Criticism towards fellow model railroaders.


Christ! - You guys have me thinking that I better keep my mouth shut more!
Sometimes I may give someone the wrong impression when mainly I might be "poking fun" at something, or someone, to illicit a responce.
We all have "our" own way of doing things ... I shall watch myself closer. - Sorry, Justin! I hope that you realize that I have been funnin you about the white coats?
 
Christ! - You guys have me thinking that I better keep my mouth shut more!
Sometimes I may give someone the wrong impression when mainly I might be "poking fun" at something, or someone, to illicit a responce.
We all have "our" own way of doing things ... I shall watch myself closer. - Sorry, Justin! I hope that you realize that I have been funnin you about the white coats?
That's why I use "smileys".:cool:
Willie
 
Christ! - You guys have me thinking that I better keep my mouth shut more!
Sometimes I may give someone the wrong impression when mainly I might be "poking fun" at something, or someone, to illicit a responce.
We all have "our" own way of doing things ... I shall watch myself closer. - Sorry, Justin! I hope that you realize that I have been funnin you about the white coats?
Lol no need to apologize. I ran with the white coats and straight jacket. I thought I was going to have a meltdown anyways.

Justin
 
For some reason I still can't get those comments to display but no matter, obviously from the other comments what was said was not called for and those sort of people are going to exist no matter the hobby or the place.

As someone mentioned earlier, the best response to such comments is something along the lines of - "if you can do better then great, show us" and leave it at that and ignore the individual from that point on. I'll bet that 9 times out of 10, they'll never respond with what they can do.

A lot of people in this hobby, as well as others, regularly ask for "help" with something or ask for what they have to be given the once over and suggestions for how it can (if it can) be improved ... it's part of the learning curve with anything new. One problem I have seen is where people simply say ... well that is pretty poor ... and leave it at that. Any form of criticism has to be supported with why it is poor and suggestions for how to make it better.

I think there are 2 basic groups of people in any hobby where advice is being sought:

ones who are new and who genuinely want to learn and accept the help (constructive criticism) they are given
ones who ask for help/advise but only want positive responses and pats on the back

I also think there are 2 groups of people who respond

those who are genuinely trying to help the person and will do so appropriately and with solutions
and the ones that simply argue and are negative for no other reason than to argue and be negative

Seems to me, from what has been said, the individual whose comment regarding the video is offensive falls into the last category and isn't worth worrying about.
 
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The best reply to comments like the first is: "Okay, let's see a video of your layout!"

Unfortunately, it is also what is known as an ad hominem. Ad hominem means 'taking it to the man." It's one of a long list of informal fallacies in rhetoric. It falls under the broader category of fallacies of relevance. Whether or not I am a really great and famous modeler is irrelevant to my subjective assessment of your modeling. If I say your grass could stand to be higher, or fuller, in a scene, you would have to argue only that it suits you as it is...NOT ask the me to 'put up or shut up', because it's not about who is the better modeler, or even if I can make full(er) grass than you...it's about the fullness or tallness of the grass...only. So, to conclude, it SOUNDS like a great comeback, but it really isn't. It's an irrelevancy that should be kept to oneself.
 
Everything is relevant in accordance with the individuals requirements, likes and dislikes. What I like, you may not, what I consider to be good, you may not. That is true. In effect, it doesn't matter what you like or I like or bill blogs in the next country likes - it's what the individual likes. So really, any un asked for opinions about a layout are completely irrelevant to the person whose work is being opinionated on.

However, when (as does happen all too often) a person for the sake of sheer negativity criticizes anthers efforts WITHOUT supporting their criticism telling them to show they can do better is not an unreasonable response.

The whole point of being critical (constructively) is to point out errors, possible and or potential problems with something that has been done or simply a way that might improve what has been done. The only way a person can offer such advice or direction is for that person to be able to do that "thing" better OR has personal experience with the thing being criticized. IF they are offering legitimate constructive criticism, they will provide reasons or something to support their constructive criticism.

Most people who simply put anothers work down without offering and way of perhaps making it better often do so for no other reason than to be negative and, most likely, are incapable of doing that thing better or, perhaps, even as well. I'm sure you've heard the expression those who can do, those who can't teach.
 
