Criticism towards fellow model railroaders.
- Thread starter chessie_system3
- Start date
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NP2626
Guest
The above nastiness reminds me of a guy who was a regular respondent at the Model Railroader Magazine Forum. He is a professional Layout Designer, who is in the business of designing layouts for model railroaders who lack the ability to do so for themselves. His name is Byron Henderson and almost every year that Model Railroader has published Model Railroad Planing, Mr. Henderson has a design discussed in this annual magazine. He is a wonderful designer and his track plans are very well thought out and generally discuss a specific portion of a real railroad. This year his design was of the Southern Pacific's Shasta Division. I might even consider Mr. Henderson is a gifted track plan designer. However, he is one of the most arrogant and caustic people I have ever run across in a model railroading forum! That he can be this way, when he is supposed to be enticing people to hire him to design a layout for them while he denigrates the very people he wants as customers, is an amazingly stupid way to run a business!
goscrewyourselves
I'm the one
NP2626,
Thanks for posting the comment left. NOW I would definitely like to see his work!
There is always going to be one or two people like this but, as was mentioned I think, are pretty much in the minority and need to be treated with the contempt they deserve. I haven't watched the video (download quota issues) but that isn't really necessary anyway.
Even IF what he said was true - so what! Not his layout, not his problem, not his concern.
I love you guys ( group hug)
Now we are going from the sublime to the ridiculous
chessie_system3
Well-Known Member
Perhaps he feels his arrogance is what draws in customers? Like I'm so good. Your layout sucks so you should pay me to design your layout.
Justin
Justin
N
NP2626
Guest
Could be! However, I generally would rather do business with someone who isn't attempting to make me look like a moron!
goscrewyourselves
I'm the one
I might have been a little unlucky; however, I have used a "professional designer" thinking that I would get the "B" all and "end all" of track plans. Paid the guy the money, gave him my wants and don't wants for the layout and got a design that incorporated more of the don't wants than the wants. After quite a few "back and forth discussions" it came down to this: HE thought the layout needed what HE had included. Bottom line, he designed the track plan that HE wanted and not what the customer (me) wanted. After that and from what Mark posted, I'd never use another so called professional designer again.
As for that guys arrogance, lets be honest here - you are going to be/have a streak of arrogance if you charge people to design a layout. I am assuming that to offer such a service, you would have to think that you were the "be all and end all" of track planning to a certain point.
N
NP2626
Guest
Was this the designer I described above?
I was in business for myself for 31 years and was in "I work for a living" life for 50 years. I was a believer in the: "Customer is always right" philosophy and some of that time my customer was my boss. I retired at 62 and am living a good life now. So that "philosophy" worked for me!
goscrewyourselves
I'm the one
Mark,
No I don't think so, it was over 12 months ago that I tried using one. Still have his plans around here some where for posterity sake
Once upon a time the principle of the customer is always right was appropriate because business' (in the main) were integral. Now a days, I'm not so sure.
I guess the point of my mentioning what I did was, this person (like the jerk in the video) was putting his wants and what he thought was right before the wants of me. What he did was great and was impressive, I'm not by any means questioning his ability, just his failure to do as I asked regardless of whether it was realistic or not. He put his ideas of what was right ahead of mine, just like the jerk in the video.
No I don't think so, it was over 12 months ago that I tried using one. Still have his plans around here some where for posterity sake
Once upon a time the principle of the customer is always right was appropriate because business' (in the main) were integral. Now a days, I'm not so sure.
I guess the point of my mentioning what I did was, this person (like the jerk in the video) was putting his wants and what he thought was right before the wants of me. What he did was great and was impressive, I'm not by any means questioning his ability, just his failure to do as I asked regardless of whether it was realistic or not. He put his ideas of what was right ahead of mine, just like the jerk in the video.
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
I would never criticise anothers work. We all started out at the beginning. Perhaps a small shelf layout or a 4x8 oval. There is a learning curve. As someone works on their layout, things are learned. Nobody knows everything right from the start. Some people also have more room than others which can sometimes limit what can be done in a smaller space.
There is also the talents that people may or may not have. For instance, I am not an artist and have a hard time drawing stick figures while others can paint outstanding back drops. There is quite a learning curve in the hobby also. When I started my layout, I had no idea of how to use an air brush, let alone doing custom painting. Over time, I learned how to do this. It didn't come quickly and there were failures. Over time I managed to grasp the art and am happy with what I was able to do.
