Anyone ever use joint compound for sidewalks?

[Secondhandmodeler]

I've recently decided to abandon the idea of wooden sidewalks in favor of concrete. Being the cheap person that I am, I decided to try using some drywall mud I had sitting around. The thing that I'm concerned about is the edge of the slab. I am still going to have dirt roads in my town, so I don't think I'll need curb and gutter. Have you guys ever tried using joint compound for sidewalks? Would you still have a curb with dirt streets? All thoughts on the subject would be appreciated. Thanks

[UP2CSX]

Yes, I have used drywall compound for streets and sidewalks. My advice is don't. You have to make forms, smooth it out, clean up the mess, and then wait for the inevitable cracks and seal them up. Concrete sidewalks are laid about the same regardless of the street surface. You still need to have the sidewalk, curb, and the bottom of the slab projecting out into the street to stabilize the sidewalk. This is what you are probably thinking of when you say gutter.

Since your streets are going to be dirt, you can ignore the slab since it would be quickly covered by dirt. All you need is .40 sheet styrene. This will be thick enough for a sidewalk. Cut it to width (about an actual five feet is typical in downtown areas, three to four feet in residential) and then use a straight edge and a sharp Exacto blade to carve the curb line and expansion joints. I like Floquil Aged Concrete for sidewalks but there are many other choices including cheap light gray spray paint from Wallyworld. Give the sidewalks a few washes of diluted india ink to show off the expansion joints and curb lines. Glue it down with whatever glue you like - I use latex caulk. You're done. You can get fancy and file the corners into a curve but you can also just butt up the square pieces together. Any way you do it, it's a lot faster, easier, and less messy to use styrene and it comes out looking like a sidewalk as in flat, no wavy and cracked sections like you always get with any other method.

[Larry]

Jim is correct about the Mudd for sidewalks. I do use it for roads though. The cracks sometimes get pretty big, but I seal them up w/cheap latex caulk.
Then the cracks on the edge I seal w/Elmers glue. Just before the Mudd dries I use a damp sponge to smooth it out. Sometimes U need to make a form for roads that are raised up a little. I use wood stir sticks for the forms.
For sidewalks though it's a lot easier to use plastic sheeting.

Larry

[Trucula]

The guys are right about the compound. It is a mess. And the finished product is even more of a pain. We even used the road kits and wasn't impressed either. One problem is if you put it on foam it dryes it out too quick. And we had it lift and not stick later. We used plaster too but that did the same thing. Cracked up and lifted off the foam. If you want it to look good years later, do what they say and use plastic!

[Secondhandmodeler]

Thanks for all of the information guys. One of these days I'm going to ask your opinion before I start a project. I used one of the sidewalks off of a building base for height. As far as cracking, it's holding up so far. I'm just worried about it not lasting very long. Tonight I'm going to try and sand it down to see what happens. I'm guessing that I'll just rip it out. I guess that's what I get for being cheap. Where do you get different thicknesses of styrene. I know that somebody mentioned for sale signs. How thick would a typical sign be?

[GAPPLEG]

Being entirely lazy I just use premade plastic sidewalks , These ones look good and can be seperated to make thinner sidewalks than shown. These are what I use on my layout.

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/699-7000

[pcarrell]

My favorite method: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/crowley/ashphalt_roads.htm

Change the color and cut some expantion joints and it's either concrete roads or sidewalks.

[jbaakko]

Curb specs are usually 6" up to 8" tall, so an appropriate thickness of styrene works. I myself prefer GAPPLEG's idea, however, I've been looking at other brands, there's about 6 companies making sidewalks.

I DO however, have a mold made from 6x6 styrene, to make joint compound curbs, but not whole sidewalks. I found that it can be tough, but if you use spacers, of fine bits of plastic, or a brass rod, just at the top of curb, and down the sides (Not filling the whole width) you can pre-mold the expansion cracks.

[UP2CSX]

The one Gappleg referenced is perfect because they are 10 scale feet wide, which is actually too wide for most sidewalks. Score it down the middle and you have 80 scale feet of sidewalk for $5 with all the expansion joints and curved intersection sections done for you. It would be hard to find a cheaper solution. Phllip's link is nice for making realistic ashphalt roads but I think is sucks for sidewalks. The same plaster cracking that looks good on the road will look terrible on sidewalks. Plus, why mix up plaster for something can be easily and cheaply done with a ready made product like the one above?

