My ONE and ONLY project ...


Your hit the nail on the head ... it is ALL about compromise in this hobby. Do I have all of one thing OR a little bit of everything. Making that decision can be tough.

I also agree with you when you say that no matter how much room/space/area I have, it will never be enough. The more you have, the more you always seem to want. I started out with a small 4' X 5+' layout. That wasn't big enough. I then built a layout that took up the length of one wall. That now is not big enough. Now I have extended that to cover 2 walls and converting from HO Scale to N Scale so I can do more, and yep, that won't be big enough either :) All I know is I have now run out of space so, regardless of whether I think it is big enough or not, this one will be the biggest I will ever have.
 
wombat457 said:
Just keep in mind there "could be" a small siding included in the reverse loop area. That can be done right without screwing up the reverse loop wiring/electrics?
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Short answer is Yes. Long answer is, If it is a passing siding, as long as trains passing in the siding aren't simultaneously returning to the main loops. That would be an issue. In that case you could also just make one track of the siding part of the main line and the other track part of the reversing loop. Or use two automatic reversers. If it is just an industrial siding for switching, the answer is back to a simple, yes.
 
Horseman,

Thanks and yes, it will be basically a loading/unloading siding or industrial siding. Train goes in, stops, drops the rolling stock and then continues on its way. Some where to put, and leave, a set of cars for loading/unloading with no engine attached.
 
Not too much has happened due to some unexpected "bills" so I spent this afternoon researching N Scale Grades. To my surprise, I learnt that grades of up to 4% were "doable" with the right engine and no more than 15 cars which, for my layout, will be the maximum for aesthetics.

After looking at the plan and considering the "extra grade % that could be handled" I have increased my grades from 2% to 2.5% with one or two reaching 3% for short distances.

What this does is change the whole appearance of the layout and has allowed me more flexibility with the development of levels. The addition of extra levels allows for more interesting scenery and general terrain appearance. While it all sounds "great in theory", how it will look in the flesh is another matter. Going from 3 levels to 6 might may things look way too disjointed and fragmented. The point of this is simple though - having the ability to increase the grade without restricting performance, opens up other possibilities.
 
For some extra variety, you can always station a helper or two to work the grades with the train. This is where passing sidings top and bottom come in. With DCC control there's no need to insulate them from the main.
 
Toot'n,

Thanks for the suggestion mate ... "helpers" = "piggy backing loco's" ... hmm, this is me your talking to remember!

Last time I tried piggy backing anything, I threw my back out and was laid up for a week. Mind you, I was single then and the nurse wern't half bad :) Seriously though, oh wait - I was being serious :(

No really, from what I read (a trillion years ago) piggy backing loco's in DCC was a bit of a pain in that well known region. Don't you have to ensure that both engines are virtually cloned in every way for them to be able to work together?

One option I think I read about was where you could put two engines, of the same type, on the main track and program them with a single identifying number and they would run as one engine. I don't know if that is right, but it was something along those lines.

Trust me, if I knew how to do it successfully without messing an engine up, I'd run three engines together like what I see pass us every day.
 
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It's called "consisting" Tony, in both the real and model railroading worlds, as far as the US is concerned. Britain, Aus & NZ call them Bankers, 'cause they were used as extra engines on Banks (Grades). You've got NCE DCC now, so you can choose between 'old style' or the better 'Advanced' consisting'. The Old Style is just building consists by adding locos together without specifying which is the lead loco. One disadvantage of the 'Old' is all locos will have their headlights on, and if they're sound equipped the various sound features can't be assigned to an individual loco in the consist. i.e. lead loco only, in control of lights, horn, bell. With 'Advanced', the lead and tail locos are entered first (the NCE Cab asks that, when beginning to build one and the direction it will be running, so if you wish the rear loco (or any within) can be run in the reverse position and run that way around along with the others all running forward.) Once the front and rear locos have been chosen, you then add locos in between. You don't need to specify their exact position, but I usually start with the nearest to the front and work backwards. Once the consist has it's last loco entered, press the Prog/Esc button (key), it should show the lead loco's ID#, if different, select the lead by it's number and enter, and the consist shows as CON XXXX by whatever that loco's # is. The consist # (127-1 the highest being offered first, then working backward as they fill up) is held in CV19 in each decoder. The consist can be run by either the lead's #, or by the consist#. You can then build another if you want and that will record as CON126 and be run by that CON#, or preferrably it's lead loco#. You can add locos and delete locos easily, change which is the lead and/or tail as/if needed. The information on how can be found in the manuals under the heading "Old and Advanced Consists Explained".

