Membership in the NMRA verses the Number of Model Railroaders in the U.S.
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NP2626
Guest
I also asked Gerry the next logical question about the NMRA; If there are 17,500 members in the organization, who pay $47.00 per year for membership in the NMRA, what is the $822,500.00 cost to be members, paying for? The fact that there are only 4.5 people actually employed by the organization, should leave a goodly sum for operational costs.
In 2009 Gerry wrote an article entitled "Where does my dues money go? Gerry took a picture of a dollar bill broken into sections to show how the money is spent:
35 cents of every dollar went to administration costs, 34 cents went to publications, 8 cents went to Executive and Board of Director expenses, 9 cents went to the NMRA Library, 8 cents went to non-dues activitys, 4 cents went to Regional rebates and 4 cents went to other departments. Gerry said the above dollar break down may not be completely accurate, today.
In Gerry's own words, he went on to explain:
"Administration” is the amount of expenses for the administrative department, including shipping, printing, supplies, building rent and maintenance, equipment maintenance, equipment leases, computers, software, insurance, and, yes, the staff.
"Publications” is mostly the magazine. And this is where the finances get tricky, because some of the cost of producing the magazine is offset by subscription fees and advertising. But there’s payment to the editor, payment to the authors, payment to the printer, payment for mailing, etc. included in this. It also includes the books that the Kalmbach Library publishes and sells. As I understand it, we don’t make money on the books we sell to members, only the ones we sell to non-members, and then, it’s only a buck or two. (Incidentally the publisher of the NMRA Magazine is White River Publications, who also publish Model Railroad Craftsman and Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette, among other publications).
"Executive and BOD” is the money needed by the officers and Board – lodging for meetings, postage, copying, office supplies, legal fees. In my case, my huge budget of $500 is for buying stock art or photos for ads or brochures if we don’t have what I need on-hand.
"Library” is an expense that used to be paying our HQ librarian and keeping the climate control of the Library running. Today it’s paying for a half-time salary of a dedicated NMRA librarian at the California State Railroad Museum. We get atonof books, slides, photos, etc. donated to us by members or deceased members’ families, and all that stuff needs to be sorted and cataloged.
"Non-dues activities” are things that cost money to produce, like NMRA Standards Gauges, the calendar, convention clinic books, DVDs. We used to make “Heritage” freight cars (decaled for “famous” model railroads like the “Gorre and Daphetid”; we don’t do those any more).
Region rebates” – every Region receives a $2 rebate per NMRA member in its borders, to help them communicate with members. Some Regions pass this money down to their Divisions, some (like the TLR) use it to send out the newsletter (“The Fusee,” which you should have received) to all members in the Region, not just subscribers.
“Other Departments” is Education, Standards and Conformance, Member Services, Fundraising, etc. which all have costs associated with what they do. For example, the Standards and Conformance Department purchases off-the-shelf models for conformance reviews (rather than accepting a “perfect” model from the manufacturer), and also has test equipment that it needs to buy or update.
Additionally some money gets invested into various funds (e.g. the “Life Member fund”) so that they’re self-sustaining. Long story short: when the NMRA put a price on Life Membership back in the 60s through 90s, they did a horrible job of figuring out what the cost was. From what I understand they didn’t use accurate actuarial tables and way underpriced a Life Membership. Every Life member, by promise of the NMRA, gets the magazine. There was a fund set aside for that, that the NMRA of the 80s borrowed from to build the HQ building and never repaid. Horrible decision. So the money from the sale of the HQ building several years ago went to replenishing the Life Member Fund, which today, is again self-sustaining. There are other funds that the NMRA has, like emergency funds, funds for special programs, etc.
I think Gerry did a great job of answering questions about the NMRA. I find it hard to believe how easily miss-information about the NMRA can be disseminated and believed by the Model Railroading Public!
In 2009 Gerry wrote an article entitled "Where does my dues money go? Gerry took a picture of a dollar bill broken into sections to show how the money is spent:
35 cents of every dollar went to administration costs, 34 cents went to publications, 8 cents went to Executive and Board of Director expenses, 9 cents went to the NMRA Library, 8 cents went to non-dues activitys, 4 cents went to Regional rebates and 4 cents went to other departments. Gerry said the above dollar break down may not be completely accurate, today.
In Gerry's own words, he went on to explain:
"Administration” is the amount of expenses for the administrative department, including shipping, printing, supplies, building rent and maintenance, equipment maintenance, equipment leases, computers, software, insurance, and, yes, the staff.
"Publications” is mostly the magazine. And this is where the finances get tricky, because some of the cost of producing the magazine is offset by subscription fees and advertising. But there’s payment to the editor, payment to the authors, payment to the printer, payment for mailing, etc. included in this. It also includes the books that the Kalmbach Library publishes and sells. As I understand it, we don’t make money on the books we sell to members, only the ones we sell to non-members, and then, it’s only a buck or two. (Incidentally the publisher of the NMRA Magazine is White River Publications, who also publish Model Railroad Craftsman and Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette, among other publications).
