Logging Locos, Logging Track Plan, Logging Mill, Mainline Pick-up

[beiland]

I need HELP!

Quite awhile back I set aside some spaces on my new double-deck layout plan to have some logging scenes.

I labeled them Logging Tracks & Logging Interchange


Even though both of these 'scenes' are interconnected, they both require individual design attention:

a) to the logging trains that gather up the downed trees and deliver them to the lumber mill,
b) the mill itself,
c) and finally placement of finished product on mainline cars for retail distribution.

On this upper level I am proposing to put some logging tracks and trains running out the peninsula to its tip. There might be a very tight loop at the free end of the peninsula for the short logging locos to run. Or it might be just a back and forth operation for them. They will bring logs back to the saw mill scene at the trunk end of the peninsula (logging interchange). I have the whole Walthers saw mill kit(s) and would like to make this scene some sort of transfer of logs to cut/finished product that would be loaded onto mainline log cars and center-beam loaded cars, and a number of other wood carrying cars



At that point I let myself get stalled out thinking of details about this logging scene, and I went onto more pressing matters to getting some lower plywood decks cut out, and tracks laid in my helix, etc, etc. Now I am at a point where I want to finish up cutting out the deck plates for the upper level,...BUT I need to define what I intend to do about this whole logging area. I need some ideas, hopefully from folks interested in logging subjects.

 

[beiland]

Spine/ Backbone


For the last couple of days I've been trying to come up with some basic ideas of placement of the mill components, a track plan, etc. I've looked thru lots of images via google, and some of my old magazine clippings. Nothing has 'hit me on the head' as the way to proceed.



I had previously started a subject thread asking about the minimum radius curves that these locos might be capable of?
Logging Locos & Minimum Radius Curves
https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/34504



It quickly became obvious that I was NOT going to be able to put a turning loop at the tip of this upper peninsula, as the peninsula itself was only going to be a maximum 24” wide,...more likely 18” wide?



And perhaps I was NOT going to be able to put a turning loop down where the logging trains brought the trees to the mill (pond of the mill preferable)?


A few days ago I was visiting my metal scrap yard and noticed a new piece of that 'sign post' metal beam I've utilized on other portions of my 'metal benchwork'. My thoughts turned back to this logging train trackage I had been contemplating down an elevated strip over my central peninsula.

Could this beam be the backbone rib of that logging trackage? In other words it would exist strictly as a stiff backbone of approx 8 foot of length. Various pieces of 1-2" thick foam attached to this backbone would provide for the scenery and roadbed all along this length. The backbone might well be attached to the ceiling beams of the shed via 2 long, all-thread rods, so no support structure required from the bottom. And these rods can be placed such that the ceiling fan is still usable, ….but the 3 lights that are part of the fixture would likely be removed.

Last night I grabbed a long piece of alum I had sitting around, and 'strung' it up to represent that backbone I mentioned above,....(I even gave it a little grade to climb from the trunk of this peninsula to the outer tip under the fan. BTW forget that rope holding this up,...just temporary for effect. That will likely be a piece of all-thread hanging from the ceiling studs, and camouflaged as a tall mountaintop radio antenna or whatever.)....

BTW did you notice that paper plate taped to the beam at its outer tip? I will talk about that coming up.

 

[beiland]

So now my sketchy plan is starting to look like this,..

The 'trunk' of the peninsula is a 2 foot deep piece of plywood across the back side of the layout. I've temporarily relocated my coal mine from the right hand corner over to the left hand corner. So I have a couple of mainline tracks that loop into the helix area, and also have a shortcut track provision to loop around the perimeter of the upper deck. Other than that things are open to suggestions as to how a lumber mill, its pond, etc , and the delivery logging trains can unload and turn around for another trip back up the peninsula??

The logging peninsula itself I am imagining will be about 18" wide, and would have at least 1 track on either side of some sort of view splitter/divider down its center (at least 2 tracks). These tracks could make various twist/curves, cross bridges, etc, etc with various scenic backdrops and trees to reach either end....about 7-8 feet in length and 9" deep.

