Membership in the NMRA verses the Number of Model Railroaders in the U.S.

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#81
Concerning the "Partnership Program", at least, they are trying. Nothing wrong with that. The hobby attracts all kinds of people, and some are not joiners, others join but remain inactive, Others live in less populated regions. If someone is happy with the organization, they will generally not be critical, while the disgruntled member, will express himself. This creates an impression that the organization is worse than it really is. I'm reluctant to say any more, because it's been a few years since I dropped out. I'm willing to try again at some point.
 

wombat457

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#82
The title of this thread is (abbreviated) model railroaders V's nmra members ... from all accounts, nmra membership numbers are insignificant compared to the number of over all model railroaders, whatever that may be.

Fact of the matter is no one will ever really know how many people are in the hobby, either in the US or world wide, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that it's a hell of a lot more than 175,000.
 

NP2626

Active Member
#83
I do feel the NMRA Partnership Program is a step in the right direction. As I've stated before; if membership fees where around $35.00 to $45.00 dollars, I would consider staying a member as I want to support this hobby and the NMRA is certainly involved in supporting it by the Standards and R.Ps. With the Partnership Program, I can work towards reducing my fees with this program.
 
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#84
Mark,

Well, that being said, all you need to do is find $67-100 worth of things you would have purchased online anyway, depending on which vendor. Most discounts are in the range of 10-15%. I made a purchase yesterday at MicroMark that paid for my membership with magazine and then some. Its pretty easy to do with a big ticket item, if you are in the market for such things. The trick is "something you would have bought anyway". I found one thing, plus an item my wife wanted that was on MRVP. Only $32 left until my wife's full membership (no, we didn't do family) is paid for.
 
#86
The title of this thread is (abbreviated) model railroaders V's nmra members ... from all accounts, nmra membership numbers are insignificant compared to the number of over all model railroaders, whatever that may be.

Fact of the matter is no one will ever really know how many people are in the hobby, either in the US or world wide, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that it's a hell of a lot more than 175,000.
I think the issue here is, who are those 175,000, and are they really potential NMRA members?

I will bet many are what we might consider Toy Train Collectors, and not considered "scale model railroaders". They just pursue a different aspect of this diverse hobby. The NMRA is specifically aimed at the guys who do scale model railroading, where as this 175k count may include many who would never consider the NMRA as their hobby organization. I think the Toy Train guys have several associations that fit their needs better than the NMRA.

That 175,000 population may also include the Lego guys. The NMRA is not designed to fit their specific needs, so I would not expect them to join.

Now before this post gets misinterpreted, I am not demeaning either the Toy Train hobby or the Lego builders. Both are great hobbies. It is just that the NMRA is not designed or focused on their nice in the hobby market. Somebody told me the Wall Street Journal said the American hobby industry is a multi-billion dollar industry, and that model trains make up slightly over half. Does anyone have the real figures? I might be misquoting.
 
#87
Here are some industry figures:
Model Railroad Hobbyist:
90,815 total unique audience circulation (YOY: +0.2%)
33,276 subscribers (YOY: +0.2%)


Model Railroader:
101,379 total paid circulation (YOY: -11.7%)
81,645 total paid subscriptions (YOY: -8.5%)


Railroad Model Craftsman:
23,633 total paid circulation (YOY: -7.6%)
9,209 total paid subscriptions (YOY: -16.7%)
Curtesy of Model Railroad Hobbyist. These are probably better numbers to use than Mike B's 175,000. No offense Mike!

Bill

 
#88
Here are some industry figures:
Model Railroad Hobbyist:
90,815 total unique audience circulation (YOY: +0.2%)
33,276 subscribers (YOY: +0.2%)


Model Railroader:
101,379 total paid circulation (YOY: -11.7%)
81,645 total paid subscriptions (YOY: -8.5%)


Railroad Model Craftsman:
23,633 total paid circulation (YOY: -7.6%)
9,209 total paid subscriptions (YOY: -16.7%)
Curtesy of Model Railroad Hobbyist. These are probably better numbers to use than Mike B's 175,000. No offense Mike!

