I want to construct a layout map with bi-color LEDs for each of my turnouts. The LEDs would be showing the status of the rail beyond the turnout. I would have two LEDs for each turnout, one for the main line track and one for the turnout track. When the turnout was switched off the main line track the LEDs would be, red for the main line and green for the turnout track. I am using Kato turnouts with remote swithes under the turnout. My question is; how do I wire the LEDs to show the change in direction of the turnout. I know I have power to the Kato converter which is attached to the Kato toggel switch and then two wires (+ & -) are comming off the toggel switch going somewhere (eventually to the turnout), but how do I wire the LEDs?
LED Wiring
- Thread starter Royalhaw
- Start date
Well I found out the way to wire the Bi-color LED. Unlike the turnouts the LED require power all the time (to remain lit). The turnouts only use reversing pulse power to activate the turnout's motors, they do not have the connections to the turnout powered all the time. But if you are using the Bi-Color LEDs then you need to have a double throw switch controlling the power to the LED. The LED (and resistor) leads are attached to the center pole of the switch. The power to the switch is switched on either side of the switch connectons. That is it is + and - on one side and the other connections on the other side would be reversed (- on one and + on the other). That is because the Bi-Color LED uses reverse power to change it's color. But to stay lit it needs this power all the time. So now I have the LED working next I need to find out how to have this double throw switch also send a pulse power to the turnout. I could use two switches, one pulse and one constant, but I would rather have one switch work the LED and the turnout together. ANYONE HAVE ANY THOUGHTS????? YOUR HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPREDIATED.An added thought. I attempted to hook up the turnout to the feed from the double throw switch. It worked . For a short time then the turnout motor burned out . The turnouts need a pluse power to make the switch and then the next time they need a pulse power in the reverse power. First it is + and - , then it needs - and +. So maybe I will have to use two switches, one to activate the turnout and one to activate the LEDs. The LEDs work great using the double throw toggle switch. I will be using two LEDs for each turnout. One for the main track and one for the sidding. When the turnout goes to the main line the LED for the main line is green and the sidding LED is red. Then when I activate the turnout the main line becomes red and the sidding is green. Works great but I can't use the LEDs switch to activate the turnout. IF ANYONE HAS ANY THOUGHTS I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE THEM.. Thanks ... Harlan
I attempted to hook up the turnout to the feed from the double throw switch. It worked . For a short time then the turnout motor burned out . The turnouts need a pluse power to make the switch and then the next time they need a pulse power in the reverse power. First it is + and - , then it needs - and +. So maybe I will have to use two switches, one to activate the turnout and one to activate the LEDs. The LEDs work great using the double throw toggle switch. I will be using two LEDs for each turnout. One for the main track and one for the sidding. When the turnout goes to the main line the LED for the main line is green and the sidding LED is red. Then when I activate the turnout the main line becomes red and the sidding is green. Works great but I can't use the LEDs switch to activate the turnout. IF ANYONE HAS ANY THOUGHTS I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE THEM.. Thanks ... Harlan
kjd
Go make something!
I found this page:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/ToggleSingle.html
on this page:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/CircuitIndex.html
The other option I can think of would be to use a relay, like the one Atlas sells, to switch the lights. A single DPDT momentary switch could both throw the turnout and change the lights if your power supply is large enough to power two solenoids at one time.
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/ToggleSingle.html
on this page:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/CircuitIndex.html
The other option I can think of would be to use a relay, like the one Atlas sells, to switch the lights. A single DPDT momentary switch could both throw the turnout and change the lights if your power supply is large enough to power two solenoids at one time.
Rico
BN Modeller
I used tortoise machines and did what you're looking to do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VOypDQkfc4
Otherwise you would need contacts with solenoid type switch machines.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VOypDQkfc4
Otherwise you would need contacts with solenoid type switch machines.
Hi Harlan..
I'm not real familiar with the Kato turnouts that you are using, but from what you have said, they seem to be more like the Atlas snap turnouts, where you have to apply power to them momentarily (a single pulse) to get them to activate, rather than the motorised units such as a Tortise..
I use the Atlas snap turnouts on my layout, and I am considering doing the same thing that you have with the LEDs to indicate if they are switched to the side, or to the main..
You seem to have the LED indication side of things sorted out, so I will just discuss the turnouts..
What I was going to do is use a 2 position toggle switch, and a momentary on pushbutton (or normally open, press to turn on) to activate the turnout.. What you need to do is get the common wire of your turnout, and wire that directly to one leg of your 12volt powersupply..
