D&J RailRoad
Professor of HO
Heres an option for those who think the detailed locos are to expensive.
N
NP2626
Guest
Nice! Not necessarily levity; but, it does show you can be critical of others!
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D&J RailRoad
Professor of HO
Wellll, it's easier to build than circuit boards and drive trains.
Boris
Beach Bum
Terry: It is worth what people are willing to pay for it. Not a Penny More.
All of the cancelled projects we continually read about, reflect something that enough people were not willing to buy at that price point. In a free market society, I get to make the choice, and I really don't care how much money the importer / manufacturer has invested in the project. It's not my problem.
Remember, as soon as the UPS man delivers the model to my doorstep, and I open the model and try it out on the layout, its value depreciates to Zero, unless I can find a buyer on a secondary market. Then it appreciates to what ever price the secondary buyer is willing to pay.
FWIW: I do not buy anything that doesn't fit in with my modeling interest or theme. I also don't buy products that meet my criteria, but exceed the price point I'm willing to pay. Examples include BLI's P5, Concor MP54E MU cars, and Walthers Metroliner cars. All were all priced out of my comfort zone, although they were in my interest.
Boris
Genetk44
Active Member
“..have a lack of understanding of those who feel that the prices are too high” ...I understand that those who feel that prices are too high ultimately fall into two distinct categories....those who are just cheap and those who just cannot afford something due to fading income,low income etc. I have no idea which you are Mark. D. but I do know that there is always,on a daily basis, somebody willing to complain that the price of something, be it a soda or a one-off scale model is too expensive.
Boris
Beach Bum
Gene: Not for nothing, some of the loudest complainers are those who are manufacturers or importers. They complain about their fixed cost, and how difficult it is to make a profit in these trying times. Yet they pass along these increased costs as part of their price per item, and try and maximize their profit. They don't care that their consumers also have increasing fixed costs, but are unable to pass along their price increases to anyone.
I retired ten years ago, during that period of time, the cost of consumer and durable goods have increased at a higher rate than my retirement income. Fixed costs, utilities, taxes, fees and insurance premiums have increased at a rate greater than my retirement income. Now ten years after, I have to cut costs to stay even, so I take a hard look at every purchase and look for the cheapest price. What is wrong with that? The prices of some items increase simply because the supplier "can" raise the price. The only thing I can do is complain when it comes to necessities, but not buy when it comes to discretionary purchases. That's economic reality.
Boris
N
NP2626
Guest
This is getting out of hand. My financial situation is none of your damn business! Since when is it against the rules here, to mention high prices and what we think about them?
I will tell you that I would go back to when the Athearn Blue Box kits and MDC Roundhouse kits where the standard, in a New York Minute, if I could! This would be before Horizon Hobbies bought those companies and propped there prices up to where they are today! You think the market is so great today, that's wonderful and I'm happy for you!
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Greg@mnrr
Section Hand
It's a hobby and I purchase what I want and when I want it, all within reason...I don't waste money, but I know I can't take it with me when the time comes.
John Allen was once quoted that the hobby daily cost was equal to the cost of a one pack of cigarettes. Okay back in 1973, a pack of cigarettes cost maybe 35 cents. Today, I see single packs of cigarettes advertised at over $7.00 a pack. In around 1982 I purchased Linn Westcott's, Modeling With John Allen for $21.95, I found this book new being sold on Amazon for $119.99, a collector's version even more expensive.
I guess I better take good care of my copy.
Greg
John Allen was once quoted that the hobby daily cost was equal to the cost of a one pack of cigarettes. Okay back in 1973, a pack of cigarettes cost maybe 35 cents. Today, I see single packs of cigarettes advertised at over $7.00 a pack. In around 1982 I purchased Linn Westcott's, Modeling With John Allen for $21.95, I found this book new being sold on Amazon for $119.99, a collector's version even more expensive.
I guess I better take good care of my copy.
Greg
Genetk44
Active Member
Mark D. I never inquired about your financial situation nor do I care about it or even want to know about it.
Boris...being on a fixed income is what it is and we make rational decisions about our spending based on that, all perfectly sensible.
I refuse to pay $40-$50+ dollars for freight cars and dcc sound-equipped locos at $250.00+ are my absolute limit, and very rarely at that. I have no idea what a new DCC sound equipped Sw1200 costs Rapido to manufacture and I have no intention of speculating on what that cost might be. It’s the best of US style free-market capitalism...we can can choose to buy or not as our hearts and wallets desire
Boris...being on a fixed income is what it is and we make rational decisions about our spending based on that, all perfectly sensible.