Bill

I can’t argue with those numbers, they are actual data, vice an estimate. I subscribe to all three, and I am a NMRA member. There are people who likely do not subscribe to any of the above. The affore mentioned Lionel Collectors Club of America Members and the Train Collectors Association. They are model railroaders as well, and it’s a good bet that you could add their membership to those who are not subscribing above. Then there are digital model railroaders Trainz, Train Simulator etc. They are model railroaders, on a grander scale than any of scale modeler can hope to achieve. A good number of them probably would not subscribe to any of the hobby magazines.
 

NP2626

Active Member
#89
Maybe these figures are very realistic, who knows. However, what confuses the total is the fact that many model railroaders could likely to be subscribers to two; or, to all three magazines. Then you have the possibility that there are Model Railroaders who don't subscribe to any of these three publications! I would tend to doubt the validity of any number drawn from the figures below, just as much as I doubt the figure of 175,000 as a total. In the end, I think the only logical conclusion you can come to is that the number of members in the NMRA compared to the total number of model railroads, is a significantly smaller portion of the total. Beyond this, do the numbers even matter?

Here are some industry figures:
Model Railroad Hobbyist:
90,815 total unique audience circulation (YOY: +0.2%)
33,276 subscribers (YOY: +0.2%)


Model Railroader:
101,379 total paid circulation (YOY: -11.7%)
81,645 total paid subscriptions (YOY: -8.5%)


Railroad Model Craftsman:
23,633 total paid circulation (YOY: -7.6%)
9,209 total paid subscriptions (YOY: -16.7%)
Curtesy of Model Railroad Hobbyist. These are probably better numbers to use than Mike B's 175,000. No offense Mike!

Bill

 
#90
Here are some industry figures:
Model Railroad Hobbyist:
90,815 total unique audience circulation (YOY: +0.2%)
33,276 subscribers (YOY: +0.2%)


Model Railroader:
101,379 total paid circulation (YOY: -11.7%)
81,645 total paid subscriptions (YOY: -8.5%)


Railroad Model Craftsman:
23,633 total paid circulation (YOY: -7.6%)
9,209 total paid subscriptions (YOY: -16.7%)
Curtesy of Model Railroad Hobbyist. These are probably better numbers to use than Mike B's 175,000. No offense Mike!

Bill

These figures are specific subscription figures for different publications, similar to NMRA membership numbers. Currently, I subscribe to all three model magazines, but do not currently belong to NMRA, TCA or LCCofA, or any other group. Some modelers cross over and some don't. Some don't belong to any and don't read magazines either. The WSJ article was probably developed from the Hobby Manufacturers Trade Association, which would track sales data. These are all definitive measures, but they don't capture the depth of the hobby.

I consider myself an experienced Scale Model Railroader, but Not a prototype modeler, because I subscribe to the close is good enough philosophy. I do not participate in any of the Prototype Model Meets held around the country. I do read the Prototype Modeler magazines produced by the Railroad Historical Societies I belong to, but that's as far as it goes. The point of this is that it's difficult to categorize what segment of the hobby I belong to, and it's even more difficult to determine the depth of the hobby based on these numbers.

Mike's 175,000 estimate, can be taken as an act of faith, and not much more. It's safer to state that the number is unknown, but that doesn't always fly in Peoria.
I don't think we will ever be able to identify exact numbers for the hobby. It's hard to even define what the hobby is.

Boris
 

NP2626

Active Member
#91
WJLI26, You have used acronyms along with Panhandle Hogger, can I ask you to clarify them? Specifically, what does YOY stand for? Also, TCA, LCCofA and you reference "The WSJ article?

I find the overlap in the numbers in Panhandle Hogger's statistics to render the numbers just as useless as the 175,000 in Mike Brestals estimate; or, how many subscribers to Model Railroader also subscribe to Model Railroad Craftsman or Model Railroad Hobbyist? In the end, as the starter of this thread, I don't think I was actually after hard numbers as for this thread, estimates will have to work. If hard numbers were available, that would be great; however, it was known from the get go that we'd be dealing with estimates.
 
#92
Mark:
Sorry:

TCA = Train Collectors Association
LCCof A = Lionel Collectors Club of America
WSJ = Wall Street Journal

I don't think I was actually after hard numbers as for this thread, estimates will have to work. If hard numbers were available, that would be great; however, it was known from the get go that we'd be dealing with estimates.
Honestly, Mark, I don't know that we will ever have hard numbers. Everything is a guess. So of course we knew we were going by estimates. Pretty much everything is an estimate, based on random samples.