Detailing a layout is an art. Take layouts like George Sellios Franklin & South Manchester or Allen McClellands V&O just as an example. Outstanding work. I don't think I would ever have the skill or patience to do work like was done on the F&SM. I'll give it my best shot, but will probably never be able to get close.
Detailing locomotives and rolling stock is another challenge. I have done this type of work and I am happy at what I was able to do. It's my railroad and I am the one I am trying to please. I have seen some excellent weathering done on both locomotives and rolling stock. Some of the work is beyone my skills, but I am also happy with the way my stuff looks.
We all learn and increase our skills over time, and put these skills to work on our layouts. I have older parts of my layout that I know I can improve and this will be done over time.
There is also the talents that people may or may not have. For instance, I am not an artist and have a hard time drawing stick figures while others can paint outstanding back drops. There is quite a learning curve in the hobby also. When I started my layout, I had no idea of how to use an air brush, let alone doing custom painting. Over time, I learned how to do this. It didn't come quickly and there were failures. Over time I managed to grasp the art and am happy with what I was able to do.
Detailing a layout is an art. Take layouts like George Sellios Franklin & South Manchester or Allen McClellands V&O just as an example. Outstanding work. I don't think I would ever have the skill or patience to do work like was done on the F&SM. I'll give it my best shot, but will probably never be able to get close.
Detailing locomotives and rolling stock is another challenge. I have done this type of work and I am happy at what I was able to do. It's my railroad and I am the one I am trying to please. I have seen some excellent weathering done on both locomotives and rolling stock. Some of the work is beyone my skills, but I am also happy with the way my stuff looks.
We all learn and increase our skills over time, and put these skills to work on our layouts. I have older parts of my layout that I know I can improve and this will be done over time.
goscrewyourselves
I'm the one
Chet,
This hobby does have a learning curve attached to it as there are so many different elements to it. Painting, building, construction, soldering, wiring, electrical so forth and so on. Other than perhaps construction (bench work) everything else was new to me when I started and had to be learnt, and some is still being learnt. My first attempts at virtually everything were (in hindsight) appalling and that is based on what I can do now, not based on others work. I now can do some things fairly well but still struggle with other aspects of the hobby and I know there are many people who do everything a damn sight better than I.
Part of that learning curve was "asking questions" and being accepting of constructive and helpful criticism/advice.
I'll always, when and where I can, offer constructive criticism to some one IF it has been asked for. I'd also never be derogatory toward anothers layout or anything they have done.
Bottom line is no one is an expert and everyone can continue to learn and to improve IF they choose to do so. As has been said all too many times, our layouts are ours and if we are happy with them, then that is all that matters.
That's a very good point and one that sometimes gets forgotten by some. No one was born an expert and no one woke up one morning an expert.
This hobby does have a learning curve attached to it as there are so many different elements to it. Painting, building, construction, soldering, wiring, electrical so forth and so on. Other than perhaps construction (bench work) everything else was new to me when I started and had to be learnt, and some is still being learnt. My first attempts at virtually everything were (in hindsight) appalling and that is based on what I can do now, not based on others work. I now can do some things fairly well but still struggle with other aspects of the hobby and I know there are many people who do everything a damn sight better than I.
Part of that learning curve was "asking questions" and being accepting of constructive and helpful criticism/advice.
I'll always, when and where I can, offer constructive criticism to some one IF it has been asked for. I'd also never be derogatory toward anothers layout or anything they have done.
Bottom line is no one is an expert and everyone can continue to learn and to improve IF they choose to do so. As has been said all too many times, our layouts are ours and if we are happy with them, then that is all that matters.
N
NP2626
Guest
I think that to infer that the guy criticizing the builder of the subject layout was within his rights to do so, is an injustice to us all. Mankind has, for as long as we have walked upright, been horrible to each other. It continues today as seen in the comments on the video and by what King Assad in Syria is doing to his own people! It is our inability to be empathetic to one another!
Pastor DeSchane has left the building!
Pastor DeSchane has left the building!
Last edited by a moderator:
railBuilderDhd
Active Member
It's so sad but true there are A-holes all over this world. Even in model railroading. I'm just glad that there aren't any I know. I have meat some who think they are better and I just stay away from them. I will tell someone what I think if asked and it will be "my thoughts" here as I hope all realize I'm giving my opinion to help if I can only.
Well, I hope the layout owner on in that video is not letting the BS bother them. I wouldn't!
