Planning for Signals: Need Help!

[RexHea]

Ok, fellows I am about ready to get serious with making plans for signals on my large home layout. What do I know? Not much! All I know about Railroad signals is...there is a red, a yellow, and a green light:o . I have a strong background with electronic/electrical hardware, but can only work with user friendly/high level programming. My system is a Digitrax Chief-200 with Lenz LS-150 stationary decoders for turnouts.

What I want to accomplish is to have block detection that would have feedback to signal lights on the layout, physical display panel, and a computer user interface. Right now, I have no desire to have automatic running of trains, but I do want automatic signals and the ability to control turnouts with the computer interface. I am not trying to model an exact prototypical control system, but would like to have one that makes sense to the average operator and is realistic in operation.

Questions:
1. Where do I start? Do I begin with determining where the blocks should be located?

2. How do I determine the best location and size for blocks?

3. Where is the best place to locate target signals?

4. What kind of hardware is needed?

5. Sources of hardware?

6. Software for computer and sources?

7. And other questions that I'm too dumb to know to ask:D ??

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

[NZRMac]

Good place to start, http://www.dallee.com/site_index.htm

http://www.integratedsignalsystems.com/signals/Default.htm

Just a couple of places:D

I'm not looking forward to this part, not sure why I love wiring all these kind of things, but getting them in the right place is kinda tricky!!

Ken.

[grande man]

Rex, I think I'd start by getting a mental plan of how to block the mains. Keep in mind, for three aspect signals, you're going to need some reasonably sized blocks. Your printed track plan might be helpful to draw this out. Any sidings will need signalling. For the yards at the mine, lumber mill, and steel mill, I'd probably just use dwarf signals, if any at all. For the main yard, dwarfs would be great and a signal bridge leading to the main would be WAY cool. An informal operating session might help show where some of the signals need to be placed on the layout. That's something you might consider.

If it were me, I'd go with a Digitrax boards since you've got their system. Keith may well be at the ARG meet this month. He can give you some very good prices on the electronics and is a great guy to deal with.

We'll get Ray to give you a checkout on his signal system. I think he can control most of the layout (including turnouts) on his PC.

[kenw]

I highly recommend
http://home.houston.rr.com/lrt/

[RexHea]

Ok, I have checked out all the links you guys posted and appreciate the help in getting a reference file going.

Has anyone setup the JMRI for a computer generated control panel? It seems to do what some of the more sophisticated and expensive softwares do. I just don't want to get in a corner later on and find out the software isn't capable of the "whole thing". Anyone have advice on software?

Do you know of any links to sites that have some examples of laying out a signaling system for MR?

Eric: You have some good ideas.
When I installed my track, I setup some blocks where I knew they would be needed because several are long runs of hidden track.
Most of the blocks are still there, but I have made so many changes since then I will have to make some modifications to have three aspect signals. In fact, I will have to see if it will help or be confusing for the three aspect. A simple go/stop signal may be the easiest for ops, but not really what I want.

I have a bunch of dwarfs that I will use for sidings off the mains and wasn't going to put anything in the yards as they are all ground throws and will be color coded. I thought that I would use the target pole/bridge types (??) for block occupancy only.

[HaggisKennedy]

I think as a general rule, you should have a signal at every switch, in both directions. Those will control the trains as they're passing by/through, etc. For switches in urban areas, like street running, I don't know for sure. But, out where trains normally are, you should have some sort of signal.

As far as blocks, the block size should hold your longest train. Remember that each train affects 5 blocks, the block it's in, the block it just exited, and the block prior to that. Plus, it will affect the block it's headed into and the block beyond that (that one will give a warning to diverge into a siding if there's an approaching train).

On my little empire, it's not big enough for all these blocks, so I only put signals where there is a switch.

Kennedy

[RexHea]

...As far as blocks, the block size should hold your longest train. Remember that each train affects 5 blocks, the block it's in, the block it just exited, and the block prior to that. Plus, it will affect the block it's headed into and the block beyond that (that one will give a warning to diverge into a siding if there's an approaching train).Kennedy

Yikes! I didn't think about all those blocks. I need to scratch my head a little harder to consider all of them.:confused:

[HaggisKennedy]

Well, that's the way today's prototypes do it. CTC is set up so that you don't go from a green block to a red block. You *HAVE* to have an intermediate (yellow) block in between; the train can have time to slow, and it gives the hogger a warning to expect something up the road. Some roads have 'home' signals, which will give you the signal aspect *two* signals away.