Then from the other leg of your 12 volt powersupply, run a wire to a terminal on your pushbutton switch, then another wire from the second terminal of your pushbutton switch, to the center terminal on 2 position toggle switch.. Then connect the "main" throw wire to one side of the toggle switch, and the "side" to the other terminal.. (where these wires connect to the toggle switch will depend on how you have wired the LEDs)
Now, what should happen is if the turnout is running on the main and you want to switch it to the side, all you need to do is switch the toggle switch other way (to the "side" position) and your indication LEDS will change, then you just need to quickly press and release (for less than 1 second) the pushbutton to change the direction of the turnout..
The only flaw in the circuit is that if you changed the position of the toggle switch, but didnt press the pushbutton to change the turnout, then your indication (LEDs) will show that the turnout to be different to what it really is...
Look, its not as good as having micro limit switches setup on tortise switch motors, where the indication light will only change once the turnout direction has changed, but its the best I could come up with given what I had to work with..
What voltage powersupply are you using?
Does that make sense, or do you need a diagram??
Cheers
I'm not real familiar with the Kato turnouts that you are using, but from what you have said, they seem to be more like the Atlas snap turnouts, where you have to apply power to them momentarily (a single pulse) to get them to activate, rather than the motorised units such as a Tortise..
I use the Atlas snap turnouts on my layout, and I am considering doing the same thing that you have with the LEDs to indicate if they are switched to the side, or to the main..
You seem to have the LED indication side of things sorted out, so I will just discuss the turnouts..
What I was going to do is use a 2 position toggle switch, and a momentary on pushbutton (or normally open, press to turn on) to activate the turnout.. What you need to do is get the common wire of your turnout, and wire that directly to one leg of your 12volt powersupply..
Then from the other leg of your 12 volt powersupply, run a wire to a terminal on your pushbutton switch, then another wire from the second terminal of your pushbutton switch, to the center terminal on 2 position toggle switch.. Then connect the "main" throw wire to one side of the toggle switch, and the "side" to the other terminal.. (where these wires connect to the toggle switch will depend on how you have wired the LEDs)
Now, what should happen is if the turnout is running on the main and you want to switch it to the side, all you need to do is switch the toggle switch other way (to the "side" position) and your indication LEDS will change, then you just need to quickly press and release (for less than 1 second) the pushbutton to change the direction of the turnout..
The only flaw in the circuit is that if you changed the position of the toggle switch, but didnt press the pushbutton to change the turnout, then your indication (LEDs) will show that the turnout to be different to what it really is...
Look, its not as good as having micro limit switches setup on tortise switch motors, where the indication light will only change once the turnout direction has changed, but its the best I could come up with given what I had to work with..
What voltage powersupply are you using?
Does that make sense, or do you need a diagram??
Cheers
Last edited by a moderator:
I really appreciate the responses. Everyone of them make sence for what I am doing. My power supply is a combination. I have both a DCC system and a DC system setup. The track side is connected through a double throw switch that will allow for me to either run in the DC mode or in the DCC mode so that I am able to run all my rolling stock (have some old non-DCC locos). The DC's AC connections are used for the lights etc. on the layout as well as the turnouts. I am using a Kato AC/DC converter to work the turnouts in DC mode. I was going to use a push button control for activating the turnouts (I don't like the large blue Kato switches) but I have been having a problem working at the required power reversal required to make the turnout switch back. The change in polarity is the problem. The recommendation links given by KJD look very good but I will need more electrical training to work with the structure of the switch. I might just use Backlash's suggestion and use a push button AND a toggle to keep tabs on each turnout. More to come as testing continues..... Thankyou all for you help. Great Info......Harlan
Harlan..
These Kato turnouts that you are using are they the Unitrack ones that are described here?? http://www.fiferhobby.com/html/how_to_make_kato_turnout_contr.html
If this is what you have, then they work by reversing the polarity to the coil inside the turnout on a momentary basis..
OK, so you have 3 easy options for controlling them.. A momentary action on/off/on type switch as used by Mr Fifer in the tutorial above.. You could also use a single pushbutton and a toggle switch, or you could use two double pole pushbuttons..
Using the single pushbutton and a toggle switch, this will allow you wire and use your LED indication lights..
But if you were to use two pushbuttons or Mr Fifers option, Your LED indication will not stay on, as the output of the pushbuttons is momentary, so the power will go off once they are released.. The only way that you will get the LEDs to stay on is by using some type of electronic flip/flop arrangement that will change state when either pushbutton is pressed.. Supplying continuous power to these type of turnouts will burn them out.. (as you already found out in one of your previous posts..)
What do you think?
