Membership in the NMRA verses the Number of Model Railroaders in the U.S.


I don't because I don't see myself as a collector (Although all the stuff in the basement says otherwise).
Or in my case worse.... A hoarder. "Hello everyone, I'm the Iron Horseman and I've been a hoarder for 5 decades...."

A partial, related joke: The boss is inteviewing a candidate for an account's job. "I only have one question," he says. "What's two plus two?" The candidate replies, "What would you like it to be?"
One of my favorite questions to see how closely the person is listening, "What are two and two?", because no math was implied the answer could be "They are numbers".
 
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Or in my case worse.... A hoarder. Hellow I'm the Iron Horseman and I've been a hoarder for 4 decades....

One of my favorite questions to see how closely the person is listening, "What are two and two?", because no math was implied the answer could be "They are numbers".

Touch[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]é, Iron Horseman! :)[/FONT]
 
Here is the quote by Mike Brestel in response to my question in the NMRA's Forum on this very subject: Current membership

[FONT=&amp]Current membership is about 17,500. The data is published several times per year in the NMRA Magazine. There is no point in publishing the number more often, because it's not volatile and there are no dramatic month-to-month changes. The number held steady at about 20,000 from 2006 through 2012, then there has been slow, steady decline since.
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[FONT=&amp]Generally accepted thought in the model railroad/publishing industry has been that the total number of model railroaders is about 10 times the NMRA's membership. This yields a total of about 175,000 in the US/North America. AKAIK there is no more accurate indicator of model RR interest than this rule-of-thumb. -Mike Brestel[/FONT]

Mark,

It would have been informative to note that Mike Brestel - a former NMRA president and current board member - was the source of those numbers. I'd say that gives them a fair degree of legitimacy. However, to address a point Mike made (on February 21) on the NMRA forum thread in which those figures were cited, I don't think I ever saw any membership data published in the magazine in the two recent years I was a member. Granted, I may well have missed it, but don't recall seeing it.

As for membership growth and the opportunity to capture a larger share of that estimated 175,000-strong North American model railroader market, consider this "strategy," quoted verbatim from the March/April, 2018 NMRA eBulletin: "Membership Retention is the best and most economical way to grow our numbers." (It then goes on to highlight the National program for reimbursing Divisions up to $50 annually for an approved retention program.) That is, if the NMRA just maintains its current level of membership (without losing any members to, say, death or cancellation) then it'll grow. An amazing feat indeed.
 
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So, per Mr. Brestel, a rough estimate of the number of Model Railroaders in the U.S.A. would be around 175,000 people and the current number of members in the NMRA is 17,500. The following is simply my opinion: Only 10% of the total, does not seem like a very good proportion to me!

We have plenty of responses here stating why Model Railroaders are not members of the NMRA, including my own statements of dissatisfaction with the organization as a member. So, what would it take to get you to be interested in becoming a member of the NMRA? What changes in the organization would it take to increase your interest in being a member? It is easy as hell to be critical, lets do a little more thinking on the matter and make suggestions that might help the NMRA understand why the other 90% of Model Railroaders choose not to be members. I understand that it's possible a large proportion of of the 90% may not even know that the NMRA exists.
 
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Yea... I did the free trial and found a couple of interesting things on the website, BUT the NMRA videos remind me of presentations I did back in the 60’s! Overhead Projectors and Acetate sheets and slide projectors. Some guy with a hand held video cam taping the out of focus lecture.

I also paid the $75 membership fee and I also don’t know why. After I did i decided to give it a fair shake and began searching their website for topics like trackwork, turnouts, dcc, etc. Have you ever tried to search their site? Hmmm..

I won’t be wasting another $75 next year.
 
So, what would it take to get you to be interested in becoming a member of the NMRA? What changes in the organization would it take to increase your interest in being a member?

The NMRA, is what it is. I don't imagine they will change the core traditions / policies of the organization to appeal to the masses in the hope of attracting new members. As I stated earlier, Affordability and time are not issues for me, so I will avoid the cost issue. The value of my membership is key to my renewing my membership.

I have been modeling for more than 5 decades at this point, and have developed other methods of learning and improving my skill level. I'm not interested in participating in the achievement program, so that's not a factor. So I have to apply the same criteria I use when I renew membership to Railroad Historical Societies, that being, did I get sufficient enjoyment and knowledge from the group during the past year to justify my renewal? Remember, memberships in many societies or groups, is nothing more than a targeted magazine subscription, plus an optional donation to the particular non-profit. The NMRA, is no different.

I just looked at the NMRA Web site, and apparently, If I rejoin, it will be as a new member, which doesn't bother me. Might even get a new goodie package?
It just comes down to whether I find my year's investment rewarding or a waste of money.

Your result may be different.
 