I'm not real sure how it was done in the '50s. You may want to see how the Pennsey, or B&O, or NYC or GN or SP did it and work up something. It appears that you're road is freelanced, so you won't have to have an exact duplicate, but as long as you follow the appropriate standard of the day, you''ll be OK.

Doesn't the GCOR have signal aspect data in it?

Kennedy

[HaggisKennedy]

OK, forgot this. Do a search on "Automatic Block Signals". That will give you a list of sites which explains how these things work. That'll give you a background so when you do your thing on your layout, it'll make sense.

BTW, somebody on another list set up block signals on the cheap. He bought a pile of those cheap-o Bachmann two-position signal stands. He drilled out the back of the green lite and glued in a mini LED. The lead was fastened to the legs of the signal stand, and wired to a toggle switch. I was all powered by a wall wart, I think.

All he wanted to do was to show HIGH GREEN, by flipping a switch. Dark meant STOP on the RR. It was manual switch flipping, but that's how CTC is done anyway; the dispatcher flips the switch to route. No RED ASPECT was shown. Simple and cheap...

:D

Kennedy

[NZRMac]

Here's another one you may not have seen. There's a thread over on the dark side, layouts forum.

http://www.wsaeng.com/Signaling_Solution/Products.html

Ken.

[RexHea]

Sorry fellows. I just realized that my last post must have fallen into the Black Hole during the server upgrade. All I posted was a thanks for addition web sites and that I was amazed at the hits on a search for ABS.

I guess now is the time to dig into my track plan and start figuring out where to put the blocks. I will post more as things develop.
Thanks again.

[B_Kosanda]

Rex,
I have a background in electronics and designed/built all my signal electronics from TTL gates and opto-electric sensors between the rails. The amount of logic to drive the signals for a typical passing siding is fairly large. It will fill a wire-wrapped circuit card 4x6 inches. This includes approach signals and siding exit signals. I have all my sidings signaled now, but this is a large task. If I were to do it all over again, I'm not sure I would have done it any other way. IF you were to use a computer, I think you could write a BASIC program to read block occupancy detectors. You would also need to build occupancy detectors and then some kind of serial interface to tie it to the computer. I assume all this stuff can be bought too, but it would be half the fun to actually figure out how to do it yourself.

Bill

[cprman]

Hi Rex ( and of course everyone else too!) Don't spend any money yet until you guys see the layout here ! Hope to see you guys soon ! ( ARG MEET ) . Ray:)

[RexHea]

Bill, thanks for the post. I have thought about getting the cobwebs out of my watered down 'Spice' software (and my brain) and make an attempt to design my own system. It could be a hobby within a hobby, within a hobby, within ...., and have the possibility of allowing for more and even different combinations of operations now offered by the manufacturers. I know it would be a lot of fun and certainly sharpen my mind, but for now I believe component level design would take more time than I have to give up.

Concerning block detection, the one that I have found to be interesting is the one based on current sink within the block. By sensing a 'power user' in the block, you have continuous detection throughout the block. I am still not that learned about this system, but the concept certainly is worth looking into.

Ray, I am looking forward to my visit at your Depot and very interested in learning how you setup your signal system. I will bring my notepad and I hope you are ready for a deluge of questions. See you Saturday!

[enjineerbill]

Rex my friend,

I see you have more than enough info to get you going and keep you confused. Yet I can't walk away without my two-cents.

I ran on CTC with the WCL. There were two types of signals installed along the line in CTC territory. Intermediate, and ABSOLUTE.

Intermediate signals control the flow of traffic according to what is in the block ahead. But they do NOT govern movement through a control point ie,..interlockings, turnouts, etc,.. They also govern movement in that some intermediates are referred to as 'approach' signals. These signals govern the movement(speed) of a train that is approaching an ABSOLUTE signal. Intermediates can display most of the following aspects; clear(green), approach(yellow), restricting(red) and so on. Some railroads require a train to stop and proceed if encountering a restricted signal, while others allow the train to keep moving. The rules for signals are as different for signals as paint schemes are for railroads.