These Kato turnouts that you are using are they the Unitrack ones that are described here?? http://www.fiferhobby.com/html/how_to_make_kato_turnout_contr.html
If this is what you have, then they work by reversing the polarity to the coil inside the turnout on a momentary basis..
OK, so you have 3 easy options for controlling them.. A momentary action on/off/on type switch as used by Mr Fifer in the tutorial above.. You could also use a single pushbutton and a toggle switch, or you could use two double pole pushbuttons..
Using the single pushbutton and a toggle switch, this will allow you wire and use your LED indication lights..
But if you were to use two pushbuttons or Mr Fifers option, Your LED indication will not stay on, as the output of the pushbuttons is momentary, so the power will go off once they are released.. The only way that you will get the LEDs to stay on is by using some type of electronic flip/flop arrangement that will change state when either pushbutton is pressed.. Supplying continuous power to these type of turnouts will burn them out.. (as you already found out in one of your previous posts..)
What do you think?
Backlash everything you state is true. It does appear that, for me, the best path would be to have two switches for each turnout. One is a pulse switch like the Atlas ones (small and easy) but a push button type and the second, controlling the LEDs, would be the double pole toggle that I have tested. Only issue would be remembering to push the button to activate the turnout and then pushing the toggle to activate the LEDs. Thanks for your input....Harlan
Harlan
I dont think that you quite understand what I mean..
Im going to use a pushbutton switch such as this.. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062539 ..
And a toggle switch such as this.. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102475 ..
What YOU will need to do (the Atlas turnouts are different) is wire the toggle switch as Mr Fifer has suggested in his turorial.. When you wire the switch this way, it allows you to reverse the polarity of the output voltage when you toggle the switch.
To make it easier for me to explain all of this to you, I suggest that you use RED and BLACK for the wires that go to the centre terminals of the switch, and this will be the DC input from the 12 volt DC power supply (or in your case, the DC output of the Kato AC to DC converter, which is otherwise known as a rectifier).. Just to make things easy, say that the colours of the two wires coming out of your toggle switch are blue and white..
Now get two LED's, (different colours if you like, maybe red and green) and solder a 1K ohm (1000 ohms) 1/2 watt current limiting resistor in series with cathode lead on the LED.. (The cathode is the shorter of the 2 legs of the LED)..
LED's are like all other diodes, they only conduct electricity in one direction, so we can use this to our advantage.. Connect the Anode of one LED (Red LED) to the white wire, and the resistor (cathode) of the LED to the blue wire.. Now connect the second LED (Green LED) the other way around, so connect the anode to the blue wire, and the resistor (cathode) to the white..
Now if you connect the Red and Black wires to your 12V DC supply, the red LED should be lit (illuminated) on one position of the toggle switch, and the green LED should be lit in the other position of the toggle switch...
Now lets connect it to the Kato Turnout..
Because the Kato turnouts only need a short "pulse" of electricity to operate, and the output from our toggle switch is a constant output, we need to install a normally open push button switch in between (in series) the output of the toggle switch, and the input of the Kato turnout, otherwise you will burnout the Kato turnout..
To do this, what you need to do is connect the white wire from the toggle switch to one wire from the Kato turnout.. Then you need to connect the blue wire from the toggle switch to one terminal of the push button switch.. Then connect the second wire from the Kato turnout to the second (other unused) terminal of the push button..
To make it all work, turn on your DC power supply, and one LED should be lit (say its the red LED). Now press and release the pushbutton switch (for less than one second) to synchronise the turnout with the toggle switch position.. (note the turnout may not move, as it may already be in the correct position).. Now switch the toggle switch to the other position, and the red LED should go out, and the green LED should be lit.. Now press and release (1 second) the pushbutton switch, and the turnout should "switch" position to the other track..
Hopefully you can understand all of that..
As I said previously, the only drama with this circuit is that if you happen to move the toggle switch, and NOT press the pushbutton, the indication LED will show a different track to what the turnout really is on..
I dont think that you quite understand what I mean..
Im going to use a pushbutton switch such as this.. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062539 ..
And a toggle switch such as this.. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102475 ..
What YOU will need to do (the Atlas turnouts are different) is wire the toggle switch as Mr Fifer has suggested in his turorial.. When you wire the switch this way, it allows you to reverse the polarity of the output voltage when you toggle the switch.
To make it easier for me to explain all of this to you, I suggest that you use RED and BLACK for the wires that go to the centre terminals of the switch, and this will be the DC input from the 12 volt DC power supply (or in your case, the DC output of the Kato AC to DC converter, which is otherwise known as a rectifier).. Just to make things easy, say that the colours of the two wires coming out of your toggle switch are blue and white..