For me it all boils down to "Bang for the Buck"! Were the membership fees to be from $25.00 to maybe $45.00 per year, I might consider membership to be worthwhile, even though my division doesn't appear to be very active. I might consider it money well spent for the NMRA Magazine and membership in an organization interested in keeping my hobby organized with Standards and the various other aspects of what the NMRA is involved with. $75.00 per years is simply to much money for what I get out of the NMRA.
 
From what I've seen, experienced and read in the magazine, the NMRA - despite its endless, vacuous statements professing so - has neither the interest nor the will to go after new members or the know-how to do so. It's an insular culture content with maintaining the status quo of an old boy's club.
 
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I belong to 2 other "hobby" oriented organizations. Both produce quality monthly magazines, one averaging 62 pages, the other's running 84 to 112, depending on the month (holiday issues being larger). There is usually around 4 to 6 pages of "association" information, the rest being (in my opinion) a good mix of advertising and editorial content. The last issue of the NMRA Bulletin I saw was 28 pages and around half of that was association related. Reading the NMRA publication I linked to in a previous post (75 years...), each time the NMRA ran into financial problems, it reduced the size and staff of the magazine. The organizations dues are $35 (not including the senior discount) and $45 (no senior discount). A subscription to Model Railroader is $43. A subscription to Model Railroad Hobbyist is $0. Yes, I understand there are no printing costs involved, but there are servers, etc. to be paid for.

So to answer Mark's question, "what would it take to get you to be interested in becoming a member of the NMRA?", it would require a significantly improved magazine for a reduced annual membership fee. In looking at the NMRA's web page, I simply do not understand the value of what you get for the money you pay. Access to 10,000 photos in the archive (vs a million or more on the internet?), access to the Kalmbach Memorial Library (?), Conventions (none of which are close to me), and access to the "Members Only" store.
 
I have been poking around on the NMRA web site (again) and just can't justify joining. Living where I do, conventions are too far away to attend. Like Joe, not interested in their achievement program. I have been interested in model railroading for well over 50 years. Start like most folks with an oval and moved on from there.

Over the years I have improved my skills, most in the school of hard knocks and by trial and error. I have also lerned from friends, mostly from out of state who have some excellent home and club layouts. A few of them were members of the NMRA and for one reason or another some have dropped their memberships.

I am happy with my layout and being that ll of the track is down, most of the scenery complete and with no more room for structures, I plan on mainly improving older parts of the layout. I am too old to tear out what I have and start over so I will just enjoy my layout and run trains the way the layout was designed for.
 
Reading the NMRA publication I linked to in a previous post (75 years...), each time the NMRA ran into financial problems, it reduced the size and staff of the magazine. The organizations dues are $35 (not including the senior discount) and $45 (no senior discount).

Obviously I have to be misunderstanding what your saying above, as membership in the NMRA costs $75.00 and not $35.00; or, even $45.00, was this what it cost at some time in the past?
 
I belong to 2 other "hobby" oriented organizations. Both produce quality monthly magazines, one averaging 62 pages, the other's running 84 to 112, depending on the month (holiday issues being larger). There is usually around 4 to 6 pages of "association" information, the rest being (in my opinion) a good mix of advertising and editorial content. The last issue of the NMRA Bulletin I saw was 28 pages and around half of that was association related. Reading the NMRA publication I linked to in a previous post (75 years...), each time the NMRA ran into financial problems, it reduced the size and staff of the magazine. The organizations dues are $35 (not including the senior discount) and $45 (no senior discount). A subscription to Model Railroader is $43. A subscription to Model Railroad Hobbyist is $0. Yes, I understand there are no printing costs involved, but there are servers, etc. to be paid for.

So to answer Mark's question, "what would it take to get you to be interested in becoming a member of the NMRA?", it would require a significantly improved magazine for a reduced annual membership fee. In looking at the NMRA's web page, I simply do not understand the value of what you get for the money you pay. Access to 10,000 photos in the archive (vs a million or more on the internet?), access to the Kalmbach Memorial Library (?), Conventions (none of which are close to me), and access to the "Members Only" store.

Kevin,

It's been a while, it seems, since you last saw the NMRA magazine. The latest issue has 61 pages, a number that's been quite consistent in recent years. But the percentage of association-related content is is way less than what you had seen previously. It's the near-ceaseless promotion of the convention and its followup. however, that's a big turnoff.
 
Kevin,

It's been a while, it seems, since you last saw the NMRA magazine. The latest issue has 61 pages, a number that's been quite consistent in recent years. But the percentage of association-related content is is way less than what you had seen previously. It's the near-ceaseless promotion of the convention and its followup. however, that's a big turnoff.