** For those who never knew Jeffrey: He suffered from Type I diabetes and had no feeling (sense of touch) in his hands or feet, and lived on a fixed disability income. Yet he managed to do some great modeling in spite of these limitations, and was an inspiration to a lot of people as a result.
the thing is after Jeffery passed in dec 2014 I stopped coming here to this forum , honestly I haven't been active since then really but before I always looked forward to his take on frankendiesel stuff lol
I miss him :(
 
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I'm sort of re-thinking posting photos on these forums because of this conversation.

Mark,

There are two reasons I visit forums. The first is to get ideas for things I might want to do and the second to to share what knowledge I have. I am exceedingly good at a few things, including electronics (52 years) and using an airbrush (48 years). I also suck at quite a few things, including photography (which is why I rarely post photos). I have downloaded probably 2000 model railroad photos for ideas. I will, in all likelihood, end up using 5 or 6 for actual projects, but its fun to dream and plan. The point of all this is: please don't stop posting photos. I, for one, enjoy them all.
 
I'm with Kevin all the way. Like him, I am here for the same reasons as he and I too find inspiration in other peoples photos. This isn't a photographic forum so who really cares how good the actual photo is, it is what it shows that matters.

Truth be known, and don't take this the wrong way, genuine model railroaders most likely are apart of forums for the same reason as Kevin and I, to pass on knowledge, advice and offer help where they can or to learn more about the hobby and improve their own layouts and advance their skills.

Believe it or not but the hobby ISN'T a competition - it's a hobby; although after reading some posts on some forums you might be forgiven for thinking the opposite.
 
I can be a real pr**k and a complete a**hole in these forums when the discussion turns to politics or certain other social issues because I’m opinionated and always right;);););) But when it comes to modelling issues I can see no reason to be mean-spirited or criticize negativly. I either keep my mouth-shut or comment positively. I would only offer critical comments or advice when asked for it.
just my 2cents worth.

Gene
 
Tony - "...However, when (as does happen all too often) a person for the sake of sheer negativity criticizes anthers efforts WITHOUT supporting their criticism telling them to show they can do better is not an unreasonable response..."

It's just bad logic, Tony. Suppose he promptly posts evidence that he can and does do better....now what? Does it mean he is right, that you are wrong, or that he is a better modeler and he's still wrong? That is the nub of the criticism...it stands on its own merits, or it is easily defeated, examples of his own inferior or superior models notwithstanding. Let's try this out experimentally:

Me - "This is what I done." [posted image]

You - "It sucks. Join Jeffrey in the loser class."

Me - "What do you mean? Why does it suck?"

You - "'Cuz you're a crappy modeler. Say hi to Jeffrey for me." (Somebody on another forum where I was a moderator called him 'Jeffy", which was understandably not well received by Jeffrey or me. I ended up banning the guy permanently.")

Me - "Okay, if you're so hot (note that you made no such claim, only offered your opinion), why not post some pictures of what you can do."

You - "I'm just a house painter passing through on my lunch hour. I have never even held a model train. Take it from me, though, your modeling sucks. Big time. Later."

The offered opinion is just that. It must stand on its own or it is to be rejected....but not by asking the other person to show HIS OWN examples of modeling showing why my models suck...and his don't. He has never had any. All he submitted was the opinion. It should be rather simple to argue that his opinion is not correct, even if it's because I think my grass to be rather full and fluffy enough...thanks very much.

Let's complete the thought experiment:

"Ok, hot shot, let's see some examples of your grass."

[He posts three outstanding examples that make my jaw drop, and adds no comment]

"Ok, I guess you were right...mine sucks."

But does it? Is his jaw-dropping grass to be compared to mine? What if he posts Tony's examples of fantastic grass? Is Tony right or is the critic right? See...this is the trap. It's not that he can show his own, it's that he can show a substantially, and obviously, better result AT ALL. And this should be the basis for the ensuing discussion, not his examples.

"Wow, I guess I could really try to improve my grass. What did you/Tony do to get that great result?"

"I/Tony used a Noch grass thingie and it was worth every penny. Not every person has one, or can afford one...I guess."

"I can't afford one. But I do see that it could be very useful. Thanks for pointing out the better result for me."

"You're welcome. Look for discounts at ABC...they run them every six months or so. And keep filling out that grass. Now I gotta go back to painting walls. Bye."
 
