Layout Design Help Needed
- Thread starter modelbob
- Start date
sushob said:
Yes, that's about what I'm hoping to do. The problem is I can't get too close to the wall (top of the plan) but I'm hoping to about split the differencer between what you show and what I drew.
There will be some fine-tuning of areas like this one once I get the basic mailine layout finalized.
Looking at sushob's drawing highlites another point
, looking at the upper left, from the back wall to the edge of the bench work appears to be two feet ( actually a good width for reaching) now your station peninsula seems to be butted against it, leaving no room in between . That adds another two feet to the back wall. Four foot reach a definate no!no!
and for reaching that would be a true statement.
The way I see it there isn't enough room between yard tracks and station tracks for a popup access hatch. Do you have enough room to move the peninsula south toward the bottom of the drawing? I realize this might cramp the nice broad curve entering the station yard from that direction
but all points have to be considered Cheers Willis
OK, based on some comments here and some comments on the LDSIG group, I've come up with a revised plan. To be honest, I'm not sure if I like it yet, and it's only a concept at this point, but it's definitely interesting...
OK, here's a revised version to try and fix a couple of problems noted in various comments.
The track has been changed to be less symmetrical and not always at right angles. The curve from the staging yard to the station has been increased to 20 inch radius for better operations. The custom curved diamonds have been replaced with stock 60 degree diamonds. An access hatch allows better access to the switches at the west (left) end of the staging yard.
I've also totally embraced the passenger / station theme in this version. Passenger trains are now the main focus of this layout.
The staging yard now serves as the coach yard. The switch crew makes up passenger trains by picking up coaches there, and picking up a baggage and/or mail car from the express track.
The train is assembled in the station, then the power is coupled on and the passenger train departs and does a few laps. Upon return, it pulls into the station. The switch crew has to pull the train out so the engine can escape, then they return the cars to the servicing portion of the yard, mail to the express tracks, possibly a special spot for the diner to be re-stocked etc.
The green track is a branchline to allow for some freight operations too. It is actually above the other tracks, climbing up after it passes behind the station (obviously need a bit of re-aligment there, the station itself will be above the tracks, so the branch can pass under the building)
It will meander through the layout, eventually reaching a town and/or mine on the right side. This area will be above, and seperate from, the coach yard area. The tracks will be in the same scene to the duckunder, then the spur will go to a second level.
OK, here's a revised version to try and fix a couple of problems noted in various comments.
The track has been changed to be less symmetrical and not always at right angles. The curve from the staging yard to the station has been increased to 20 inch radius for better operations. The custom curved diamonds have been replaced with stock 60 degree diamonds. An access hatch allows better access to the switches at the west (left) end of the staging yard.
I've also totally embraced the passenger / station theme in this version. Passenger trains are now the main focus of this layout.
The staging yard now serves as the coach yard. The switch crew makes up passenger trains by picking up coaches there, and picking up a baggage and/or mail car from the express track.
The train is assembled in the station, then the power is coupled on and the passenger train departs and does a few laps. Upon return, it pulls into the station. The switch crew has to pull the train out so the engine can escape, then they return the cars to the servicing portion of the yard, mail to the express tracks, possibly a special spot for the diner to be re-stocked etc.
The green track is a branchline to allow for some freight operations too. It is actually above the other tracks, climbing up after it passes behind the station (obviously need a bit of re-aligment there, the station itself will be above the tracks, so the branch can pass under the building)
It will meander through the layout, eventually reaching a town and/or mine on the right side. This area will be above, and seperate from, the coach yard area. The tracks will be in the same scene to the duckunder, then the spur will go to a second level.
Hi Bob, well my first comment is it is now better than before, but unless you are plastic man with a great reach, a lot more has to be done for operator/maintainer comfort.
What I'm refering to is the lack of access room between the coach yard and the pass. terminal. If something derails in the coach yard where's your access? The greyed in area is certainly not enough.
My suggestion is instead of the angling in of the terminal yard, straighten it out. To increase the access to the coach yard, move the freight road parallel to the coach yard, even better would be to move it to the far side where I've shaded in with red since it will be on an incline and higher than the coach road. Even at that depending on the width of the terminal peninsula it will only be about 2 feet. Also your maximum reach to the mine will be barely accessable at 34 inches.
What do you think?
cheers Willis
What I'm refering to is the lack of access room between the coach yard and the pass. terminal. If something derails in the coach yard where's your access? The greyed in area is certainly not enough.
My suggestion is instead of the angling in of the terminal yard, straighten it out. To increase the access to the coach yard, move the freight road parallel to the coach yard, even better would be to move it to the far side where I've shaded in with red since it will be on an incline and higher than the coach road. Even at that depending on the width of the terminal peninsula it will only be about 2 feet. Also your maximum reach to the mine will be barely accessable at 34 inches.
What do you think?
cheers Willis
Willis,
Interesting ideas, but I see two problems...
1) We're getting back to everything symmetrical, which is something the LDSIG folks say to try and avoid, and I think they're right.