The NMRA magazine is published by White River , the same publishing house that publishes Railroad Model craftsman, and the Penn Central Historical society magazine. I would imagine it is of high quality, but not worth $75 bucks a year. If you're the type who schedules his life around attending conventions, this is important, but for the rest of us, meh.

This discussion has piqued my interest in checking the NMRA web site, I haven't looked at it since they changed the logo. There may even be less reason to rejoin.

There have been times when I thought of the NMRA as a trade association, that condescends to allow consumers in as associate members to pay the bills. What do y'all think of that concept?
 
Obviously I have to be misunderstanding what your saying above, as membership in the NMRA costs $75.00 and not $35.00; or, even $45.00, was this what it cost at some time in the past?

The two figures I quoted ($35 and $45) are for the 2 other organizations I belong to. One of those cases of "thought drift".
 
Its NMRA member only, which , based on the feedback on this thread, means the majority of this thread's participants will never be able to read it.
 
Its NMRA member only, which , based on the feedback on this thread, means the majority of this thread's participants will never be able to read it.

I rather thought non-members would not be able to access. Thanks Dave!
 
I saw someone came up with the total number of model railroaders as 175,000. I suppose that is a pretty good estimate, but I think defining who is a "model railroader" is problematic. No doubt we can agree that someone with an large HO basement railroad is an MR. Is the guy down the street with a Lionel set he gets out at Christmas an MR? How about the guy who collects pre-was toy trains? Does Brio count? (Yes, that was a little over the top, but you get what I am saying?). How do you define an MR? I think the 175,000 number was pretty all-inclusive.

The model airplane guys have much the same identification and participation issues. I think their national organization has about the same level of participation - 10% - depending on how you count the total population. Is the guy who buys an airplane kit and never builds it counted? How about the guy/girl who buys a plane from the hobby shop, and never flies it, or flies it once? As I understand it, many model airplane fly only once, but that's a different issue. :cool:

The model airplane guys, model ship builders, etc. all have the same participation percentage calculation challenge. They also share with the NMRA the very real challenge of potential members located in areas where there are few other like minded individuals that make an organization like the NMRA viable. The poster here who lives in Montana has few activities around them, so I am not surprised he found very little benefit in the NMRA, at least direct personal benefit. I live in a large metropolitan area, so the NMRA has been a wonderful source of friends and activities.
 
Where to begin...

I'll start with MMR. The purpose of the program as I understand it is to cause you to advance your modeling by learning new skills that you would not otherwise bother to learn. Its a set of goals, achieve a high standard of modeling. I want to learn how to make my models look like the pictures, MMR is one way of getting there. If you feel put off by being judged, well, there is not requirement to participate. And I won't think less of you for not doing so. Most MMRs I have met have been more than happy to share what they learned from their experience earning their MMR, and I have never had one look down their nose at me. In fact, I think its part of the deal when you earn your MMR is that you are supposed to help other modelers get theirs.

Membership numbers and retention.
Having spoken with several people within the NMRA leadership, the issue is not signing up new members, but retaining members at the local level. The conversion rate in some regions from the trial membership to full member is not the best. This is why the focus on retaining members. Some divisions are really good at it. Others are not. This isnt something that is easy to fix from the top down. It something that has to be fixed from the ground up.

National
Someone brought up that he thought his dues were going towards paying for the the leadership to fly overseas. I have two thoughts on this.
1. I will verify if that is something we spend money on...had not really thought much about it.
2. The NMRA, like it or not, is a international organization, it is no longer just about the United States or North America. If the NMRA president was from the UK or Germany, would you feel put off by them never visiting the US?

From my understanding, the National organization has 5 paid members. We no longer own a building. The building was sold to fill in the life time member deficit.

Lifetime members cost the organization money and time. The most recent example is that the was a division in NY state that was looking to change regions from one in Canada to the Northeast Region. The move was spurred on by the increase in hassle to transport things back and forth between Canada for meets, and the overall distance to the Canadian meeting locations. The NY division members spent years tracking down proof that a handful of lifetime members had passed away, so that they could complete their vote to move regions. Those members had passed away in the 1990s, before the internet really took off. They were still getting magazines and other member mailings. Many organizations across the United States do not offer Lifetime memberships any longer.

The magazine

The magazine alone is not worth $75 a year, I can think of few that would be. It is, however worth $28 a year. The February issue was 62 pages. I felt that it contained about the same proportion of advertisements as MR or RMC. The quality of the magazine is on par with both those publications, in my opinion.

Membership cost.

$47 a year. This is on par with many clubs. Do you get your $47 dollars worth? If yes, then renew, if not, don't. This years dues will be paid for by me buying tools from MicroMark (they offer NMRA members a discount). Dues are not likely to go down, just like death and taxes, dues increases are inevitable.