[Secondhandmodeler]

I'm thinking that if I can get a reasonably decent edge, then I can lightly scribe the lines I need. Then I was going to give it a coat of paint and a dark wash. We'll see! I'm not looking for perfection. I'm more of a general idea type of person.

[RexHea]

Corey, I sure am glad you started this thread. With all the work I've done on my layout, I am just now getting to a modeled town. I hope you don't mind me asking a question along with yours since it is relative.

Fellows, I assume the sidewalk and the buildings are at the same level.
Do you cover under the buildings with something different than the sidewalks but the same thickness or use the same? (or all of the above:D )
If so, then you have the thickness of your road and then how much higher than that is the sidewalk?

As you can tell, this is totally a new area for me, Ha!

[jbaakko]

Rex, as I said, curbs are technically supposed to be 6X6, but range from 6-8". If I were laying a "foundation" to a building, I'd use some sheet balsa, covered with a card stock printout, or something of the sort, to mimic the flooring.

However, I have no room to speak, my Burger King has been waiting for a floor for over a year.

[UP2CSX]

Rex,
There are several ways to do this. One is to place each block of buildings on the same piece of styrene so the sidewalks are at the proper level compared to the building. This is also the most expensive and difficult way to do it. I lay out the sidewalk and street first and then use double sided tape to raise the buildings to sidewalk level. It's fast and cheap and you can move buildings around easily if need be. I use .010 thick styrene for roads and it's so thin that it plays practically no role in how high the sidewalks have to be.

[Secondhandmodeler]

Well, I tried to get a clean edge for the sidewalk. It didn't work out. I decided to add a small wood strip to the outside. Tonight I'm going to go back and fill in the gap. I know that I could just buy sidewalks, but I could buy premade buildings, trees, and every other thing that I need. I know with my limited modeling skills, It would probably looks better. Somehow it would be less satisfying. If it really looks crappy, then I'll rip it out. I used this mud for under the buildings as well. Now I have a 6" by 18" slab to set my buildings on. I am starting to think of how easy it would have been to use styrene. I just didn't think it would be thick enough.

[RexHea]

Corey, I hope you continue to post your progress with this. I am WATCHING YOU:eek: !

Thanks Josh/Jim.

I was out in the depot this morning and getting ready to use driveway patch to level out the floor entrance to a room. Would this stuff be good for doing the building foundations or road/sidewalks? It won't crack, it's hard but has plasticity at the same time. I know you can get it for concrete or asphalt driveways.

[Secondhandmodeler]

Rex, you're making me nervous! If you're looking for perfection in sidewalks, I wouldn't suggest plaster of any sorts. It is the look of perfection that scared me away from using plastic though. Nothing else on my layout is perfect. I thought they would scream PLASTIC! For roads or foundations, the drywall mud would work quite well. One thing I'm having to deal with is the difference of what looks good in person, and what looks good in a photo. In a detail photo, the four foot rule doesn't seem to apply. I'll try to post photos if the results are satisfatory.

[RexHea]

Haha! Yeah, I understand.
You know, I look at some of these fellows' town scenes and I'm always amazed at the perfection. Like you said, my layout isn't perfect, but I try to make things look good.

[Secondhandmodeler]

Here is what I've come up with so far. It needs a wash and some weathering. It's not perfect, but I think it will work for now. I also need to cut in some lines for the curbs.



http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb117/secondhandmodeler/PB020017.jpg
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb117/secondhandmodeler/PB020035.jpg

[RexHea]

Corey, that looks like it will work out ok. If you don't mind me mentioning, I believe if you sanded down the sidewalk lines it would look better. They look kind of deep.

[Secondhandmodeler]

Maybe I'll try to sand down it down when I get home. I'm afraid that they'll disapear. I'll just have to sand lightly I suppose. Thanks for the input. I'll post updates when I get further along.

[RexHea]

Corey, is the photo using drywall mud?
Another thought hit me: I wonder if laying window screen material down first and then applying the mud would help with strength and cracking.

[jbaakko]

Man rex, even thinking along the lines of Rebar, isn't that a little to modern for your layout's sidewalks!?