Boris
 

NP2626

Active Member
#93
Boris, Thanks for the clarification!

Although rounded to the nearest 500; or so, I would say the 17,500 members of the NMRA is an estimate, also! However, I think we can take this estimate as being fairly accurate, compared to the 175,000 figure. I wouldn't think that we would ever have "Hard" numbers for this discussion. However, I think the estimates are good enough for what this thread is all about.

On another tack: Since the NMRA has (I believe) started the NMRA Partnership Program; or, at least, since I started using it. I have clipped $13.33 off of my membership fees by buying from one of the Partner Companies. The items purchased were items that, with the discount, were cheaper than I could get them at M.B. Klein ModelTrainStuff, so I am both happy with the price I paid and the fact that I am parring down the cost of membership in the NMRA!

Since I would like to support the NMRA for what it has helped the Model Railroading hobby with, since it's inception, I think this is a great program to help me do so.
 
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#94
One of my favorite questions to see how closely the person is listening, "What are two and two?", because no math was implied the answer could be "They are numbers".
I just jumped into this thread and read through the various and interesting comments on why folks do and do not join the NMRA and what they do and do not get out of it. The jokes were also good! I too saw the recent eBulletin where the NMRA laid out its member growth plan, a statement which struck me as, well, quite odd to say the least: "Membership Retention is the best and most economical way to grow our numbers."

That sparked my curiosity and that of a colleague, so we decided to write to the NMRA to ask if there would be some elaboration in a future issue of the magazine on this plan and how it might work from a numbers perspective. The reply we received is as follows (with names deleted):

"Hi ____________,

Thanks for your note. No – I am not going to devote a column on this topic but let me explain the math and our reasoning. We recruit members very successfully each year. But each year we lose more members than we recruit and that loss results in a net loss. Some of those losses are due to death but much of the loss is due to first-time members not being contacted or made to feel welcome. Thus, were we able to continue recruiting on an annual basis as we have historically but retain 50% of our new members, we would grow. It is far easier to keep an existing member then to attract a new one. But it does require work at the local level and that is always been our Achilles heel.

We are therefore encouraging local folks you come up with innovative programs with this new idea. But the most effective program is mentoring. Identifying new members and making them feel welcome. Easier said than done.

I hope this answers your question and I hope this dispels any skepticism that retaining members somehow grows our numbers. By itself, of course not. But added to our annual successful recruiting efforts, it certainly would.

Thanks for your question"

Maybe this is why the ratio of NMRA members to the estimated number of its potential market is so low. Economical? Certainly is!
 
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#95
Since the organization, especially at Region/Division level is volunteer, it's difficult for the elected officers to be mentors, and monitors, and recruiters, when they have families and jobs and other life events in addition to their hobbies, and their offices.
I have to give credit to the New Jersey Division, which has maintained contact with me by e-newsletters since I dropped out several years ago. Not for nothing, but these fellows have some nice programs going. The only one to blame here is me, for not participating.

Biggest problem is we all have our lives and needs that have to be met first, then comes the rest. NMRA comes under the rest.

Boris
 

NP2626

Active Member
#96
I have no idea what the compensation for officers in the NMRA is. It should be information readily available to the membership, I will see if I can find out.
 

NP2626

Active Member
#97
I asked Gerry Leone The Vice President of Projects for the NMRA about compensation for the officers of the organization. He said that other than 4.5 staff at NMRA HQ, nobody else is paid.
 
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NP2626

Active Member
#98
Here is what Gerry Leone the NMRA VP of Projects had to say about officer compensation in the NMRA:

Hi, Mark –

First off, thanks a million for your kind words and for watching “Off the Rails.” It’s a fun thing to produce, and I hope it comes off that way.

That, obviously, has nothing to do with the NMRA, so let me address some of that stuff in no particular order.

Before I get into specifics, let me give you a bit of background. I re-joined the NMRA in 2000 and since 2005 served as assistant chair of the Membership department, then Communications Director, then VP. When I joined I had absolutely zero interest in any of the social aspects of the NMRA – meetings, conventions, being an officer, etc. But I volunteered to be the Twin Cities’ newsletter editor simply to fulfill my duties as “Volunteer” for the Achievement Program. At that point I met a bunch of guys who introduced me to a bunch of guys, and I suddenly found that some of my best friends today were because of the NMRA.

