. All the lists were hand written on different forms (pretty much an industry standard form) and were completely different format than your lists. they were written by the crews or a yard clerk. Here are some examples:

http://coastdaylight.com/ljames1/switchlist1.gif

http://www.greenbayroute.com/1967switchlist.jpg

http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Paper/switchlist-.jpg
 
Maybe I should be glad the club layout doesn't currently favor train or switch lists, we used to run timetable sessions which just specified a starting point, time to leave, direction, time to arrive at the next station and so on, by fast clock. Usually descended into chaos with derailments etc etc and abandoned to just free running. Haven't had one in a long time.
 
Toot: It's all relative to what one wants to do. My "Lone Wolf" philosophy. Having spent a significant portion of my life, dealing with wheel reports, waybills, switching lists, cut lists, and classification manuals, I pretty much build my model railroad to represent my memories of actual operations, and I do everything out of my head. Railroading is repetitious. I can spend almost as much time making up and operating a model local freight as is consumed on the prototype. The big difference is there is less running time.

On a larger home layout, or club layout, designed to work with multiple operators, there is a need to have physical drill orders, switching lists and waybills of some form. Short of spacing requirements, I don't believe that it is necessary to replicate all the government mandated paper required for the car load of chlorine. I mean, how far do you want to carry this. Who has a miniature ICC or FRA inspector sneaking around their layout?

As Dave pointed out, different eras require different methods. The computer generated CT 1580s (Industrial Drill Slips), used in modern era operations, would not fit in with '60s era operations, using pre printed forms , with hand written or typed entry. Railroading was different before fax machines and copy machines were in common use.
 
Joe, I can definitely understand your outlook on model rr documentation - it's similar to me not wanting to build and troubleshoot my own computers, I did that in my early career and I had my fill of it! That's why I maintain a Geek Squad account, in case I run into problems with my home I/T infrastructure. But I digress...

Anyways, I'll just keep on using my JMRI-generated documents the way they are. Their purpose in my trainroom is to serve as easy-to-understand guides for visiting operators, definitely not to replicate the prototype paperwork of the era!:rolleyes:
 
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to do some operation involving switch lists, especially with the ease of DCC that allows more than 1 train to bypass another without all that block occupancy restriction. I have suggested the removal of some of the stations (in fact most of them) and replacing with industries, but some mountains take a little more earthmoving equipment (dynamite even) to make it happen.
 
I hear ya Toot, that's one of the reasons I never bothered building any modules to connect to my club's layout. I joined so I could have a ready supply of guest operators on my own pike. As long as I stay up-to-date on my dues, I don't think they'll kick me out - but of course that could change when the next group of officers is elected...?
 
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Anyways, I'll just keep on using my JMRI-generated documents the way they are. Their purpose in my trainroom is to serve as easy-to-understand guides for visiting operators, definitely not to replicate the prototype paperwork of the era!:rolleyes:
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Easy to understand is the way to go. As I'm fond of saying, model railroading is supposed to be fun, and not like work. :rolleyes:

Found a 1980s SCL Multipurpose form. Served as either a wheel report, switch list or track check as annotated on the form. Copy went to the data processing clerk. When I get a chance, I'll scan and upload.

BTW: now that JMRI interfaces with MRC's Prodigy Advanced², I'll ultimately download it. (Making progress on my track).
 
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