Dave
Well, I hope the layout owner on in that video is not letting the BS bother them. I wouldn't!
Dave
railBuilderDhd
Active Member
Tony, Kevin, and many here have given me a lot of help. I try to do the same when I can. The one thing I think is missing is the old saying "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." Now, you can give comments to help as long as those you are dealing with know what you are saying to keep from getting into a discussion like this. I enjoy this forum because the folks here are willing and helpful. I hope people here don't stop sharing thoughts, ideas and pictures of their work. Remember what's been said, it's your hobby and there is no wrong way to enjoy it. Your results may not appeal to all but don't worry about the others. I see many things on the web from modelers I may not want to model or like but I can still learn from them and enjoy what they have done for themselves.
OK, I'm done!
Dave
goscrewyourselves
I'm the one
Dave,
First off, thank you I appreciate the recognition even though it isn't needed. I think what you have said epitomizes the way I consider forums and how they should be. However, and unfortunately, there is always a small group of people who seem to enjoy nothing better than to demean what others have done or said and that applies to all forums and all forum types.
As has been innumerable times, I am here to learn, to gain experience, to improve what skills I have AND, if I can, pass on some advice and help to those who ask for it and very little more than that.
As you also pointed out, there are some things that I have seen done by others that I don't particularly like or would do on my layout; however, I always try to appreciate the work and the time and the effort they have put into what they have done.
I think a good example of how people should "behave" (if you like) in forums is this, and I hope Lynn B wont mind my using him as the example. I like double track work on my layouts while Lynn B doesn't, he is a single track kinda guy. Despite our different approaches to a layout we both acknowledge the others work and the fact that it is what we both want and like. Lynn B once told me up front that he didn't a track plan I had proposed as it was double track BUT qualified the comment with other positive things. The point is that even though he and I have very different ideas and thoughts regarding our layouts, we both appreciate (I hope) what the other has done and still help each other out where we can.
I know there are others who have done the same where I am concerned at least, such as Horseman for example who likes industry and spur track and so forth where I'm not such a big fan of them. None the less we agree to disagree and accept what the other has done without prejudice.
I feel confident that the majority of people in this hobby are like minded, perhaps that is as a result of age/maturity or simply because that is the way we/they are.
If everyone could be that respectful and considerate, threads such as this would not exist.
First off, thank you I appreciate the recognition even though it isn't needed. I think what you have said epitomizes the way I consider forums and how they should be. However, and unfortunately, there is always a small group of people who seem to enjoy nothing better than to demean what others have done or said and that applies to all forums and all forum types.
As has been innumerable times, I am here to learn, to gain experience, to improve what skills I have AND, if I can, pass on some advice and help to those who ask for it and very little more than that.
As you also pointed out, there are some things that I have seen done by others that I don't particularly like or would do on my layout; however, I always try to appreciate the work and the time and the effort they have put into what they have done.
I think a good example of how people should "behave" (if you like) in forums is this, and I hope Lynn B wont mind my using him as the example. I like double track work on my layouts while Lynn B doesn't, he is a single track kinda guy. Despite our different approaches to a layout we both acknowledge the others work and the fact that it is what we both want and like. Lynn B once told me up front that he didn't a track plan I had proposed as it was double track BUT qualified the comment with other positive things. The point is that even though he and I have very different ideas and thoughts regarding our layouts, we both appreciate (I hope) what the other has done and still help each other out where we can.
I know there are others who have done the same where I am concerned at least, such as Horseman for example who likes industry and spur track and so forth where I'm not such a big fan of them. None the less we agree to disagree and accept what the other has done without prejudice.
I feel confident that the majority of people in this hobby are like minded, perhaps that is as a result of age/maturity or simply because that is the way we/they are.
If everyone could be that respectful and considerate, threads such as this would not exist.
trailrider
Well-Known Member
The only thing "wrong" with the layout in the video is that his trains are running without waycars (cabooses to non-CB&Q'ers). Now that is jest agin the laws of nature? But then, again, when I run some "modern" trains (for kids who have never seen a caboose on a freight train), I do have one car with an EOT device. Of course, I'm kidding. I probably have a bunch of stuff on my layout that somebody can criticize. Anybody that doesn't like it is free to come over and help me "correct" the discrepancies! (One of these days I MAY get around to ballasting my track that rests on cork roadbed. Never have on four different layouts!) It is too bad that people can't be civil, especially when their comments are broadcast all over the world! Why don't I post pictures of my layout? Not sure how to do it. Anyway, that video shows a GREAT layout. I'll be the owner has FUN with it. Anybody that wants to have an "irrigation contest" needs to go somewhere else to do it!