"Executive and BOD” is the money needed by the officers and Board – lodging for meetings, postage, copying, office supplies, legal fees. In my case, my huge budget of $500 is for buying stock art or photos for ads or brochures if we don’t have what I need on-hand.
"Library” is an expense that used to be paying our HQ librarian and keeping the climate control of the Library running. Today it’s paying for a half-time salary of a dedicated NMRA librarian at the California State Railroad Museum. We get atonof books, slides, photos, etc. donated to us by members or deceased members’ families, and all that stuff needs to be sorted and cataloged.
"Non-dues activities” are things that cost money to produce, like NMRA Standards Gauges, the calendar, convention clinic books, DVDs. We used to make “Heritage” freight cars (decaled for “famous” model railroads like the “Gorre and Daphetid”; we don’t do those any more).
Region rebates” – every Region receives a $2 rebate per NMRA member in its borders, to help them communicate with members. Some Regions pass this money down to their Divisions, some (like the TLR) use it to send out the newsletter (“The Fusee,” which you should have received) to all members in the Region, not just subscribers.
“Other Departments” is Education, Standards and Conformance, Member Services, Fundraising, etc. which all have costs associated with what they do. For example, the Standards and Conformance Department purchases off-the-shelf models for conformance reviews (rather than accepting a “perfect” model from the manufacturer), and also has test equipment that it needs to buy or update.
Additionally some money gets invested into various funds (e.g. the “Life Member fund”) so that they’re self-sustaining. Long story short: when the NMRA put a price on Life Membership back in the 60s through 90s, they did a horrible job of figuring out what the cost was. From what I understand they didn’t use accurate actuarial tables and way underpriced a Life Membership. Every Life member, by promise of the NMRA, gets the magazine. There was a fund set aside for that, that the NMRA of the 80s borrowed from to build the HQ building and never repaid. Horrible decision. So the money from the sale of the HQ building several years ago went to replenishing the Life Member Fund, which today, is again self-sustaining. There are other funds that the NMRA has, like emergency funds, funds for special programs, etc.
I think Gerry did a great job of answering questions about the NMRA. I find it hard to believe how easily miss-information about the NMRA can be disseminated and believed by the Model Railroading Public!
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NP2626
Guest
So, I may be construed as being Pro-NMRA, now. Actually, I feel pretty neutral about the organization, excepting my feelings of wanting to support it because of its' support of the hobby which I love. This discussion with Gerry Leone I have found to be informative and has opened my mind about aspects of the NMRA I was unaware of. One, is I was stating that the dues are $75.00, which is incorrect. The dues for membership are $47.00 per year and if desired, it costs another $28.00 per years for the NMRA Publication which is a choice to be a subscriber; or, not. I just thought it to be important to get the facts out there for us all to see. For this, I want to Thank Gerry Leone very much! It sounded as though he has been involved in the dissemination of the facts for quite a while!
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NP2626
Guest
My problems with the NMRA are not with the international organization! It is with my local division. They are having a meeting tomorrow night and I have just been told of this this morning. 36 hour notification is not enough and there is no way I can fit a trip to Fargo/Moorhead on such short notice. The meeting is 90 or so miles away and starts at 7:00 in the evening, which would mean a long drive home after the meeting or staying in a hotel after!
new guy
Active Member
I attended the local meeting and was treated to an EXELLENT demonstration/talk about servo's and their uses on a layout! VERY informative but I was not moved to join. I do know of one actual member who has dropped out basically and still does MRR but does not attend meetings of the NMRA. They looked like they barely had the minimum to have a chapter function. Too bad.
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NP2626
Guest
New Guy, what is MRR?
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goscrewyourselves
I'm the one
Model Railroad Magazine.
Panhandle Hogger
New Member
I gave some thought to the original question that started this thread. I think that we need to boil down that 175,000 number. I really don't think there are 175k potential NMRA members out there. Too many people in this population might be Toy Train collectors, 'round the Christmas tree only, or other groups who would have little or no interest in the NMRA.
I think a better number to use as the total potential population is the magazine subscriptions. These are people who are relatively serious about their model train hobby, and better represent the population of potential NMRA members. Since people often subscribe to multiple magazines, let's use the high water mark which is 80,000 for Model Railroader. That means about 1 in 5 model trains enthusiasts belong to the NMRA (about 21%). That seems to fit my experience better that the original 175,000.
Hope this helps further the discussion.
Bill
I think a better number to use as the total potential population is the magazine subscriptions. These are people who are relatively serious about their model train hobby, and better represent the population of potential NMRA members. Since people often subscribe to multiple magazines, let's use the high water mark which is 80,000 for Model Railroader. That means about 1 in 5 model trains enthusiasts belong to the NMRA (about 21%). That seems to fit my experience better that the original 175,000.
Hope this helps further the discussion.
Bill
I have no idea where that number comes from, but I suspect it's low. Model Railroader magazine has a circulation of roughly 100K for 2017. Granted, it is shrinking from previous highs of over 200K twenty years ago, but that's still a big number.