Most of all, as corny as this sounds, I found I enjoyed this hobby even more by helping it. That’s why I do “Off the Rails.” That’s why I work with the NMRA. I get something out of giving. That’s me, and not everyone. But that’s why some guys go out and put on train shows or do model railroading lectures at libraries. McCartney said it best: In the end the love you take is equal to the love you make. Corny? Hell yes. But I enjoy this hobby 100% more by giving back to it.

The arguments and gripes that are being voiced in the Model Railroad Forums are arguments and gripes I’ve heard for my 13 years working with NMRA National. There are those who will always dislike the NMRA for one reason or another, or won’t see the value in membership. Having been through literally dozens of these online discussions, I’ve found that it becomes somewhat of a fruitless expense of time, because most will never be convinced that the NMRA Is worth much, regardless of how many words or how much time I spend.

So, bottom line, feel free to post these comments to the group or summarize them, but I just don’t have the time to spend arguing with each and every naysayer. As it is, I spend about 10 hours per week on NMRA stuff (answering emails, preparing the eBulletin and Turntable, updating web pages, doing brochures…and, yes, addressing comments like this).

Plus, it’s not much fun to walk into a group of 15 guys who are ready to throw stones and only want to believe what they want to believe; I can only lob just so many back before my arm gets tired. J So many of the claims the naysayers make (including ones on the Model Railroad Forums) are based on hearsay and urban legend – nobody bothers to look for the truth because making assumptions is so much easier. “Someone told me…” “I heard that…”

That said, I’ve read a lot of the comments (there goes more time!) and I’ll address some specifics that they’ve brought up.

I’ll start with compensation. Here’s how much officers of the NMRA are compensated: $0. Here’s how much Board members are compensated: $0. Here’s how much Department heads are compensated: $0.

The NMRA has 4.5 paid employees (one is half-time), all of whom work at the Headquarters office in Tennessee, all of whom are clerical workers. Doing what? One example: in the past 6 months Headquarters processed 10,406 memberships or membership renewals That averages out to 90 per workday. If each one takes 5 minutes (opening email/letters, processing credit cards or checks, entering information into the database, printing a new or updated membership card, addressing the envelope and stamping it) that comes to 7.5 hours. That’s one whole clerical worker’s day…5 days a week. And I can assure you, many of those memberships take more than 5 minutes to process.

The others spend their time answering phone calls (“My magazine was ripped when I got it” “I didn’t get my membership card!”), sending out Company Store merchandise, preparing boxes of train show-type materials requested by Divisions, soliciting and talking with National Train Show vendors, keeping the books, etc.

Everyone else in the NMRA – EVERYONE – is a volunteer and receives nothing for spending their time. Yes, the NMRA pays for airfare to send the Board and Officers to the Board meetings twice a year, but that was decided before my time as a way to prevent only “rich” people from running for office – those who could afford to get to the Board meetings by paying for it themselves. The hotel we stay in is a low-budget affair that I’d never stay in given my own choice (one year we had cockroaches in some of the rooms). We’ve met in Atlanta for the past 3 years because 6 Board/Officers/Dept. heads live near there and could drive on their own dime.

Any officer or Board member who goes to Germany to attend a toy show does it on his own money for the good of the organization. The NMRA pays for none of that. We can’t afford to. (See how easy it is to make an assumption?)

The financials are posted on the NMRA website, so see for yourself.

Why have face-to-face meetings? The State of Ohio, where the NMRA is incorporated, until recently demanded that any Board decision must be made in person. Teleconferencing and email don’t count. That law has changed and we’re now experimenting with teleconferencing and are finding it’s extremely difficult to do with 20 people (9 Board members and 5 Officers, plus Department heads) online at once. Much gets done with one-to-one meetings in hallways or during breaks. But we’re working on it and haven’t given up on the idea.

Why didn’t we re-incorporate in another state whose laws were more lax about that? Money. It would have cost a great deal to hire a corporate lawyer to work out the details and submit the paperwork.

And there’s the answer to only one question, and look at how much space (and time) it’s taken up.

The fact that you were never contacted by your “nearby” Division is indeed a problem, and it’s a problem throughout the country. The NMRA has 158 Divisions. Some of them have 400+ members; some of them have 8. Some of them are extremely active, having bi-monthly train shows and book sales, prototype trips and monthly events. Some of them get together twice a year and work on one guy’s layout for a few hours.