I have run up to 6 in a consist with my HO's, divided into a lead group and mid train, all as the one consist, even did it with a 3-2-1, but that was a bit tricky where a train was going down grade at the front and the others still upgrade, and worse when the roles got switched. A bit of an experience with train speed control, which unfortunately doesn't mimic reality.. Have yet to try adding helpers in to a consist as I'm suggesting, but will give it a try next weekend (not this) when we have a Friday night and Sunday day runs, see how that goes.

To answer your concern about messing up locos in a consist. The CV that controls consists in a loco's decoder (that's every individual decoder) is CV19. It can happen, and does with me on the club layout where there are several trains operating at once, that short cicuits can scramble 1 or more decoders in the consist, and they stop receiving commands (they go into a phantom consist). Unfortunately it means identifying the ones affected by physically seperating them and finding which are not responding to the commands. Each of the non-responders can be fixed using the Cab to access each seperately in POM (Programming on the Main) mode. This can be done without affecting other locos on the tracks. All locos need to have their individual addresses assigned for advanced consisting to work.. Select an offender by ID#, enter, to show that # on screen, and then press the Prog/Esc button at the bottom left of the Cab. You'll be asked "Prog loco on Main?", Press Enter. "Prog XXXX? Press enter. The next screen will give you 3 options. #1, Address. #2, CV's. #3, Config. Press key2 on the Cabs buttons, this will show, Select CV - - - -. Write 19 and enter. Next will show Select Value, Write 0 (zero) and enter. The loco should respond with whatever sign the maker has designed for acknowledging CV changes. (jerks forward, toots horn or whistle, flashes lights as appropriate) That will tell you the change to the setting has been successful. You can now select and enter that loco's address and add it back into the consist. Repeat with any other individuals that need it.

Very tedious, but it will be quicker than reading this. (not mentioning how long it might take to remember and apply :rolleyes::mad:) Being as you are in the main a lone operator and thoroughly expert in track laying, should never be needed. This is also how you get a loco out of consist, if you have cleared (killed) the consist from the base station, and have removed the locos beforehand. They won't respond to commands till that's cleared.
 
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No really, from what I read (a trillion years ago) piggy backing loco's in DCC was a bit of a pain in that well known region. Don't you have to ensure that both engines are virtually cloned in every way for them to be able to work together?
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Tony, Well at least cloned so that at each speed step, the loco's will run the same speed. That was my experience with running an F unit A-B set. Brand new out of the box, same manufacture, they should run the the same. Right? NO! I ended up using an Accutrack speedometer and changing the CV's on the A-B units to get them to run the same at each speed step. (They were programed individually) Then I could program them together as one and run them as a consist.
 
I missed one of your Q's about running more than 1 loco together by 1 number. Yes you can do that, but it means assigning each the same address, then the system sees them as 1 loco. Once again you can't give a lead loco sole control over lights etc, so they'll all be on. It's really best to have all locos assigned their own individual ID#'s to get the full advantages out of your DCC system, unless in the case of that group always being together and maybe disconnecting the lights in the trailing ones and always running, facing the same direction. You wouldn't be able to have a trailing loco turned around, because with DCC, unlike DC, it's the direction the decoder's set to that determines that, and reversing one, to run backwards with others that are going forward isn't possible in DCC without programming for consist operation. One of the guys in the club, who I've tried to show how, has forgotten and put his locos on the track reversed and using the same address for both, been puzzled as to why he can here the sound revving, but they're not moving. I usually, if I spot him, look at him, smile, raise the eyebrows and the light bulb goes off.
 