Well, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree then. Me along with those others who feel the same as I do. Bottom line, if you've never done something - don't try and tell others how to do it or tell them what they've done is crap. If you have done it, show me what you done and if it is better then great, I might learn how to improve mine.
 
I gotta go with Wombat457's opinion. Logic or no, someone fires un-asked for negative waves at you it's time for stepping on some toes. However, the logic in me tells me it's best to ignore the jerk and simply press on. If I have one known week spot, it's my inability to Ignore JERKS. However, I am going to make a valiant attempt from here on out.
 
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Well, OK! You all have totally confused me; therefore, I shall just continue to be myself!
It's worked for 75 years! :)
BUT, If I may add ... I have enjoyed all of your comments on this subject.
 
Though not directly contained in Crandell's and Tony's responses, while reading, the thought occurred to me that part of this comes from the competitiveness of some modelers who as a matter of course dismiss anything not on their personal radar. For example, the fellows who participate in "ALL" of the prototype Modeler's events, and place their models on display or enter modeling contests. Another example would be the active NMRA modelers who achieve MMR status. Granted, these fellows put forth a lot of effort to develop world class reproductions of prototypes, or to earn the highest designation in our hobby. However, some develop elitist tendencies, and treat others, with different modeling goals, with disdain. But as I learned after spending time and money, one doesn't need an MBA, to operate a railroad locomotive. It's a different skill set altogether. This is a hobby, and not everyone is interested in prototype modeling. We all have different interests within the hobby, and different skill sets to offer.

I have two main interests within the hobby, replicating prototype operation, and passenger trains. That doesn't give me the right to criticize the fellow with a 4x8, or the 60' long shorty passenger cars. I do admit to sniping at some Elitist Historical Society members, who disallow discussion of any topic not found in remaining company archives. But that's in another context, and not a random ambush of someone's initial modeling effort on U-tube.

I am the first to admit, that just because I started in HO in 1961, and have read most model magazines published since I started, doesn't make me an expert model railroader. I tend to learn things from participation on forums and watching videos, as well as by making mistakes building my railroad, so I have no room to throw rocks here or anywhere else.

As I learned recently in a conversation with someone else, things are not always what they seem to be, and preconceived notions are almost always deflated.

Boris
 
Well, OK! You all have totally confused me; therefore, I shall just continue to be myself!
It's worked for 75 years! :)
BUT, If I may add ... I have enjoyed all of your comments on this subject.

I think if you cut out one particular respondent to this conversation, things will become much clearer.
 
Boris,

Yep you are right, this is a hobby and NOT a competition although, as mentioned in a previous post, you may be forgiven for thinking otherwise where some people are concerned.

Look, the way I see it is like this - if a person doesn't ask for advice or help then they are apparently happy with what they have and are satisfied with what they have. NO ONE has the right to tell them any differently, no one.

If a person asks for advice or for a critical eye to be given to what they have and that results in suggestions and advice then so be it. it is what the layout owner wanted.

The people who p#ss me off to no end are those who go to a persons post, where that post was solely for the purpose of displaying what they had done and did not ask for advice or help, and start ripping the layout apart because it didn't suit them. Worse are those who demean a persons work but fail to offer any suggestions or improvements OR offer examples of their own work to give the person something to consider. The sort of individual who simply criticizes for the sake of doing so - the guy in the video for example.

So far as I am concerned, those people are nothing more than arrogant, self obsessed prima donna's.
 
Apparently some of you could not see the response generated that was so caustic towards the layout builder. I have captured it and re-printed it here so all can see what has caused this thread:

"There are two type of 4x8 layouts, fish bowl and point to point switching. Why does everyone who does a fish bowl put in mountains? The track issues tell me that a NMRA standards gauge was not used in laying of the track or building the cars. The track grade looks to me greater than 2% on a 4x8. Most of the cars, all of the box cars, are too old to run with those engines and the look of the layout scenery. None of the box cars should have roof walks on them. Engines should not be making that odd noise. Remember, if modeling the real railroad, they hate grade on their tracks. They love flat and level, use foam board, lay track flat, then lower or raise scenery."

The way I got to the above response was to click on YOUTUBE on the video. That way, all the responses to this video are shown and there is even more to the above nastiness, if you want to read it!
 
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You know what's odd about this? That's the only video I've found that comes with nasty comments. Seems everyone else supports the person's build on every other layout video I watched.

Justin
 



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