Yes, most Division websites are indeed dismal. That’s because they don’t have anyone who’ll volunteer to do it, or who has the expertise to do it.

(Because Gerry's note was so long, I had to cut it in half and post the end in the next post).
 
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NP2626

Active Member
#99
Gerry's note, continued:

The NMRA isn’t a “franchise” operation like McDonald’s. We can’t issue demands from on-high and say, “All Divisions must do this and must do that.” It doesn’t work that way because, over the course of the last 80 years, Divisions have gotten used to being independent and doing things their own way. They don’t take orders from anyone. (There are a few exceptions, like staying within the legal limits of the NMRA’s insurance provider’s guidelines, but that’s a different story.) Plus, what works for Division 5 in Cincinnati wouldn’t work for the Red River Division.

Some Divisions are large enough to have a “membership chairperson” who sends out letters and postcards and makes phone calls to new members or existing members, reminding them about upcoming meets or reminding them to renew. On the other hand, some Divisions can’t even find someone willing to be President, so the person who has the title does so begrudgingly and pawns it off on the next guy when his term is up.

Remember: we’re all volunteers, including the Division people. Yes, the Division is where the rubber meets the road, but some Divisions just aren’t motivated enough, or don’t have the time or desire. Thus, the NMRA is at the mercy of those folks. And when they don’t put themselves out, “the NMRA” in general gets the bad rap – as evidenced by your initial post on the Forum.

Every Region gets a set of reports every month, showing new members, lapsed members, deceased members, etc. Some Regions don’t bother to pass that stuff on to the Divisions. Shame on them. Some Divisions do get the reports and don’t do anything with it. Shame on them. And we can’t send 158 individual reports out every month. So how can we at National NMRA force those guys to make phone calls or send letters? We can’t.

So that’s another long answer to a short question.

As for the population of model railroaders versus the NMRA, your guess was as good as any. Yes, the NMRA is international, but the non-North American members only account for probably 500 of the 18,000. And…who’s a “model railroader”? A guy who has a few trains in his basement and hasn’t run them or built anything for 2 years? I’d bet there are far more than 175,000 people who consider themselves “model railroaders” who haven’t touched their trains for a decade or more. So looking at the percentage of “model railroaders” who are NMRA members is pointless. I can guarantee you, though, that the majority of NMRA members are active model railroaders.

Yes, our website is lousy. I’m in the process of spearheading a program to re-organize the thing (more of my volunteer time!). There are over 1,000 pages to the website and, honestly, I can’t find some stuff on it myself. But, again: it was put together and is run by volunteers. We don’t have the money to spend having it professionally designed. So which is better: to have the crappy website we have now, or have no website at all? Right now that’s the choice we have to face.

Let’s talk about volunteers one second. People have the impression that there are hundreds of people at Headquarters who are in charge of projects or waiting to be in charge of projects. We have 4.5 people at Headquarters, none of whom have the time for extra projects beyond their clerical work. So when someone comes up to me and says, “You know what you guys should do is…” my answer is always, “Will you do it for us? We don’t have anyone else who will.” Example: someone suggested that we archive issues of the eBulletin and Turntable on our website. Great, but that would take yet another hour of my time every month. So we searched for someone. It took 2 months to find a guy willing to do that. And that’s a simple job…not something as huge as redesigning a website or creating a brochure or putting together a video. Summary: we had a hard time finding someone who’d volunteer 1 hour per month.

You’re a member, Mark. Have you volunteered to do anything for the NMRA? I’m not being snarky or facetious – my point is, there are 17,800 members like you, and maybe 200 others who’ve volunteered a bit of their time. The entire organization is volunteer-based. So when someone suggests, “You know what you guys should do…” I don’t have an army of people I can turn to and say, “Get on it!” I have to go find someone willing to spend some of their free time – modeling time – to help. And even then, the job that gets done may not be the greatest job in the world, quality-wise.

What does someone get for their NMRA dues who, like you, doesn’t participate in local events? Yes, your dues supports the NMRA’s standards…blah blah blah. That’s fine, but in 2018, people are extremely focused on “what’s in it for me?” So that’s why we came up with the Partnership Program. As you found out, you can lop a significant amount of money off your dues dollars with the discounts. (Bear in mind: putting that program together and going out and soliciting manufacturers to be part of it took about 10 volunteers many, many hours; we only have 2 volunteers doing it now because the others realized there was real work involved.)

