AmTrak train crash


T

trailrider

Well-Known Member
An Amtrak train crashed head-on into a freight parked on a siding today, killing the engineer and the conductor in the Amtrak engine, and injuring at least 116 passengers! Apparently, a switch had been thrown and padlocked by the freight crew that routed the passenger train onto the siding! According to news reports, a signal system that should have warned the Amtrak train was not in operation! This would appear to be another reason for activating Positive Train Control sooner, rather than later.
 
Or not. If the switch was lined and locked for the siding and everything was operating correctly, the signals would have indicated a restrictive signal into the siding (with or without PTC). Amtrak would have entered the siding at a speed that would permit getting stopped before it hit something. If the signal maintainers working on the signal system did something that allowed a clear signal into the switch, then it wouldn't necessarily matter if there was PTC, because PTC would rely on the signal system working properly. The possible involvement of the signal maintainers complicates the investigation greatly.
 
33.90892 -81.06722 are the coordinates for Google Maps and Google Earth.

As Dave stated, if the signal system was O.O.S., then PTC would be down also. From what I heard they were working with Track warrants, and /or Verbal Permission.

PTC is a political agenda for the NTSB, so much that they ignore any evidence to the contrary. To the Media, it's a panacea. To Industry Professionals, it's a tool, just like Cab Signals and Train Control systems.
 
When did the so called freight crew throw the switch. If they threw it after the train entered the block a signal wouldn't have helped. I haven't worked for the railroad in 37 years but isn't there a 5 minute rule on throwing a main line switch to make sure there's no trains in the block. On the upper NY Harlem division where there were 15 mile blocks the only chance you had on a miss aligned switch was the target. We had to put the train into emergence once because the switch target was aligned for the siding. Some had just took the target off and put it back as if it was aligned for the siding and didn't throw the switch.

George
 
Once you get signal maintainers and a signal suspension involved, there is no telling what the cause is by remote control. There are so many factors that pop in because then the exact timing is critical. Once the normal operation of the signal system is interrupted, all bets are off as far as "normal".
 
George, Dave and others: it appears that there are numerous, and somewhat contradictory stories floating about.
1. That there was a loss of signal power and #91 was running on Verbal Authority.
2. The story of the crew of a freight train lining the railroad for their movement.
3. The involvement of C&S Maintainers.

If you look at the site, via Google Earth, you can see an Auto distribution terminal, a small yard, a siding with loads of multilevels about. One aerial photo, supposedly of the wreck itself, it appears that the passenger train may have sideswiped multi-levels fouling the ladder, but it wasn't a very clear photo, and I may have misinterpreted it.
 
At least when I was an engineer if the signals are out then your running at restricted speed 15 mph looking out for a broken rail, any type of obstruction, train ahead or your running on train orders from point A to B which the dispatcher insures that your route is clear. So if the signals are out and your don't have train orders then you have to run restricted until all things are back working correctly.

George
 
Whats the deal with so many CSX problems? NS has a similar amount of track etc and seems to have fewer Crash, Spill, Xplode events.
 
Y3a said:
Whats the deal with so many CSX problems? NS has a similar amount of track etc and seems to have fewer Crash, Spill, Xplode events.
Click to expand...

Easy answer, NS has a strong Safety Culture, and no tolerance for mistakes. That's why they are frequently referred to as the "Nazi Southern".
 
Safety culture is one of the strongest indicators of overall performance for any company. When I worked as a Boilermaker at nuclear power plants, safety was the biggest factor that was ingrained into everybody's work habits. A cavalier attitude towards safety WILL lead to an increase of accidents and a decrease in the bottom line.
 
NYC_George said:
At least when I was an engineer if the signals are out then your running at restricted speed 15 mph looking out for a broken rail, any type of obstruction, train ahead or your running on train orders from point A to B which the dispatcher insures that your route is clear. So if the signals are out and your don't have train orders then you have to run restricted until all things are back working correctly.

George
Click to expand...