Now get two LED's, (different colours if you like, maybe red and green) and solder a 1K ohm (1000 ohms) 1/2 watt current limiting resistor in series with cathode lead on the LED.. (The cathode is the shorter of the 2 legs of the LED)..
LED's are like all other diodes, they only conduct electricity in one direction, so we can use this to our advantage.. Connect the Anode of one LED (Red LED) to the white wire, and the resistor (cathode) of the LED to the blue wire.. Now connect the second LED (Green LED) the other way around, so connect the anode to the blue wire, and the resistor (cathode) to the white..
Now if you connect the Red and Black wires to your 12V DC supply, the red LED should be lit (illuminated) on one position of the toggle switch, and the green LED should be lit in the other position of the toggle switch...
Now lets connect it to the Kato Turnout..
Because the Kato turnouts only need a short "pulse" of electricity to operate, and the output from our toggle switch is a constant output, we need to install a normally open push button switch in between (in series) the output of the toggle switch, and the input of the Kato turnout, otherwise you will burnout the Kato turnout..
To do this, what you need to do is connect the white wire from the toggle switch to one wire from the Kato turnout.. Then you need to connect the blue wire from the toggle switch to one terminal of the push button switch.. Then connect the second wire from the Kato turnout to the second (other unused) terminal of the push button..
To make it all work, turn on your DC power supply, and one LED should be lit (say its the red LED). Now press and release the pushbutton switch (for less than one second) to synchronise the turnout with the toggle switch position.. (note the turnout may not move, as it may already be in the correct position).. Now switch the toggle switch to the other position, and the red LED should go out, and the green LED should be lit.. Now press and release (1 second) the pushbutton switch, and the turnout should "switch" position to the other track..
Hopefully you can understand all of that..
As I said previously, the only drama with this circuit is that if you happen to move the toggle switch, and NOT press the pushbutton, the indication LED will show a different track to what the turnout really is on..
Last edited by a moderator:
Artieiii
Member
Backlash,
would it be possible for your to post a simple wiring diagram for your suggestions. It sounds like something I could do but I want to be sure I do it properly. On my layout I will be using Atlas turnouts I think they work with a momentary switch as well. If I under stand correctly, since the LED's only light with polarity in one direction, you are using that to your advantage to make only the red or green ones light with the toggle switch position. TIA
-Art
would it be possible for your to post a simple wiring diagram for your suggestions. It sounds like something I could do but I want to be sure I do it properly. On my layout I will be using Atlas turnouts I think they work with a momentary switch as well. If I under stand correctly, since the LED's only light with polarity in one direction, you are using that to your advantage to make only the red or green ones light with the toggle switch position. TIA
-Art
Hi Art..
Both the Kato and Atlas turnouts only need a pulse or momentary burst of electricity to make them work.. If you supply a continuous voltage to either one, they will burn out..
Look, I apologise in advance for the crude drawings, but I have no electrical drawing software to use..
As you will see from the diagrams below, whilst both turnouts can be operated by a pushbutton switch, and a toggle switch, how they are wired is completely different..
The Atlas turnout diagram..
The Kato turnout diagram..
Hopefully they will be reasonably easy to understand.. The only thing that you may have trouble understanding is the DPDT toggle switches.. I have drawn each pole of the switch separately.. The solid line shows the connection through the switch in one position.. The broken line shows the electrical connection through the switch in the other position..
On the Kato drawing I added an additional wiring diagram to better show the physical connections as they would be made on the back of the DPDT toggle switch..
Both the Kato and Atlas turnouts only need a pulse or momentary burst of electricity to make them work.. If you supply a continuous voltage to either one, they will burn out..
Look, I apologise in advance for the crude drawings, but I have no electrical drawing software to use..
As you will see from the diagrams below, whilst both turnouts can be operated by a pushbutton switch, and a toggle switch, how they are wired is completely different..
The Atlas turnout diagram..
The Kato turnout diagram..
Hopefully they will be reasonably easy to understand.. The only thing that you may have trouble understanding is the DPDT toggle switches.. I have drawn each pole of the switch separately.. The solid line shows the connection through the switch in one position.. The broken line shows the electrical connection through the switch in the other position..
On the Kato drawing I added an additional wiring diagram to better show the physical connections as they would be made on the back of the DPDT toggle switch..
Last edited by a moderator:
Artieiii
Member
No need to apologize for the drawings...they are perfect! Exactly what I needed to know. I think I am gonna use this for my layout. My soldering has greatly improved over the last few weeks so I am ready for this new project.