Ok, specific benefits of membership:

Have you looked at the clinic videos on our website? If you can’t afford to go to a National convention or don’t want to, we now have over 100 “national convention clinics” on streaming video on our website. These are clinics given by top-notch modelers at NMRA national conventions from 2002 to 2017. That, to me, is a huge member benefit. Want to see Dave Frary talking about scenery techniques? We’ve got a clinic video on that. The list goes on and on. (More volunteer work: I spent my entire convention week last year, along with two other guys, hauling around cameras and equipment to shoot videos of over 30 clinics,. I then spent a month editing them at home. Compensation for the NMRA Vice President / Special Projects: $0.)

What we haven’t promoted yet (it takes someone to write the article!) is the fact that every member of the NMRA is now a member of the California State Railroad Museum’s library – one of the largest railroad libraries in the world. So if you’re interested in prototype research or are looking for an instruction sheet for a 1972 AHM structure, or anything in between, the library is the place to turn to. That’s a great member benefit.

The NMRA calendar arrives in the mail every year to all North American members. It’s free (although it helps if you donate). Member benefit. Kalmbach charges upwards of $20 for theirs. If ours cost the same, that’s half of your membership dollars right there. Add that to the $13 you saved in the Partnership program, and you’re paying roughly $15/year for NMRA membership (not including the magazine).

The Achievement Program is another, and I won’t even go into detail about that. I spent 3 years getting my MMR and they were three of the best years I’ve had in modeling. Have you ever scratchbuilt a freight car? I hadn’t, and had no intention of doing so, but I needed to do just that – four times – to complete one of the requirements. I can’t tell you how much I learned from that one experience. The Achievement Program pushed me out of my little box (“Aw, hell, I don’t care how to do that…”) and forced me to go places I would have never gone. And it felt great. Now I’m anxious to scratchbuild more cars – something I never wanted to do. When you go to college, you’re forced to take courses you never would choose otherwise. And even tho you may hate those classes, you learn something from them and become a more well-rounded person because of that learning. That’s the Achievement Program. I would never be the modeler I am today had I not invested that time. It made the hobby much more enjoyable for me overall. I don’t feel “superior” to anyone just because I have an MMR. I did it for me, and me alone. And just because I did “this” and “that” and “this” doesn’t make me “better” than anyone else.

There are other benefits like the online photo archives, the model railroad directory, data sheets, etc.

People say, “What benefits do I get out of the NMRA?” but nobody bothers to go looking for them because, as I said, it’s easier just to make assumptions. Do we have money to advertise this stuff in commercial magazines? I don’t have the rate sheet here in front of me, but a 1/4-page ad in Model Railroader, run one time, costs upwards of several hundred dollars. Do we have the money for that? (Do I need to answer that?)

Last point: you mention the email you got from Charlie Getz about retention and growing the NMRA. Here’s what he said, but he took too long to say it: We lose about 200 members per month (death, illness, disinterest, disenchantment). We gain about 200 members per month (new members, returning members). So our membership number is stable from month to month. If we could stop 50% of the people who leave from leaving, we’d “gain” a net of 100 members per month, and the NMRA would then be “growing.” So retention is the key. And that’s why we’re doing things like the video clinics and the Partnership Program – to keep the members we have. But as I’ve said a million times in this email, it takes people to do this stuff, and takes time to do this stuff.

I’ve only gotten through Page 4 of the 9 pages of comments and it’s taken me most of a Sunday morning to address some of the assumptions and accusations. This is why jumping online to answer every accusation individually is a huge investment of time that I just don’t have. I’ve got half of a Sunday left, and I’m going to go enjoy it!

Thanks for your membership, and thanks for taking the time to alert me to the discussion.

-Gerry Leone
NMRA Vice President / Special Projects
 

tootnkumin

Well-Known Member
Staff member
The NMRA isn’t a “franchise” operation like McDonald’s. We can’t issue demands from on-high and say, “All Divisions must do this and must do that.” It doesn’t work that way because, over the course of the last 80 years, Divisions have gotten used to being independent and doing things their own way. They don’t take orders from anyone.
Gee, I'll have to send that off to somewhere local.
 



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