Exactly, but supposedly they were running with the modern version of a Train order, a Track warrant, (or Form D), taking the signal system out of service and imposing manual block rules. -- and verbal permissions and condition of block. Whether that story is factual or not, I don't know, but I recall a similar incident on Conrail, where a Sulfuric Acid train running at track speed on Form D Authority, with a Clear Block, was actually lined off the main to an Industrial track, against stored chemical tank cars. They got stopped, the engineer was seriously injured, because he bailed off at 30 MPH.
 
WJLI26 said:
Easy answer, NS has a strong Safety Culture, and no tolerance for mistakes. That's why they are frequently referred to as the "Nazi Southern".
Click to expand...
I remember when NS quit the steam program and they were called that and No Steam or No Soul. A friend told me CSX stood for Crash, Spill, Xplode!
 
Y3a said:
I remember when NS quit the steam program and they were called that and No Steam or No Soul. A friend told me CSX stood for Crash, Spill, Xplode!
Click to expand...

Thumb up.gif Like it.
 
With all the modern communication capabilities, it would seem (to this NON-prototype individual) that the signal maintainers should have been able to communicate with the dispatcher before they took the signal system down. Perhaps they should have been required to send a flagman back down the line to watch for any oncoming trains. Likewise, why did the freight crew throw and lock the switch without informing the dispatcher? Tragic! Tragic combination of events that took the lives of the Amtrak crewmen.
 
trailrider said:
With all the modern communication capabilities, it would seem (to this NON-prototype individual) that the signal maintainers should have been able to communicate with the dispatcher before they took the signal system down. .
Click to expand...

They did. That's why the dispatcher was operating with verbal authority.

There are other people involved. The last crew to handle the switch was the freight train crew that put the train into the siding and lined the switch for the siding. They are required to notify the dispatcher when they are clear of the main track. "Clear" means all the cars off the main track and all the switches lined and locked for the main track. There was a previous FRA emergency order that required crews to notify the dispatcher that the switches were restored to normal position and lined and locked for the main track. I don't know if that was required on this territory, but it looks like the freight crew told the dispatcher they were clear of the main track. With the signals suspended, there is no way the dispatcher can "see" the position of switches. It becomes like 10's of thousands of miles of unsignaled track. The crew says they are clear, the dispatcher runs another train.

I have seen other cases where the train crew told the dispatcher that all the switches were lined and locked and they weren't and bad things happened. There is a distinct possibility this is another one of those cases.
 
As previously pointed out and confirmed by several sources, the Signal System was taken out of service for a scheduled outage. ironically, so that the C&S technicians could install PTC Hardware. The Amtrak train was operating under some system of verbal authority. There was a freight train in the clear on a siding. The freight crew, failed to re-line the railroad for the main track before reporting clear. From 1000 miles away, it appears that the freight crew or whoever last operated that switch, is responsible. It's also obvious, that PTC would NOT have prevented this accident, under the apparent circumstances.

Unfortunately, this type of accident does happen occasionally, and I'm saddened at the loss of my Brother Engineers. No one is perfect or foolproof, but again, this accident shouldn't have happened. In this case an error of omission had serious consequences to many others who were depending on someone perform their job correctly.
 
Something seems amiss here. If the freight pulled into the siding and the two trains collided head on, who threw the other switch? The freight may have restored the entrance switch and reported such but why would the exit switch be thrown?
 
If you look at Google you will see there is an auto facility on the other side of the main, the auto train apparently pulled out of the auto facility and shoved back into the siding.
 
I guess like WJLI26 said, the train crew is at fault. Saying they were in the clear and not realigning the switch makes big trouble for the next train due over the track. Maybe a train traveling in the opposite direction could have flopped the switch over with out any problems if it was that type of switch?

George
 
Not in a main track. All the switches would be rigid switches that are lined and locked into position. Since in "normal" operation this would be a CTC main track, the switches would have a contact on them to tell the signal system that the switch was open or normal position, but with the signal suspension, those protections would not be working. As I said before, there are 10's of thousands of miles of non-signaled main track that operate the same way. The crews have to restore main track switches to normal position or they have to tell the dispatcher that they left a switch open and the dispatcher has to issue instructions to other crews warning them of the open switch.
 
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