2) The branch line can't go where you suggest. You have no way of knowing this from the plan you were looking at, but that track is on a shelf, built rather heavy duty, from 2 x 4's so it can support storage boxes and the like. Every couple of feet there is support, so no track can go there.
Interesting ideas, but I see two problems...
1) We're getting back to everything symmetrical, which is something the LDSIG folks say to try and avoid, and I think they're right.
2) The branch line can't go where you suggest. You have no way of knowing this from the plan you were looking at, but that track is on a shelf, built rather heavy duty, from 2 x 4's so it can support storage boxes and the like. Every couple of feet there is support, so no track can go there.
Hmmm! the plot thickens, you don't have access to the coach yard or shelves after you put the terminal yard and leads in. If the terminal section is not movable, how are you going to access these storage shelves anyway? Something's got to give. Not much sense storing something if you have no access to it.
Who are the LDSIG folks, I never heard of them? One thing obvious is they haven't tried to do what you are trying to do with the same size limited space. Maybe you'll have to go a bit smaller.
Cheers Willis
abcraghead
Mmmm, turbos
I honestly think that trying to fit both the passenger terminal focus and the mine branch line is trying to squeeze too much in. If I were you I'd just pick one of the two and run with that.
Secondly, how about flipping the yard so the throat bends to the left instead of the right, and then putting the passenger terminal in running along the righthand wall to where the engine terminal used to be? A bypass track can continue around to hook into where the timesaver is to allow continuous operation. This gets rid of the peninsula and it's associated problems. Then if you *really* have to have the mine branch, you can put the peninsula back, but less oversized. Have the branch junction off the passenger terminal where the continuous tracks are, and if you make the grade steep enough maybe you could snake it back and forth over the mainline a few times before veering it to the peninsula about where you have the wye now, to a terminus out there.
If none of this makes sense I may be able to cut and paste something together to post.
Secondly, how about flipping the yard so the throat bends to the left instead of the right, and then putting the passenger terminal in running along the righthand wall to where the engine terminal used to be? A bypass track can continue around to hook into where the timesaver is to allow continuous operation. This gets rid of the peninsula and it's associated problems. Then if you *really* have to have the mine branch, you can put the peninsula back, but less oversized. Have the branch junction off the passenger terminal where the continuous tracks are, and if you make the grade steep enough maybe you could snake it back and forth over the mainline a few times before veering it to the peninsula about where you have the wye now, to a terminus out there.
If none of this makes sense I may be able to cut and paste something together to post.
> you don't have access to the coach yard or shelves
> after you put the terminal yard and leads in.
I have access, just not easy access. All of my benchwork is built very stout (thus the 2 x 4's) and I can lean on it, crawl on, even stand on it if I wanted too, though my head would hit the ceiling if I tried.
> how are you going to access these storage shelves anyway?
I very rarely access the stuff on them now. It's mostly back issue magazines and some model stuff along with some family memento type stuff. Everything is in those clear plastic tote bins. You want something, you slide the bin off the shelf.
If I put in the penisula, the bins would be stored 2 deep. You're right, accessing the 2nd bin would requiring moving the first one. Then again, it's been well over a year since I pulled any of them out as it is, so it wouldn't be a major issue. Think of it as being like stuff you have stored in the attic. Hassle to get to, but OK if it's only a rare occurence.
> Who are the LDSIG folks, I never heard of them?
It's a Yahoo group, I think it's part of the NMRA, but I'm not sure.
> One thing obvious is they haven't tried to do what you are trying
> to do with the same size limited space. Maybe you'll have to go a
> bit smaller.
I'll bet some of them have, it's quite a big group.
> after you put the terminal yard and leads in.
I have access, just not easy access. All of my benchwork is built very stout (thus the 2 x 4's) and I can lean on it, crawl on, even stand on it if I wanted too, though my head would hit the ceiling if I tried.
> how are you going to access these storage shelves anyway?
I very rarely access the stuff on them now. It's mostly back issue magazines and some model stuff along with some family memento type stuff. Everything is in those clear plastic tote bins. You want something, you slide the bin off the shelf.
If I put in the penisula, the bins would be stored 2 deep. You're right, accessing the 2nd bin would requiring moving the first one. Then again, it's been well over a year since I pulled any of them out as it is, so it wouldn't be a major issue. Think of it as being like stuff you have stored in the attic. Hassle to get to, but OK if it's only a rare occurence.
> Who are the LDSIG folks, I never heard of them?
It's a Yahoo group, I think it's part of the NMRA, but I'm not sure.
> One thing obvious is they haven't tried to do what you are trying
> to do with the same size limited space. Maybe you'll have to go a
> bit smaller.
I'll bet some of them have, it's quite a big group.
Hi Bob, well that is true for 2x4 benchwork, I too used 2x4 construction for mine. However when the scenery is added there is no way I'd be able to stand on it, lay on it, without destroying something that took me hours to complete. Alexander' idea makes good sense, I was thinking along the lines of putting the terminal along the right wall also, but hadn't figured what to do about the coach yard yet, you'd still be able to have the mine but it would be in a different configureation.