Of course the question is "how do you define a model railroader?" Everyone who's ever bought an HO train? That would be in the millions I'm guessing. Only folks serious enough to buy magazines about the hobby? Well, if so, then maybe 175K is a reasonable number when you consider the other magazines that Big K and other publisher have out there. I'm sure there's some overlap, but for example G scale and Lionel collectors may not get MR. It's really hard to pin down these sorts of numbers.
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NP2626
Guest
Actually, I don't see how it helps at all. Both your number and the 175,000 number are simply guesstimates! With either number, membership in the NMRA appears to be bleak, more bleaker with 175,000 than 80,000 for sure! However still a small percentage compared to the whole! When I asked the question at the NMRA's forum I asked the following:
Percentage of Model Railroaders in the United States as opposed to membership in the NMRA
#1). Is there a census on how many Model Railroaders there are in the United Sates, in all scales and gauges?
#2). What is the number of Model Railroaders who are members of the NMRA?[/FONT]
So specifically, I asked about Model Railroaders and not Toy Train Enthusiasts. There should be no expectations that anything other than Model Railroaders would be included!
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NP2626
Guest
So, by asking Gerry Leone for informational help with this thread, he wondered if I would consider volunteering to do some work for the NMRA. I said yes, and am in the process of attempting to find out all the names and email addresses of all the Divisional Superintendents and the names and emails of all Divisional Membership Chairpeople. There are all together 18 different regions, with there being the Australasian Region, British Region and the European Region which are not located in the U.S.A. and Canada. Each Region has between 4 and 24 Divisions! All told there are 158 Divisions. This will be a somewhat difficult task because some Regional and Divisional websites may not receive updating when they need it. My own Region, The Thousand Lakes Region, does not show the current Regional President at the NMRA website, let alone the 7 Division Superintendents and Membership chairpersons. I have been told by some Regional Presidents that their Regions have never had Membership Chairs!
It's all a bit of detective work and I enjoy doing this type of work. It's also making me feel more a part of the NMRA!
It's all a bit of detective work and I enjoy doing this type of work. It's also making me feel more a part of the NMRA!
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Panhandle Hogger
New Member
Given the degree to which you want validation of the "best guesses" people have supplied in good faith, I guess the answer to your question is "NO". There is no consensus or "census" on how many Model Railroaders there are in the United Sates, in all scales and gauges.
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NP2626
Guest
Panhandle Hogger, I don't think the number of model railroaders can be validated. However the membership number of the NMRA is a known fact.
Why is your estimate of 100,000 Model Railroaders a more realistic number than the 175,000 given by Mike Brestel? I guess I look at both estimates, as only estimates and feel one is as realistic/unrealistic, as the other.
Why is your estimate of 100,000 Model Railroaders a more realistic number than the 175,000 given by Mike Brestel? I guess I look at both estimates, as only estimates and feel one is as realistic/unrealistic, as the other.
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NP2626
Guest
The intent of this thread was to see if I could come up with a determination of how many model railroaders are not members of the NMRA. The reason they are not members is for the NMRA to determine. The difference between your 80,000 model railroaders and Mike Brestel's 175,000 model railroaders as estimates seem unimportant to me, when you consider that the population of the United States is around 300 million!.
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NP2626
Guest
I found a whole dearth of information about almost every division within the 18 Regions of the NMRA. For one, there are 176 Divisions within the NMRA. Some Divisions allow access to their news letters and there is wonderful photos and all kinds of information available to the public. Here is a link to the Los Angeles Division's newsletter, "The Coupler" <http://www.ladiv-mra.org/springrail_page_html_files/sml_Winter_2017_Coupler_03.pdf> This is a typical news letter from a larger well established Division. I would estimate that non-members of the NMRA can access maybe around 75 newsletters from Divisions in the NMRA, maybe more. So, in addition to the Standards and Recommended Practices, here is far more information available. I learned all this by doing the work that Gerry Leone asked me to do. I can understand why people who live in areas that have active Divisions have a far different opinion on the NMRA, than those of us who live in areas with less active divisions.
It really is worthwhile to do some digging at the NMRA website to find out what is available!
It really is worthwhile to do some digging at the NMRA website to find out what is available!
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goscrewyourselves
I'm the one
I think it is fair to say that no one can state how many people in the US are model railway enthusiasts (active participants). Therefore, it seems logical that no one can state how many people are not members of the nmra.
Even if the guess of 175,000 is correct, or any where near a close figure, and if the 17,000 or so stated membership of the nmra is accurate, then I think it is also fair to say that there are significantly more enthusiasts who are not members than there are members.
As you said, why that is is a problem for the nmra just as it is for AMRA (Australian Model Railway Association) with its membership problems.
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NP2626
Guest
Can't disagree with you, Tony! In the end all that can be taken away from the numbers is that compared to the whole, the membership in the NMRA is fairly paltry.
Tony, Did you know: because of the work I did for Gerry Leone on the Divisions in the NMRA, I discovered that there are 10 Divisions of the NMRA in Australia. This likely has an effect on membership in the AMRA!