At the tip of the peninsula there would be a 'gallows style' turntable to turn the logging locos around, and perhaps hold 1or 2 locos at idle. That paper plate I mentioned above represents that gallows turntable. I've measured a few of my longer loggers, and it appears as though a small of turntable only 8" in diameter will handle any of them, including the Heisler with its aux tender.

 

[wvg_ca]

i didn't notice you saying, but what era are you going to use ?

 

[beiland]

I have no allegence to era, but I do basically like steam.

In my logging operations I doubt I will use any diesels,...all steam,...much more 'exciting'

 

[beiland]

Gallows Style Turntable

Just ran across this site with some excellent photos of one at Yosemite Valley Railroad
http://memorableplaces.com/yvrr/GALLARY_HTML.DIR/YV.GalleryRems2009-TT.html

Perhaps I'll need two such items,..one down at the saw mill area as well,...... or some sort of wye arrangement.

 

[beiland]

No Activity?
I'm hoping this period of 'no activity' on this subject is due to someone working on an idea. Or perhaps its just a slow time of the year for model train subjects and the forums in general?

Did I present my case well enough? and/or, are the sketches good enough to work with??

Is there a way I could provide a better 'scale drawing' ? I don't have a scanner big enough to do the full dwg,...perhaps I should just scan a portion of the area set aside for the saw mill?

At the moment I just try to photo the scale dwg I am working on,...and from a considerable distance so as to not distort the image so much. Then I edit it (IrfanView) it down to a smaller size presentable to the forums. Not the best of situations.

 

[logandsawman]

Hi,

The prototypical logging scene would be logs cars moving back (empty one way and loaded the other) and forth from the woods to the mill with your shay. This could be a spur off your mainline or a separate dedicated spur directly from the mill.

alternately, logs could be loaded onto trucks (in the woods) and hauled to a siding where they are loaded on rail cars for transport to the mill. This is very common today.

Some mills take in all wood from trucks then could ship our both via truck or rail. The mill would access to a mainline either via siding or spur where the milled lumber would go for distribution.

There is also a combination where logs come into the mill both trucks and rail, and leave the mill (as boards or products) both ways as well. This is how modern large mills run.

hope this helps

 

[beiland]

Logging Turntables

I am not an expert on logging railroads, but I think that most of them didn't use turntables and the logging locos just ran back and forth. One of the reasons is that the logging rails were often relocated to different parts of forests, and rebuilding a turntable at each new location would be costly and time consuming, as well as eating up a wider spot of land. I'm sure there are probably some logging railroads that did use turntables, but I think for the most part the did not.
Al Carter

Hi Al,
I think you may be correct there, ….probably not many logging operations used them.

But I've looked at a number of the A-frame/ Gallows types where the upper structure is built with heavy timbers and steel rod such that the 'bridge structure' can be a relatively flat plane not requiring big support from the perimeter surrounding track, nor a pit of any sort. With the heavy timbers and likely heavy cables and rods they utilized in other ways in logging, I would think this might have been be a real way to construct a relatively cheap, remote turntable that could be moved to another logging location as needed. And naturally hand powered

I'm not 'timber knowledgeable' either, so I wonder how the prototype guys turned their logging locos for the 'return trip'. I suspect it was some sort of 'wye'. But these things eat up 'real estate' also, even if you are just turning the loco and not all the log cars (actually don't see a need to turn all the log cars, they can run either way?)



A wye arrangement at the tip of my peninsula may not be that doable either as its only 18” wide at its best. So that's 'why' I thought of a gallows turntable out at that end.

Besides they look neat, ...and I think I have one that needs TLC, but I can't remember right now.

 

[beiland]

In your track plan you're using the turntable to turn the engine from one route to a second route, but you'll find the cars can't very well follow that engine.
There is one way to make this make sense, if your left track was to the main and your right track was to the logging hills, then you could put a divider down the center of the island and have logging on one side and a sawmill on the other near the end with the turntable, the turntable allowing you to not only turn engines but to also reassigning them to the logging route instead of the lumber route. The logging cars would thus be captive to the logging route. You would want the tracks leading to the turntable from the sawmill side to be two lines instead of one, so that an engine could pull in a cut of cars, turn on the turntable, and then use the second track as a runaround to head to the tail of the train, remove the caboose to a nearby spur, hook up to the loaded cars, and then collect the caboose at the tail end on the way out.
Benny]/quote]

Hi Benny,
I'm having a little trouble understanding portions of your reply,...so a little clarification would be appreciated if you don't mind.