Cheers Willis
abcraghead
Mmmm, turbos
modelbob said:
Alright, here's the crude (and I do say crude) sketch.
abcraghead
Mmmm, turbos
Let's try again....
> What do you think Bob?
It is an interesting design, and not bad. I'll definitely give it some more thought.
There are a couple shortcomings, there is no longer a wye track, which eliminates some operational possibilities, and the engine terminal is deleted. So I'm not sure if I like this version as much as the other one or not.
Meanwhile, I'm currently working on a modified, probably overblown version of the layout, I'll post the results when I'm done.
It is an interesting design, and not bad. I'll definitely give it some more thought.
There are a couple shortcomings, there is no longer a wye track, which eliminates some operational possibilities, and the engine terminal is deleted. So I'm not sure if I like this version as much as the other one or not.
Meanwhile, I'm currently working on a modified, probably overblown version of the layout, I'll post the results when I'm done.
Revised Plan
Ok, based on lots of feedback, I've modified the design. To be honest, I don't know if I'll use it or not, but it's interesting...
This first is lower level staging. It will be hidden from view, and about 6 inches under the visible portion of the layout.
The second one is the visible portion of the layout. The station has been moved above the yard (which is hidden). You now have two options for continuous running, the double track oval, or a folded dogbone that goes around the room about 1-1/2 times.
Ok, based on lots of feedback, I've modified the design. To be honest, I don't know if I'll use it or not, but it's interesting...
This first is lower level staging. It will be hidden from view, and about 6 inches under the visible portion of the layout.
The second one is the visible portion of the layout. The station has been moved above the yard (which is hidden). You now have two options for continuous running, the double track oval, or a folded dogbone that goes around the room about 1-1/2 times.
Last edited by a moderator:
abcraghead
Mmmm, turbos
I like it but for the following:
1.) Engine terminal location. It feels odd to have it out there past the loop. How does the track get to it? Diamonding the curve?
2.) The grey track thing makes no sense. The lower level version seems to indicate that the tracks come out of staging into the timesaver area. However, the upper level one seems to indicate that those tracks come from the upper deck loop. I suppose it could be both, but where are the switches, and how do the two join at the same spot?
Durrr.... I'm lost.
3.) I'd make the station building more of a flat, letting you shove a couple stub tracks into the yard next to the wall. The scenic/structure space you lose would be more than made up for by the extra track capacity/flexibility.
4.) Why not forget about the turntable? You've got a balloon track, which is prototypical for a passenger facility, just use that, and put the engine storage tracks inside of it.
1.) Engine terminal location. It feels odd to have it out there past the loop. How does the track get to it? Diamonding the curve?
2.) The grey track thing makes no sense. The lower level version seems to indicate that the tracks come out of staging into the timesaver area. However, the upper level one seems to indicate that those tracks come from the upper deck loop. I suppose it could be both, but where are the switches, and how do the two join at the same spot?
Durrr.... I'm lost.
3.) I'd make the station building more of a flat, letting you shove a couple stub tracks into the yard next to the wall. The scenic/structure space you lose would be more than made up for by the extra track capacity/flexibility.
4.) Why not forget about the turntable? You've got a balloon track, which is prototypical for a passenger facility, just use that, and put the engine storage tracks inside of it.
> 1.) Engine terminal location. How does the track get to it?
> Diamonding the curve?
I haven't decided that yet. Possibly a spur off the looop, or a diamond.
> 2.) The grey track thing makes no sense.
I need to do a bit more work on the switches, and check the grades etc to determine where they meet, but the plan is somewhere close to the duckunder.
Here's a rough description. You start out at the staging yard, climbing up to the visible level. That continues to climb, on a small grade until the station area, which is level.
As you leave the station, if you're on the loop, the track dives down at a 2.5% or so grade, to connect back into itself. Meanwhile the two outer tracks climb up at about 2.5% grade to cross over the loop.
> 4.) Why not forget about the turntable?
Because I like Steam, remember? Steam looks best with turntables and roundhouses.
> Diamonding the curve?
I haven't decided that yet. Possibly a spur off the looop, or a diamond.
> 2.) The grey track thing makes no sense.
I need to do a bit more work on the switches, and check the grades etc to determine where they meet, but the plan is somewhere close to the duckunder.
Here's a rough description. You start out at the staging yard, climbing up to the visible level. That continues to climb, on a small grade until the station area, which is level.
As you leave the station, if you're on the loop, the track dives down at a 2.5% or so grade, to connect back into itself. Meanwhile the two outer tracks climb up at about 2.5% grade to cross over the loop.
> 4.) Why not forget about the turntable?
Because I like Steam, remember? Steam looks best with turntables and roundhouses.
Done very quickly and only a rough approximation, this is how I picture the connection betwen the upper and lower sections working. The two outer tracks are going down to staging while the two inner tracks are climbing up to make a complete loop. It may be further to the left, depending on how the grades work out. I don't want the grade to be too steep.