[RexHea]

Well, I'm not sure what you mean. You wouldn't even see the screen. It would be covered by the mud or plaster or whatever and be just for strength from vibration or getting jarred, maybe preventing it from cracking. Maybe? (it's always dangerous when I have a thought:eek: )

[Selector]

Corey, and gentlemen, I am late to this thread, but has any of you used foam double-sided tape? I found some at a dollar store and picked it up with a view to finding a use for it some time. Turns out, the stuff that is about 3/4" wide makes a passable sidewalk, especially after you mix some plaster in some latex paint and paint the upper sticky surface with it.

I even scored the upper surface to simulate expansion joints, and when the plaster/paint mix dried, making the top surface non-sticky, the cracks still showed up.

I was able to fashion the round sidewalk ends that one finds at intersections with a sharp blade, so the material is easy to work with that way, too.

-Crandell

[Secondhandmodeler]

Rex, this is premixed drywall mud. I had to buy a new tub of it to finish a project at my mother's house. I figured,"what the heck,give it a try". The results are probably not up to experienced modelers standards. It looks ok to me. The cracking was not too big of an issue. The issue is getting the edge square. I had to install a few strips of balsa wood salvaged from an old card stock building. Note to self, don't through away anything! If I had a large town area, I'd probably try a technique such as Selector mentioned. Tonight I'm going to sand it down a little, repaint, and weather. Thanks for the interest.

[jbaakko]

Well, I'm not sure what you mean. You wouldn't even see the screen. It would be covered by the mud or plaster or whatever and be just for strength from vibration or getting jarred, maybe preventing it from cracking. Maybe? (it's always dangerous when I have a thought:eek: )


My point is, they didn't use re-enforcing bar in sidewalks until VERY recently. :P However, no one would know, and it sounds very smart!

[RexHea]

Crandell, that sounds like a good idea. I was just trying to come up with something that would be a one-for-all method: sidewalk, foundation, street. I have even thought about foamboard for the foundation/sidewalk, but the water around may negate this idea.

[Secondhandmodeler]

Rex, I would think that styrene would give the most consistant results. You would just have to find ways to simulate each texture you're trying to model. You could leave the plastic smooth for your foundations, then leave a little extra out front for your sidewalks. I had different attempts at ground texture to cover up. I thought that the styrene method for me would appear to be floating over the irregularities. This was part of my reasoning for the drywall. My other reason was the fact that I have dirt roads. If I had decided to have paved roads, I don't think I would have tried the drywall mud.

[Secondhandmodeler]

Hey folks, I thought I would shoot a progress pick. I still need to fill in the street a little. I also need to get my hands on some chalks. Sorry, the photo is blurry.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb117/secondhandmodeler/PB140040_edited.jpg

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb117/secondhandmodeler/PB140043.jpg

[UP2CSX]

Corey, those sidewalks look good with the dirt roads. My only suggestion would be to lighten up the color a little. Remember, sidewalks would have been fairly new in a town with dirt roads so it wouldn't look as weathered as the look you have.

If you want to add another touch, many towns made boardwalks that went across the intersection of the dirt roads to keep people's feet out of the mud. The board walk was raised just a few inches above the dirt road with the dirt humped up a little to allow vehicles to get over them. The boardwalks were about the width of a sidewalk and some towns had a one of the local hangers-on from one of the saloons who got free drinks to keep the boardwalks clear of mud.

Oh, one more thought. You need to add hitching posts and watering troughs for the thirsty horses. :)

[Secondhandmodeler]

Good idea, I still have the boardwalks from my earlier version. I may have to trim them down. Right now, the folks in my town are a little confused. One neighbor tells them that it's 1915, then the guy at the bank says it's 1925! Nobody seems to be able to pin down what year it is. No matter what happens, some one has to tell the guy in the second building from the left that air conditioners are not common yet! I'm trying to scoot my era a little futher forward so I can have more vehicles to choose from. I still have a ways to go on this scene. Christmas is coming so I'll try to get a few months worth of projects funded. Any idea if utility poles would be in the street or on the sidewalk? Thanks for the reply

[UP2CSX]

Corey,
LOL, I was going to mention that A/C unit but I figured you'd get to it in time. If it was up to me, I'd chose about 1923-25. Postwar prosperity had increased the number of motor vehicles significantly, both cars and trucks, but there were still a fair number of horse and wagons used for drayage. Anything much later and dirt main streets got to be more and more rare although dirt side streets survived for much longer.

Utility poles were a real problem in that era. Some poles were in the street and others were moved to the sidewalks were they were constructed. A lot depended on how wide the street was. If it was wide enough that the poles didn't interfere with traffic, they usually got left in the street. Parking got to be a bigger problem after the car came along and utility poles interfered with parking so they eventually all got moved to the sidewalk.