I believe I realized that the cars would not be able to follow the loco,...onto a turntable,...nor onto a reasonable size wye. I didn't feel that the logging cars needed to operate in any specific direction,...so the loco could runaround and hook up to the former tail end, then pull from there?

I was a little confused by your reference to a 'logging route' vs a 'lumber route'. also were you suggesting that the sawmill be located near the turntable I was suggestion for the tip of the peninsula, ie "a sawmill on the other near the end with the turntable" ??

My original thought was to just a single 'logging track' run down the peninsula between the mill facilities at the trunk of the peninsula, and the forest gathering spot at the tip of the peninsula,....and perhaps some sort of 'runaround track'.

I subsequently thought why not DOUBLE this scenic logging track footage by having a logging track down both sides of a scenic divide?.....not prototypical, nor modeling correctness, but condensed version when modeling space is limited? Is my explanation understandable?

 

[logandsawman]

I believe the out and back would be the most prototypical for older rail lines, say pre war. The mill deck or yard and track configuration would allow loading and unloading without turning the train engine around. The track would be extended into the forest as trees are cut and areas are cleared. When a patch of timber is cut, the rails were often taken up. This was common in Minnesota and Wisconsin after the era of river drives.

Newer lines would most likely employ a siding near the woods where logs are being cut. That is where logs are loaded onto train cars. These would be hauled and loaded by truck, so a road of sorts usually parallels the track at these locations.

However you may find exceptions to everything. There was a turntable like the one shown at a small town near where I grew up, Grantsburg, Wisconsin. This was also a heavily timbered area and it is conceivable the locomotive hauling logs could have been turned. There would have to be a siding where cars are stored so the locomotive could get around them.

 

[beiland]

Running Backwards

​

While I do like the idea of the turntable, there is something else... You mentioned a grade... On any line with "steep" grades, you'll want to run your steamers with the firebox facing downhill and the boiler uphill, so as to make it easier to maintain the necessary water level at the firebox end (which must be completely covered with water at all times).

Once the grades become really steep, it is usually required to have the loco always at the downhill side of the train to prevent runaway cars. In some cases this lead to unusual stations on mainline railroads as the whole train had to be turned before going down the other side of the pass. Usually this is solved by a dead-end terminal station at the top of the hill. Train goes in with the engine trailing (pushing uphill) and leaves with the engine leading (pulling and braking downhill).​

With logging lines being often in steep terrain, I would expect them to not turn engines or trains in normal operation.​

So, I guess you *don't* want to turn your engines or run around trains on the logging line.​

As mentioned, individual lines' practice will differ.​

Have fun!​

PS: also, you'll always want to design your logging lines so that your Shay's cylinders will point towards the aisle so as to present the "interesting" side to the viewer. Turning locos would obliterate that ;-)​

PPS: the "loco at the downhill side of the train" is why you generally don't see switchbacks on steep lines, at least not in Germany...​

dark2star​

 

[beiland]

Another thing about steam locos is making sure the water is over the crown sheet, or else Bad Things happen. If the steam locos goes front-first down a steep grade - that sends the water towards the front of the boiler, lowering the level over the crown sheet. Going down backwards, with the firebox ont he downhill side, keeps the water high.

--Randy

 

[beiland]

As dark2star said, it was not always advisable to turn the engines. On really step grades it was better to keep the firebox on the downhill side.

​

With lesser grades sometimes locomotives with tenders were used were turning at the end of the run was advisable.​

​

The Caspar Lumber Company on California's Mendecino Coast was one of these roads. They ran among others two Baldwin 2-6-6-2 locomotives named Samson and trojan: https://www.mendorailhistory.org/images/railroads/locos/2-6-6-2/2662_01.jpg​

​

They had a turning wye in Caspar and wyes in the woods where secondary lines branched off the main: https://www.mendorailhistory.org/images/Caspar-RR-Map.gif​

​

Two wyes can be seen in the right most quarter of the map and a third in the middle.​

The map is from this website: https://www.mendorailhistory.org/1_towns/caspar/caspar_lumber.htm​

Here is a link to a pdf with the history: https://www.mendorailhistory.org/downloads/Western-Railroader_Caspar.pdf​

The website is worth browsing.​

Regards, Volker​

​

Thanks Volker for that website reference, and its link to that video of the old time film footage.

https://www.mendorailhistory.org/videos/other/video.files/caspar_1.m4v

 

[beiland]

WOW, Volker,
Thanks for those images/references. I found this one of particular interest,...