Absolute signals are just that, Absolute. They control movement through interlockings, turnouts, junctions, and anywhere else a train must make some sort of a conflicting movement with other trains. They are (usually) marked by an 'A' or the absence of a number plate (again railroad specific). If one of these is red, a train MUST stop before passing the signal. HOWEVER, a dispatcher has the authority to 'talk' you by one of these signals. Again some aspects include (but not limited to) ; Green=Clear/proceed, Yellow=approach prepared to stop, Flashing Yellow= approach next signal prepared to pass it a reduced speed, Red=STOP, Lunar(white)=Restricting/must make movement prepared to stop within 1/2 the range of vision for any obstruction(not the EXACT rule but you get the picture), and many variations of these are possible!

Rex, I don't mean to confuse, I just wanted to give a little 'insight' to you and maybe help answer some questions about CTC. Course if you go track warrant you wouldn't need signals at all;) .

If I can answer anything else, please ask.

Johnny

[RexHea]

Thank you Johnny for a wealth of information. It certainly helps me to figure out what is going on and I am sure others can benefit from this. I believe one of the most interesting facts that have popped up is the lack of a standard for all the railroads. I guess it doesn't matter all that much since they mostly use their own tracks. Actually, this is a plus for a freelance modeler in that he can easily say, "...well, that's the way it was done on the ---railroad.";)

I would like to encourage all to post in this thread with any knowledge or questions they may have about signals and planning for layout signals. I realize that many do not bother having them, but the reason may just be a lack of understanding them, as myself. Thanks all.

[grande man]

Hey Rex. I've got one little tech tip Ray and I talked about last night that you may want to keep in mind. The track power indicator LED on a UP 5 will draw enough current for a BDL168 to tag the block as occupied. You'll need a separate track power buss for the UP's if you want the LEDs to function correctly. I also suggested a "mini block" between detected blocks as a way around this problem. What I'm thinking is a mini block of maybe 1" that obviously isn't wired to the 168 but is wired to the UP's indicator light to show track power status. Things to think about... :)

ETA. I found a site that may interest you. Some of the graphics weren't loading for me, but it's some good info... http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Signal/aspects_us_sou.html
Notice that the chart shows a reference the rule number they pertain to. The info CJ gave you might cross over to these aspect diagrams.

[RexHea]

Thanks Eric for the heads-up. Right now I don't use the LED power indicator on the UP5 so I am in good shape there. After seeing cprman's signals, I know why you are so excited about them. Gosh, they sure add a lot to the realizism and really make it easy for multiple users to avoid pasture sidings and head butts.

Also appreciate the link. I like the simple way they show all the signals.

:)

[RexHea]

Just thought that I would add a note. I found loads of information on planning and wiring layout signals at the Digitrax web site. You have to go to the Manuals section and download some of the actual equipment handbooks, but they are loaded with 'how-to's'.
Now to study :confused: and study :confused: and study and...

[RexHea]

Eric: I have been planning the location of detection sections and one question keeps coming up.

If I break up a hidden track into two sections, then when I have a train entering one end the light at the other end will show "Yellow". Now a train is approaching the other end to enter the hidden area. He see's "Yellow" and proceeds forward. OH,OH! Now what? K-a-bang!! Right?

[grande man]

Eric: I have been planning the location of detection sections and one question keeps coming up.

If I break up a hidden track into two sections, then when I have a train entering one end the light at the other end will show "Yellow". Now a train is approaching the other end to enter the hidden area. He see's "Yellow" and proceeds forward. OH,OH! Now what? K-a-bang!! Right?

Rex, the BDL168 will know the direction of train travel. Typically, when a train enters a section of single track, the signals "cascade down", signal by signal, to their most restrictive aspect all the way to the next siding. The first train to enter single track territory should therefore have priority from the system.

[HaggisKennedy]

Eric: I have been planning the location of detection sections and one question keeps coming up.

If I break up a hidden track into two sections, then when I have a train entering one end the light at the other end will show "Yellow". Now a train is approaching the other end to enter the hidden area. He see's "Yellow" and proceeds forward. OH,OH! Now what? K-a-bang!! Right?