I refuse to pay $40-$50+ dollars for freight cars and dcc sound-equipped locos at $250.00+ are my absolute limit, and very rarely at that. I have no idea what a new DCC sound equipped Sw1200 costs Rapido to manufacture and I have no intention of speculating on what that cost might be. It’s the best of US style free-market capitalism...we can can choose to buy or not as our hearts and wallets desire
N
NP2626
Guest
And, isn't this exactly what I was aluding too?
N
NP2626
Guest
I guess I should stop asking what people think about things. In reality it doesn't change my mind about anything and it always seems to promote people voicing their opinions, which they always feel are right and only ones! We all have opinions, just like we all have A. Holes. In the end it makes very little difference to anyone.
Selector
Well-Known Member
...that's truly reprehensible. Imagine, a person running a business that wants to maximize profits!! Tsk!! The gall!!! Imagine wanting to ensure he retains his business, retains trained employees, and has enough left over to tool yet ANOTHER locomotive hundreds say they want. Tsk!! Oh, the 'greed'!
Now I suspect you're just being funny. If you had ever run a business, you'd not only care about your customers, but you'd CATER TO THEM! What a novel concept, huh? You'd provide something they're willing to pay for. You're not willing to pay some prices, I get that, but it means yo' ain't no customer for the locomotives the rest of us ARE customers for. Simple....no? Tell me, do you own a $2000 brass locomotive? Nope, you don't. But I own a $1100 brass Sunset steamer. Was I mistaken, or just a fool in your eyes? Who has that lovely locomotive....again? And who elected not to purchase one? Ain't it GREAT being in a democracy?
Look, this is s..t simple; I make a $400K car, market it, and somebody buys it. I don't make a red cent, but at least I didn't lose money. Good. What skin is it off your nose? I suspect you'd be outraged that I don't sell it to you (at a substantial loss) for the same price as you'd be willing to pay for a used Volkswagen because the price isn't what you're willing to pay. I OWE you to sell that car at a price YOU decide is fair. On what planet does that work? On my planet, I add $200K to the price of the car, make 2000 of them, only, and it may take two years to sell them all, but they'll all sell eventually. Just not to you.
Yeah, by now I get it: grocers, car dealers, banks, the newspaper business, your utilities, they're all a bunch of crooks. They keep dipping into your savings or pension, and fail to understand that you're owed happiness, riches, and all the trains you want at the price you're willing to pay.
Selector
Well-Known Member
True, Mark, neither they nor you. But, we can keep discussing ideas, including these ideas, in an effort to make bridges and to understand each other's position. As long at we remain civil, and constructive, there's really no reason to stop having such discussions. But, if our minds are made up, as seems to be the case here, there's little point. But, I don't get the notion that the hobby importers owe better prices to EVERYONE. They simply don't. This hobby, like all non-essentials, is entirely discretionary, and that includes what each of us is willing to pay. As my grandfather said, many decades ago when they'd just had a phone installed in their northern Ontario home, when my father, a young boy, wanted to call a friend and didn't have the courage to use the new device,
"Son, when you want to make that call badly enough, you'll make it yourself."
It's exactly the same with coughing up the dough for a highly desired locomotive, turntable, kit, or bag of spackle.
Genetk44
Active Member
Not quite...you were alluding to the “unscrupulous manufacturers are ripping us off with unjustifiablely inflated prices and mdellers willing to pay those prices are encouraging them” argument...ie: you were labelling the manufacturers....I wasn’t...see the diffrence?
Boris
Beach Bum
Crandell: That's a predictable, knee jerk reply. Did it come from your trade association? Business, especially small business is beyond reproach, after all they take risks and put up capital to bring us these valuable products. Any thought to the contrary is disrespectful.
Look at it this way, in every transaction, there are two parties, the seller and the buyer. It's a competition to see who comes out on top. The consumer, is expected to pay the asking price, without complaint and the seller, is insulted if the consumer asks him for a better deal. Is that the way it' supposed to work? I should be willing to spend my savings and pension just to keep the economy moving?
[QUOTE="Selector, post: 452049, member: 319"]Now I suspect you're just being funny. If you had ever run a business, you'd not only care about your customers, but you'd CATER TO THEM! What a novel concept, huh? You'd provide something they're willing to pay for.
Obviously, you have never dealt with small business in New Jersey or New York.