Even though that trestle bridge is just a vehicle one, it could have been a railroad one if someone is so inclined to model it as one?

I wonder what that smaller, shorter 'thing' is ??

I had been wondering what sort of obstructions might have been in the way during the log's path in the ponds.? I had wonder about bridge/trestle obstructions??

Perhaps my sawmill could be located on the other side of a mainline bridge that crosses a logging pond / river??

 

[beiland]

Timber Yard Working Loco

Since I am partial to steam locos, I was wondering what small loco I might use in my lumber/timber scene to move the sawn lumber from the sawmill to the facility/structure that would be stashing it, packaging it, and loading it onto centerbeam cars, etc for mainline cars to pick up.

Then I remembered a great little steam switcher I had picked up at an estate sale. That gentleman had even added some very nice details to that little gem. It just needs some TLC, and perhaps a motor upgrade.

 

[beiland]

HERE IS A Google books preview of the Kalmbach book The Model Railroader's Guide to Logging Railroads: https://books.google.de/books?id=4rxovTxv-tcC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=loggin...
The link leads to the locomotive chapter. Scrolling will lead you to some odd locomotives.
Or a 0-4-2T: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Logging_railroad_locomotive_engine_(3228982587).jpg
Logging lines often started with small tank engines before geared locomotives were readily available. The were often relegated to yard service with the advent of geared locomotives.
Here is the Daisy of the Caspar Lumber Company: https://www.mendorailhistory.org/1_railroads/locos/0-4-2.htm
Click on the photo for a slide show. The menu to the left contains under Locomotives a number of wheel arrangements.
To cut a long story short, I think you can use you 0-4-4 as mill switcher.
Regards, Volker

Another great posting Volker. I really enjoyed those photos of the different logging locos.

 

[malletman]

Most logging lines never turned their locomotives, especially with geared or tank style steamers. Only some of the very large shows, like Weyerhauser, Rayonier ect had some places where they turned the locomotives. But you will find, even the biggest articulated logging steamers ran backwards many times, hence the tenders having good headlights, many times up on platforms, dog house for the head end brakeman ect. Nice NWSL Booth Kelly logger btw, one of those is on my want list.

 

[beiland]

Finished up my swinging bridge structure yesterday, and cut out some of reliefs in the bottom main decks at the heads of the two aisles. Today I am going to recut a plywood deck piece for the upper deck that will contain most of the sawmill / pond / lumber consolidation structures. Don't know that exact trackplan yet, but I'm going to provide as much area as I think I can afford.

As a result of the forum inputs I am heavily considering putting that gallows turntable down here by the mills rather than out at the tip of the peninsula.

Luckily I will be able to reach most of it as the aisle cutouts down below will allow me to get closer to the back wall,....and my tall height and long arm reach are an advantage.

 

[beiland]

Train Movements / Track Planning


What if I had a logging pond next to the sawmill down at the base of my peninsula, and I was running moderately short logging trains out to the tip of the peninsula. And I abandoned my original idea of a small turntable at the the tip of the peninsula, and accepted the general practice that the logging locos/trains could just back up in reverse down the mountain to the sawmill (down the peninsula).


Now here is the question. Could I have a visible track that would permit viewing the empty train going out the peninsula, and a loaded train backing down the peninsula, (or perhaps 2 such tracks). Then have an invisible track that would move the trains in the opposite direction, when they were not performing their task correctly (ie, loaded train going out, empty train coming back). The invisible track would be hidden in the scenery to carry those politically incorrect trains to their 'staging points'. Perhaps 2 waiting tracks by the pond, and 2 out the peninsula??

Did I describe that correctly?