I don't think that will happen. The way I think it works is that the block that your train is heading into will be yellow on both ends. Once your train enters, it should go red both ends.

The far train will already be in a yellow block, and will be in a position to stop at the next signal should it be red. Conversly, you should be in a yellow block as well, depending on where the other train is.

The key is to have enough blocks out there to make this work right. If you only have two blocks total, then it may be a problem.

Kennedy

[RexHea]

I have attached a drawing to explain my question a little better. The way I see it with two trains of opposite forward directions, there is the possiblility of both trains being in the "Hidden" area at the same time, same track. (Keep in mind that the area is hidden with no visual signals for block B on the inside.)

Please correct this if inaccurate:
When train #1 moving CCW enters "C", the signal would be yellow for train #2. Train #2 then enters "A". Now I have two trains meeting in the hidden area.

If both trains were moving in the same direction, then I could see how having the extra block (B) would be helpful. Otherwise, it looks to me like I would be better off without "B" since it would serve no other purpose than to give a location to the main panel. I need to add that some of these hidden tracks are 25-30 feet long. The thoughts of having it broken down into sections is appealing in being able to track the trains through this area, but not at the expense of safety.

I may not be (probably) understanding the capabilities of the BDL168. There may be something that it does or can do to take care of this.
Grande man: By it recognizing direction, does this do anything different than what I have decribed? When you say cascades down the line, will it give a "red" all the way to a passing siding so that train #2 can take the siding before it gets to the tunnel entrance (Block A)?? How does it distinguish between a passing siding and a regular block (detection section)? Can a detection area detect only and not throw off the signal sequence?

Boy, am I confusing myself or what :confused: :confused:! Also, I don't have a "number of blocks" problem other than too many...probably about 25-30 for the layout.:D

[B_Kosanda]

Rex,
I have looked into this A LOT MORE since last we spoke. I have decided to use Bruce Chubb's CMRI (Computer Model Railroad Interface) to drive my signals. (read, get rid of what I've got now) I have been doing a lot of research and I think it would be better to use a computer for a large layout. See the site for an intro to CMRI. http://www.jlcenterprises.net/MR.htm The CMRI system involves building a couple circuit cards that connect to the RS232 port on an old computer. Bruce Chubb's circuit cards are basically large input and output driver cards. The inputs sample track occupancy detectors and the outputs drive siganls. The whole deal is driven by a BASIC program running in the PC. I think this is the way to go for a large layout, since there is only a one time investment in the hardware to get it started. For a small layout, it probably is overkill. I have stumbled onto a whole community of CMRI users that provide support for each other. It looks like it would cost around $300 (guess) to get into it, including all the block occupancy detectors and the CMRI system components.

Bill

[RexHea]

Bill, I just went over to that web site. All I can say is "wow". That is really getting into it from the ground up. I also visited some of the layout sites they have links to. They are huge and the wiring looks like a telephone central office. Thanks for the link.

[HaggisKennedy]

The way it's drawn, Train 1 is in Block C, which gives Block B a Yellow. In real life, I *THINK* Block A will go yellow as well, because the system is designed to be fail safe, and if B goes Yellow, it could well turn Red, and I don't think the system permits going from Green to Red directly.

Your situation is something that was faced in real life before CTC; the only thing the engineers had to rely on were the ABS signals out there. So, I can't see the signals being any other way.

Note, however, that what you show should never happen since there should be a siding there somewhere, for the meet. Under timetable/train orders, there would be meet instructions. Same with DTC/TWC. Under CTC, the dispatcher would route one of the trains into the siding. If C was green, then A should be Yellow, to route Train 2 into the siding. If Block A was Green, the Block C would be Yellow to get Train 1 into the siding. The alternative could be both A and C being Yellow, with one train going to be put into the siding.

The bottom line, in my mind, is that there should be a siding in one of the three blocks. And if there isn't, the dispatcher will be fired on the spot, given the current train locations in the diagram.

Did you post this question to the OPSIG Yahoo group? Somebody there would know; there's a bunch of ex-dispatcher types (and current ones) there.

As far as what the BDL168 can do, I don't know about that.