But then, again, when I run some "modern" trains (for kids who have never seen a caboose on a freight train), I do have one car with an EOT device. Of course, I'm kidding. I probably have a bunch of stuff on my layout that somebody can criticize. Anybody that doesn't like it is free to come over and help me "correct" the discrepancies! (One of these days I MAY get around to ballasting my track that rests on cork roadbed. Never have on four different layouts!) It is too bad that people can't be civil, especially when their comments are broadcast all over the world! Why don't I post pictures of my layout? Not sure how to do it. Anyway, that video shows a GREAT layout. I'll be the owner has FUN with it. Anybody that wants to have an "irrigation contest" needs to go somewhere else to do it!
goscrewyourselves
I'm the one
trailrider,
WHAT? Shame on you ... shame! Obviously your not a REAL model railway modeler!
Can't say I blame you though, ballasting can be a real pain in the posterior. To be honest, I first ballasted my track, not for realism, but to hide the number of holes, wires and screw ups I made. After that, it gave me something to do while I was waiting for something else to do ...
It isn't hard, especially if you have a third party host like (as an example) imagur. Take a pic of your layout, building, engine etc upload it to it imagur, click on the forums link thingy and paste that link into your post and as if by magic - your pic/s appear within the post
Couldn't agree more!
WHAT? Shame on you ... shame! Obviously your not a REAL model railway modeler!
Can't say I blame you though, ballasting can be a real pain in the posterior. To be honest, I first ballasted my track, not for realism, but to hide the number of holes, wires and screw ups I made. After that, it gave me something to do while I was waiting for something else to do ...
It isn't hard, especially if you have a third party host like (as an example) imagur. Take a pic of your layout, building, engine etc upload it to it imagur, click on the forums link thingy and paste that link into your post and as if by magic - your pic/s appear within the post
Couldn't agree more!
goscrewyourselves
I'm the one
Trailrider,
Take a look here and see if this is any help:
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/...sting-pictures-with-Imgur&p=468660#post468660
Okay back to the thread at hand ....
Take a look here and see if this is any help:
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/...sting-pictures-with-Imgur&p=468660#post468660
Okay back to the thread at hand ....
Boris
Beach Bum
Back around 1961, I bought my first two Athearn Blue Box (Plastic) kits. Some of y'all may remember that the fully sprung trucks came unassembled. I went back to the LHS, where I purchased them hoping to find the secret to keeping the springs from flying all over the room, and purchasing the tool etc., plus some replacement springs. The response I received from the counter person was almost verbatim to what is quoted above.
Clearly, some people were professionally reluctant to share information back then also, and substituted put downs instead. Or, perhaps, the counter person didn't know either, and was not about to admit it.
goscrewyourselves
I'm the one
Ahh you do realize what I said was in jest and being obviously sarcastic right? Just wondering as the smiley was left out of the quote and wouldn't want anyone thinking I was serious.
As for the "counter person" you encountered, what can be said. People who refuse to share info really need to take a step backwards (a long way backwards) look in the mirror (a full body one) and ask themselves how they accumulated THEIR information and knowledge. Presumably not from asking questions, reading books, forum posts etc etc etc or from any other source. If they did then that would mean that they got info from someone willing to share it. Kind of makes them a little hypocritical in my opinion.
As for the "counter person" you encountered, what can be said. People who refuse to share info really need to take a step backwards (a long way backwards) look in the mirror (a full body one) and ask themselves how they accumulated THEIR information and knowledge. Presumably not from asking questions, reading books, forum posts etc etc etc or from any other source. If they did then that would mean that they got info from someone willing to share it. Kind of makes them a little hypocritical in my opinion.
oplholik
Member
Boy, the folks that would criticize just to be criticizing will have a field day with my MRR. Just an oval that really does nothing but goes roundy, roundy on one level, with at some point some inner track. I just hope to make the scenery look interesting enough to detract from the roundy, roundy a little bit.
I remember as a kid, seeing the long freights with PFE boxcars, loved em for some reason, and my modern day rr will have plenty of those in tow.
But hey, it's my rr, and I can do what I want.
I remember as a kid, seeing the long freights with PFE boxcars, loved em for some reason, and my modern day rr will have plenty of those in tow.
But hey, it's my rr, and I can do what I want.