You're not willing to pay some prices, I get that, but it means yo' ain't no customer for the locomotives the rest of us ARE customers for. Simple....no? Tell me, do you own a $2000 brass locomotive? Nope, you don't. But I own a $1100 brass Sunset steamer. Was I mistaken, or just a fool in your eyes? Who has that lovely locomotive....again? And who elected not to purchase one?[at/QUOTE]
Actually, I did once own a few brass steam locomotives, back when prices were not that high, but I sold them long before the price of brass went out of sight. I personally don't care what you do with your money, but does not owning a brass locomotive make me less of a model railroader? Does owning brass make you more of an elitist? FWIW, There are a lot of better ways of investing money other than brass toys. As far as running a business, what does that have to do with anything? Maybe I should turn in my NMRA card, as a disgrace to the hobby. But wait, I already did that.
To keep things in perspective, the Model Railroad Fraternity, consists of X number of participants, including suppliers, dealers and consumers. Consumers are a diverse group ranging from Hi-railers, and garden railroaders to Z Scale. Not everyone shares the same philosophy or value things the same way. You are at liberty to do what you want, and spend what I want, but do not attempt to belittle me, because I disagree with your view.
Boris
Noah_Count
New Member
For one thing, there are different types of model railroad manufacturers and vendors. I can sympathize with the fellow little guy having to charge a premium price for a rare limited run item. I cannot sympathize with a corporation like Horizon Hobbies charging what they do for models and the people who try to defend it as "the cost of doing business". No, let's cut to the chase and call that what it is, corporate greed! The inescapable fact is that we all pay inflated prices for many goods and services because of that simple reason. My smartphone example still stands, there is no justification for the fruit logo company to charge 1500 dollars for one. It might, might being the keyword, cost a quarter of that to produce and frankly I think it's less than that. The funny thing is, there 700 dollar one is a better phone.
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D&J RailRoad
Professor of HO
Are you sure about those numbers Noah? I think it would be a bit difficult doing an analysis of a corporate profit and loss on an organization the size of Horizon Hobbies.
I certainly wouldn't be throwing rocks at a business unless I knew for sure the inside details.
I certainly wouldn't be throwing rocks at a business unless I knew for sure the inside details.
DakotaLove39
Always Improvising
We can start with the fact that the Rapido model has tons of separately-applied parts, where the Blue-Box loco is a solid molded thing.
How about a different comparison. In front of me at this very moment is an Athearn RTR GP60B from 2006. These are found online anywhere from $50 to $100 without sound installed. You know what they are? A dressed-up Blue Box loco. The motor quality is better, but it's the same motor design. The trucks are almost identical, and most of the body is molded details with separately applied grab irons, fans and dynamic blister.
Would you say it's twice as good as the Blue-Box? I would. Though its lineage is obvious, it's a much better runner wearing a more attractive shell.
I've gotta be honest, I think you're being unfair. I say that because I have two Athearn locomotives that I purchased brand-new for $150 each which have SOUND. Decent sound at that in the form of a Soundtraxx Econami decoder. You find me any other manufacturer whose four and six-axle diesels can be had for $150 with a sound system installed. I guarantee it's very slim pickings. Walther's Mainline locos with sound are supposed to be $150 but everyone always marks them up for some reason.
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Selector
Well-Known Member
Boris, I have never belonged to a trade association. I was a Military Psychologist all my adult life. That and a teacher at university after I retired. My first statement you quoted was sarcastic. I know, I know, the lowest form of wit...
Nobody has forced you into toy trains. Nor, for that matter, into particular ones, including the ones out of your reach. The seller sets the price. He/she may negotiate, or discount eventually. But it's that person's purview, even to the point of losing her business. Or, just you as a potential customer.
My discussion about brass locomotives was meant to illustrate that we all make our own purchase decisions. Some can afford $2500 locomotives; I can't. But I do have a new Sunset brass steamer that was half that. I forewent other purchases. It doesn't make me elitist, better, more refined, more 'serious'; no, it makes me decisive, much like you are.
None of my hodge-podge of locomotives is an investment. They're toys. Most will be in landfills inside of 20 years.
If you feel belittled, that is also your choice, and I won't apologize for it. Again, we all make choices. As you say, the decisions of the customer and the seller have to overlap. If the seller can make a living without your custom, it's only bad for you if you desire his product and can't meet his prices. Vive le choix.
Bruette
Well-Known Member
We can only speculate what will happen when we run out of third world people to exploit.
