crossover switch problem

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#1
I Have a shinohare double crossover code 100 switch in my layout but in is not ncc friendly engines stop when half way thru the switch. Is there a fix for this? thanks for any help. lm a retired newbe to this. Bulldog
 

Rico

BN Modeller
#2
At the risk of sounding like a smart ass the best way to fix them is to pull them out and use two separate crossovers. ;)Even the prototype doesn’t like double Xings and use them only when absolutely necessary.
There are people that have used them successfully but they’re outnumbered by those who had issues.
I’m sure someone will chime in with an actual solution.
 

MHinLA

Active Member
#3
In my now torn down layout I had a Shino 3 way switch which did this too.. It's the close tolerances through the guard rails, open point-side, and frog.
The metal loco wheel causes a short by bridging a + current to a - current in these complex areas and loco stalls.. I've tried putting small slivers of masking tape right on one rail at these stall places..works sometimes. But try this instead: Run loco slowly thru the trackwork. Using a bright flashlight to spot what wheel(s) is making this bridge, while keeping your eye on the tiny area, lift off the loco, mark rail with a pencil then apply a dab or two of enamel paint right on top and sides of the rail (the web)..Hopefully it will act as an insulator. Use any color.. Chrome or silver will blend in as part of the rail...
It's a long (or should I say 'short' shot )..Good luck..
BTW What is 'ncc' ? I think you mean to say either DCC (digital command control) or perhaps, NCE (North Coast Engineering). No ? M
 

beiland

Well-Known Member
#4
I started an extensive subject thread on this matter over here,..

Double-Crossover Dissection, and particularly Shinohara
https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/36467

Be careful if you experiment with running a loco thru this turnout slowly,..you could experience a short that will damage the loco. This can be avoided if all the turnouts are thrown at one time, to either crossing, or to not-crossing.

There is a lot of other interesting material in there.

I may have also contributed a lot of the info on this forum (do a search), but I'm not sure how complete it is. Just found it,..
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/double-crossover-dissection-particularly-shinohara.31371/#post-456534
 
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MHinLA

Active Member
#5
beiland, in DCC it's not likely a short will damage the loco as whole layout or segregated district will, via throttle circuit breaker, quickly shut down. Soon as loco is removed or pushed a bit, power comes back on..
 

beiland

Well-Known Member
#6
I was performing my little testing of those crossovers with straight DC, and when the short occurred it smoked the dual mode DCC board that existed in that Bachmann 4-8-4 as a stock installation.
 

MHinLA

Active Member
#7
beiland, I think the DC didn't shut down soon enough is why it smoked. I may be wrong, but I believe DCC shuts down extremely fast when shorted, and analog DC is somewhat slower to shut down, which could be why it smoked..
 
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montanan

Whiskey Merchant
#8
I have 2 Shinohara double crossovers on my layout. (code 70) My layout is DC and I never had problems with the crossovers until I ran a DCC locomotive over them. Going straight through there was no problem, but when crossing over the the parallel track, I would some times get a short. What I did that cured this problem was to use some clear nail polish to widen the gap that insulated the rails. Didn't take much. Maybe an eighth of an in total did the trick. Don't know why only DCC locomotives shorted out and not the DC ones.
 

tootnkumin

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#10
beiland, in DCC it's not likely a short will damage the loco as whole layout or segregated district will, via throttle circuit breaker, quickly shut down. Soon as loco is removed or pushed a bit, power comes back on..
If it's NCE, the built in circuit breaker will make and break till the short is fixed.
 

tootnkumin

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#11
I have 2 Shinohara double crossovers on my layout. (code 70) My layout is DC and I never had problems with the crossovers until I ran a DCC locomotive over them. Going straight through there was no problem, but when crossing over the the parallel track, I would some times get a short. What I did that cured this problem was to use some clear nail polish to widen the gap that insulated the rails. Didn't take much. Maybe an eighth of an in total did the trick. Don't know why only DCC locomotives shorted out and not the DC ones.
It will depend on the speed of the circuit breaker, DCC ones are usually very quick, to protect all of the circuitry. See my response above.
 

tootnkumin

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#12
On my club's layout, which was originally DC only, they used the old 3 auto bulb method, which "browns out" the power to the rails. Since incorporating DCC as an alternative power and control, they have retained that system. It means that it doesn't shut off the power totally, only lowers the voltage to the tracks. I have remonstrated (suggested really) with the club electrician about the risk to the DCC system (much more expensive to replace, let alone everybodies decoders of the bulb arrangement. The irony is, as I mentioned, with the NCE system we use, it works in a virtually identical fashion, but with better system/decoder protection. I had the experience last week (not the first time) of someone else having a derailment/short that flickered the bulbs and jerked my multi consisted engines. The result being that they got thrown into a phantom or garbled consist from which every decoder has to have it's consisting CV19 reset to 0. Unfortunately, this didn't work this time, as there were 4 locos involved and I had to wait till I got home and could use my base station to achieve it. Took 2 attempts with 2 of the engines to get them back. The price of club membership.

That system did cause some damage to two MTH 60' flat cars also some time ago. They have all metal trucks (sprung bolsters), metal wheels (1 end only insulated) and metal axles. Some (many) of the axle's insulators have been fitted to opposite sides, resulting in a direct short, through the trucks, diagonally, which, even though all 3 bulbs were brightly lit, were heating up. All wheels were on the tracks, so it wasn't till I picked one car up and put my finger on a truck that was hot (burning) that I realised what was happening. Damage was fortunately minor, just some slight melting of the plastic around the truck pivot, but as they too are metal and joined together through the base of the car, could have destroyed it, if left too long.

So, my message is. If using DCC on your layout, rely on the systems inbuilt circuit breaker, or it it's big enough to need power districts and additional boosters, maybe look at additional ones. Don't use bulbs.
 

tootnkumin

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#13
Oh yes, I forgot to mention also. 2 engines were immobile and unresponsive, the other 2 were unresposive too, but still working at speed with the power on to the track. The radio cab's speed reading was stuck at 49 steps and wouldn't respond to throttle or button control to cancel it. Only removing the batteries fixed that and the locos as well. Thank goodness.
 

MHinLA

Active Member
#14
HOLD THE PHONE ! I just got this idea to stave off these short outs/stall outs. I wonder if we can paint the sides of loco wheels(tender wheels with pickup) with a clear, gray, brown, black insulating substance (Maybe whitewalls on steam could serve as such) ! Maybe simple enamel paint..
Just for looks I do paint the 4 insulators at all-live switch frogs, with chrome enamel to hide them, and it does not wear away !
 



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