Thanks again,
-Art
Thank you Backlash. I have gone one step further with my project. Since I wanted to have a positive display on all the time for the position of the turnout I needed LEDs on all the time for each side of the turnout but in opposite colors, Therefore I am using Bi-color LEDs and a double-throw toggle (6 connections). I attach the two center connections of the toggle to the LED's lead wires (black -, white +). Now I connect the resistor connected wire (+) of an LED to the White wire and one non-resistor connected wire (-) of the LED to the Black wire. Now do the opposite for the second LED (resister connected wire to the White and non-resistor connected wire to the Black wire). This will have the LEDs operate in the opposite color (red/green then green/red). Now from the DC source (red + and green -) you connect them to one set of the outside terminals of the toggle and then use crossed wire jumpers to the other two outside terminals or directly attach a set of the DC source wires to the outside terminal on the opposite side of the toggle but reverse these wires from the other outside terminals. Now when you activate the toggle one way the LEDs will be red (for main track) and green (for the siding) both always on. Then switch the toggle and you will get green (for main track) and red (for the siding) again both always on. I did this because I wanted a positive display of the position of the trunout all the time. Now to activate the turnout I want to use a polarity reversing push switch (like Atlas slip switches). That's the switch I am looking for now. As you mentioned you need to remember to activate both switches whenever you want to change the position of the turnout. I really would want a switch that could do BOTH functions at the same time, that is, reverse polarity in momentary pulse to the turnout but it also has reverse polarity power to the LEDs but on all the time. KJD sent me some links that I have looked at but I still need more electric training to understand how they work. BUT IN EITHER CASE it has been great to receive responses to my question. It shows that the forum works and we all attempt to help each other. Thanks much....Harlan
Harlan..
If you want to use bi-coloured LEDs instead of the single coloured ones, then there is no reason why you could not just substitute them for the single coloured LEDs in the Kato turnout drawing I have posted..
The only thing that you will need to do is to wire one LED the opposite way to the other, so one is green whilst the other is red.. Their colours wil alternate as the toggle switch is moved and the polarity changes..
I have never used Bi-coloured LEDs so I dont know is they have any way of telling which way you need to connect them to get each colour to work (eg one leg of the LED longer that the other)
Cheers
Mark..
If you want to use bi-coloured LEDs instead of the single coloured ones, then there is no reason why you could not just substitute them for the single coloured LEDs in the Kato turnout drawing I have posted..
The only thing that you will need to do is to wire one LED the opposite way to the other, so one is green whilst the other is red.. Their colours wil alternate as the toggle switch is moved and the polarity changes..
I have never used Bi-coloured LEDs so I dont know is they have any way of telling which way you need to connect them to get each colour to work (eg one leg of the LED longer that the other)
Cheers
Mark..
Artieiii
Member
For my LED's I have been putting the resistor on the positive pole (long lead) of the LED. I am not sure if it matters. My first test that's how I did it and It did not burn out the bulb so I have been sticking with it.
-Art
Hi Art..
No, it doesnt matter if you put the resistor on the Anode or Cathode of the LED, just as long as you use one..
If you dont, the LED wont last very long...
The only reason I put the resistor on the cathode in the Kato drawing, is because I put a single resistor on the cathode of the LEDs in nthe Atlas Drawing..
Goodluck..
No, it doesnt matter if you put the resistor on the Anode or Cathode of the LED, just as long as you use one..
If you dont, the LED wont last very long...
The only reason I put the resistor on the cathode in the Kato drawing, is because I put a single resistor on the cathode of the LEDs in nthe Atlas Drawing..
Goodluck..
Bells just went off, light bulbs just lit...... Backlash I now understand your Kato diagraphms. The DPDT switch runs the LEDs and you then use a momentrary pulse normall off switch AFTER THE LEDs that goes to the turnout. I was not thinking about wiring the pushbutton switch AFTER the LEDs. Therefore the LEDs are on all the time and the turnout motor gets a reversed pulse only when the pushbutton is activated. Great job. As you mentioned you still need to remember to push both switchs and the order OF ACTIVATION IS important. You need to switch the LEDs first (which reverses the polarity) and then push the turnout button. Now let us find out how to do the same tasks with only one switch....... Thank you Harlan.....
Artieiii
Member
Still trying to wrap my mind around this. But it seems to me that a simple relay would be able to activate the switch power in either switch location (the switch determines which LED comes on (red or green) couldn't a relay send the momentary power to the turnout regardless of which way the LED switch is turned? This way 1 switch makes the turnout move and the LED's change color. Sorry I am not great with circuits just a thought.
-Art
-Art