The big problem with utility poles initially was every company erected their own poles, so you had a mass of poles for the electric company, telephone company, and telegraph companies. That got old pretty quick and most towns had passed ordinances that all utilities except electricity be on the same pole. Since many towns had several competing telephone and telegraph companies, it wasn't unusual to see single poles with 10 or more crossarms. This was common until the 30's, when the depression caused most companies to consolidate. If you choose the period I propose, most towns would have moved utility poles to the sidewalks but there would be a lot of poles and the non-electric poles would have lots of crossarms. Some towns even ran electric lines on short poles along the roofs on main streets to reduce the clutter and make it safer for linesmen who would work on telephone and telegraph poles in close proximity to hot wires.

So, these are just some ideas for you. The one thing for sure is that you are going to need a lot of utility poles for a believable look. :)

[Secondhandmodeler]

Jim, thanks for all of that information. I think I'm just going to break down and buy poles from atlas. I was going to try to make my own, but with all of the cross arms I thought it would get ugly fast. I think I will place the poles in the street, next to the curb. Then I'll try to find a few street lamps to place on the sidewalk. I would love to string all of the wires for the poles. I think that would look really cool. Knowing that my little 4x8 will need to keep me busy for a while, I may save that task for another year!

[UP2CSX]

Yep, for $3.19 a dozen at http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/atl/atl775.htm, it really doesn't pay to make your own, even for a cheap guy like you. :)

As far as stringing wire, I have one word of advice - Don't! You'll have at least 4 crossarms with three or four insulators per side. Trying to keep all these lined up while hanging wire and not having the poles bending all over the place is hard enough. The really tough part is the first time you reach through that wire maze without realizing you're doing it and see about eight hours of work snapping around the layout. The most important thing is to get the insulators to ook real. Since most telephone and telegraph companies of that period used green glass insulators, just paint the Atlas insulators a dark brown and then dab each one with some green glitter nail polish. It will look very convincing and you won't even notice the lack of wire.

You can pick up post type street lights at a pretty reasonable price on e-bay so keep an eye out there.

[Secondhandmodeler]

Yep Jim, cheap is the name of the game. A few years ago, I decided to open a men's clothing store with another gentlemen. About a year into it, he started to get a little squirrely. He was dragging the store down with really bad decisions. I decided to finance his half of the store as well and let him go. It was the best decision for the store, bad decision for the cash flow. Being twenty nine years of age, I don't have that many assets . We use to spend money like drunken sailors, now we make Abraham Lincoln scream. It has been quite the humbling process having to ask my wife to spend ten dollars. I use to have to ask when spending a hundred or more. Sorry for the sob story, I just thought I'd give you an idea of where I'm coming from.

I will skip the wires! Popular opinion seems to be against the process and liability!

[nmaniac]

yeah joint compound!! I tinted mine with some ink to get the shades I wanted:D I used it on my switching layout but I took it to the edge I built forms for the sidewalk:o and for were the buidling would go once it was dry I cut "crack" lines into it will try and post some pics,my is near to scale and looks neat:D Only thing now I'm using non sanded grout coems pre-colored and in a lot more shades:D

[nmaniac]

Jim, I'm shocked :eek:I will post pics of mine, I painted mine with green pearl paint to look like "glass" and then ran 4 lines I sort of cheated by cutting off the other three :Dbut once done it looks really slick :D yeah I guess I have way to much free times on my hands(NOT),boy I can't wait till I retire......again :D

[UP2CSX]

Larry, not sure if you're talking about running telegraph wires or what. If so, it's a little more doable in N scale since the poles and wires aren't so high in the air. I've run wire in HO before and it has always turned out to be a disaster in terms of getting caught in the wires while rerailing a piece of rolling stock and having a night's work go "sprong" off on to the floor. :)

[dlobmwm3]

My favorite method: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/crowley/ashphalt_roads.htm

Change the color and cut some expantion joints and it's either concrete roads or sidewalks.

Thanks for sharing this. I will try this as it will save me lots of money.

[dlobmwm3]

My favorite method: http://www.telusplanet.net/public/crowley/ashphalt_roads.htm

Change the color and cut some expantion joints and it's either concrete roads or sidewalks.

Thanks for sharing this. I will try this as it will save me lots of money.