2Tracks said:
Yea! What Toot said.....:p:p:confused::confused:......lol
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Take it in stages, but not lubricated with the amber liquid. Dont worry, I'm still learning, haven't yet got through all the things that are needed to be done to take full advantage. And that's just 1st Gen Tsunamis.
 
wombat457 said:
One option I think I read about was where you could put two engines, of the same type, on the main track and program them with a single identifying number and they would run as one engine. I don't know if that is right, but it was something along those lines.
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Once again yes. Just putting them on the same channel is the easiest way to do it. After that you have to run them uncoupled and see how far apart their operating characteristics are. This is what I do with my road E and F units sets. Program them all to the same channel, flip the direction on two of them to reverse and go. Of course these are all sets of the exact same brand of loco and decoder. I've had harder time where some of the units are sound and other's aren't. Another reason I usually just run all sound.

I have also spent hours and hours programming locos, speed matching, acceleration steps, start voltage, getting the lights to do what I want etc etc. in order to get them exact to consist them together. I find it is just not worth it. If two loco's run at approximately the same speed without large variations in acceleration or deceleration then I put the faster one in front. If they aren't close together in operating characteristics I simply don't run them together - just like the prototype simply doesn't run certain units together.

I have the additional issue that if I forget they are consisted and take one of them to another layout and it won't work. Then I have to un-consist the one and when I get home the system gets confused. blah blah blah, I want to run trains not play video games with them trying to get the programming all lined up.
 
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Thanks Guys, especially Toot'n for the very detailed explanation of how it all works. It does sound complicated but, as with anything, when you've done it a few times (or a few hundred times) it becomes easy and straight forward, it's just that very first time that is a little intimidating.

Oh and Toot'n,

"...and thoroughly expert in track laying..."
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Evidently you know something that I don't :)

Horseman, thanks also and (after reading all that Toot'n wrote, I think I will start out using "your method", which seems a whole lot easier and quicker for a "beginner" at this, and having to remember how to use the NCE controller keeping in mind that I will most likely be using my Pro Cab (5 amp system) for this layout.
 
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As far as IH's comments, I have to confess that the consists I usually run are of the same brand and drive train which I have tested to see how they run together in a consist, but seperated and do put the one that's a little faster at the front. Mixing and matching of brands and decoders does take more time and effort and the reason many try to stick to one brand in both cases. One thing that should be tried is to get the start voltages sorted out for each loco, so they all move at the same speed step as a base to work from. It's not difficult to do, only needs a couple of lengths of flex, which is good, 'cause that's all I've got at home :eek:
 
Toot'n,

Thanks mate ... I might put together some flex and "play around" with the Power Pro. If nothing else, it will reacquaint me with its operation and I can use some of my HO engines to "practice with". I am assuming here that the scale is irrelevant.
 
Hi,

Most any decoder can be set so that either end of the loco can be the "front".

So you can have two (or more engines) each having their own DCC address and not have them fight one another.

"Consisting" is the generic term for making the settings needed to run two (or more) locos together.

There are at least two types of consisting that I am aware of. Which type (or types) are available to you would depend on your command station.

One type simply involves specifying the addresses of the locos you wish to consist.

The other type involves setting all of the decoders of the locos you wish to consist with a special "consist address". When this consist address is used to control the locos the normal loco addresses are ignored.

Frederick
 
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Frederick,

I have no idea what my command station (NCE Power Pro 5) can do as I have never looked at consisting until now, or having the "possible" need to. I will have to drag out the NCE Manual and have a read of it, so long as I still have it and can find it.

Seeing as there seems to be a bit of interest in "consists" I wonder how many people actual utilize that option and if they do out of necessity or just because it looks good?

Personally, I'd like to run two engines together (consisted) for appearances whether I need to or not.
 
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