The convention.
Yes it is now members only. Many organizations nationwide have member only events. This is not abnormal.
I have been to three, Cleveland, Portland and Indianapolis. Each had its plus and minuses. I didn't go this year because its against my principles to visit Florida in the hottest month of the year.
If you have not joined the NMRA in the past 2 years, and the convention is going to be in your area, it might be worth the 9 month $19.95 rail pass membership to check out the convention. The national train show is open to the public starting at Noon on Friday.

As stated before the National Headquarters building was sold (several years ago) to plug the deficit from the lifetime member fund.

If you consider that the number of model railroaders is declining (the Wall Street Journal's opinion, not mine), then if the number of NMRA members remains constant, its percentage of "market share" will actually grow! See, aren't statistics fun!

For the numbers of NMRA membership and cost of dues, see https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/nmraorg/web/a_look_back_a_look_ahead.pdf
This document is over 7 years old and therefore does not contain current data.

NMRA videos
The website contains videos from conventions going back several years. I the three years I attended conventions all clinics that were recorded were done so with a digital video camera on a tripod. The videos I have watched from recent conventions were in focus.

In addition to convention clinic videos. Model Railroad Hobbyist and Model Railroader Video Plus have donated videos for members to watch. These can be found here after logging in:
https://www.nmra.org/members/videos

NMRA members as a total percentage of model railroaders.

I had not heard of the NMRA until 2013, when my local model railroad club was making plans to attend the national train show. I was 26 at the time. I joined so that I could attend the convention clinics.

Edit (I forgot to finish my thought): The NMRA is not really focused on 3-rail O model railroaders as there are national organizations devoted specifically to that aspect of the hobby (Train Collectors Association, Lionel Collectors Club of America). They do however, realize that Lionel trains are where a lot of people started (start off) in this hobby, and last year a Lionel Fasttrack layout appeared at the National Train Show. This layout was brought by LCCA members to Florida to promote the hobby.

Mark,

What I think that infers, fairly strongly at that, is the very group that is SUPPOSED to be all about the Model Railroading Hobby and modelrailroad hobbiests is only interested themselves and those who are interested in them.

If they can refuse a non members entry into something, then maybe they should give back all money that non members may have donated over the years! Or perhaps they could sell the fancy HQ building they bought or lease and use THAT money for everyone in the hobby instead of just themselves. Better still, maybe they could cancel all of their over seas trips at the members expense or pay for them out of their own pockets.

The NMRA is little more than a group of self appointed, money grabbing elitists and, obviously, don't give a damn about the hobby or those in it, just those who support them and the aspects of the hobby THEY consider worth the effort.

Here's an idea - perhaps they could spend that money on PROMOTING the HOBBY instead of themselves.

Tony,
The NMRA pays money to rent the convention spaces. They have every right under the laws of this country to make this decision. Allowing non-members to attend the convention has been discussed. I think there is an issue with our insurance policy and non-members receiving member benefits. As it is, the convention breaks even or possibly not even, the NMRA is not making a profit off of its membership. Your assumption of inference is not correct, as stated by Mark.

The leadership of the NMRA are elected by the membership. They are not self-appointed, if they were, they would be in violation of one or more federal regulations involving the 501c.3 status.
As stated before, the H.Q. building is long gone.

I don't know if Charlie Getz is still the President of the NMRA; or, not. However, he had a column in the NMRA Magazine that is really a very good commentary on the hobby. I think he has great interest in the state of the hobby and the wellfare of model railroaders in general. I know of other member leaders that seem genuinely interested in where the hobby is headed. I just don't see the NMRA working for those members in regions and divisions where there isn't much activity!

Charlie Getz's term ends this year I believe. Your assessment here is correct. The local division makes or breaks the organization. Unfortunately, there is little that the national organization can do about local division problems. This change has to come from the local level.
 
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I saw someone came up with the total number of model railroaders as 175,000. I suppose that is a pretty good estimate, but I think defining who is a "model railroader" is problematic. No doubt we can agree that someone with an large HO basement railroad is an MR. Is the guy down the street with a Lionel set he gets out at Christmas an MR? How about the guy who collects pre-was toy trains? Does Brio count? (Yes, that was a little over the top, but you get what I am saying?). How do you define an MR? I think the 175,000 number was pretty all-inclusive.

My position on this is yes, all of these people are model railroaders. Brio is not really over the top. Its great because kids can re-arrange the track however they want, and it is fairly robust. My first train set was Brio, then Lionel that my dad had, then N scale. Then back to 3rail O, and now Ho scale.

My NMRA divisions tours last month consisted of 2 HO scale layouts (one at an advanced stage of completion, one under construction) and one Standard gauge layout. My NMRA group has toured American Flyer, Lionel, outdoor multi scale layouts, HO scale, Standard gauge, and possibly a N scale layout or too (its been awhile).
 



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