Kennedy

[RexHea]

Thank you Kennedy for some very good info. I think the easiest way to handle this is to have the hidden section as 1 block only. The track is all ready in and I can't install a passing siding in the hidden area without a lot of difficulty.

The problem I face is indeed simple for a prototype railroad and a dispatcher. However, I have to consider operating sessions that may not have a dispatcher and include those that are unfamiliar with the layout.

I hope to set the signals up so that one can move a train just by following the signal indications and knowing where everyone is on his track. I am afraid that if I have a yellow signal that an operator will go forward without paying attention to the other guy. Maybe, as I get further along, I will be able to see a better way. There are passing sidings before the locations of the trains in the drawing and maybe the signals can be arranged so one of the trains will take a siding. Thanks again.

[B_Kosanda]

Rex,
I don't use the CMRI system and I have tons of wires under my layout. These are just to connect the occupancy detectors (phototransistors on my layout) to the signal circuit cards and the signals themselves.

I also think most of the guys on the jlc enterprises site are at the far extreme of what you could do. I received a copy of the BASIC program that one guy wrote for his layout. The file is over 300KB, not sure how many lines of code, but way out of control. I just want to make my signals operate prototypically on my 25x25 layout. I'll use about 25 occupancy detectors and maybe 20 signals. A lot less than the folks on the jlc site. I'll keep you guys posted on how his goes.

Bill

[RexHea]

Bill,
You are right in saying that many on the JLC site take it to the extreme. I would love to be able to do the wiring jobs that they do, but it would cost a small fortune to buy the punch blocks, wire routers, cable tray, and etc. that they use and I really don't want to eat up my time with building pc boards. What I can say now is it looks like I'll be going with Digitrax signaling systems, but I still have to figure out a good software. I am still not sure about the JMRI even though everything I've heard has been positive.

One question for you, Bill. What have you found best to make your small gauge wire terminations/splices under the layout? I have been just soldering and using shrink tubing which is a real pain in the back, neck, legs, arms, fingers, toes...:D

[HaggisKennedy]

Thank you Kennedy for some very good info. I think the easiest way to handle this is to have the hidden section as 1 block only. The track is all ready in and I can't install a passing siding in the hidden area without a lot of difficulty.

That may be the best. If the operator can't see the signal, it shouldn't be there anyway. But.....

The problem I face is indeed simple for a prototype railroad and a dispatcher. However, I have to consider operating sessions that may not have a dispatcher and include those that are unfamiliar with the layout.

I hope to set the signals up so that one can move a train just by following the signal indications and knowing where everyone is on his track. I am afraid that if I have a yellow signal that an operator will go forward without paying attention to the other guy. Maybe, as I get further along, I will be able to see a better way. There are passing sidings before the locations of the trains in the drawing and maybe the signals can be arranged so one of the trains will take a siding. Thanks again.

Even so, they way you want to set it up to run is close to what was done back in the day of Timetable and Train Orders. You sorta have the timetable part in that the hogger sorta knows who's on the track in front of him, but he really doesn't know where (in the example location). In this situation, this is where TOs work; it would tell him to have taken a siding he previously passed and wait for a meet. In that instance, the signals wouldn't really tell him to go there, the TO would. The signal will still tell him Green, but he knows by Order and his Timetable that the other train was on his way towards him.

If you don't have a dispatcher, you could give the hoggers a map with all of the signals and sidings marked, and give them their TOs to tell them what to do and when. So, in your case, the train would take a siding, and wait for the other guy to pass. Then, he'd go on afterwards, until there's another meet. If there's no meet, he can proceed based on the signal indications.

I think you can set it up where the siding is it's own block, so when the train goes into it, the main track is now clear, and should show a Yellow aspect so the other train can go through, as long as the switch is lined correctly. Once he's passed through, the switch is lined back for the main, and the Red aspect at the end of the siding will turn yellow (for diverging). This train can now exit. Remember, at a switch, there are at least two signals on the same line. Sometimes three, if it's bi-directional ABS/CTC.

Now, if you want the signal to tell him to take a siding, you really need a dispatcher. Or, some kind of CTC operation. Some folks use a computer to do that; the Panel Pro feature of Decoder Pro I think does that. You have to have a computer hooked up to your layout, and use DCC, but the computer does all of the routing work once the trains are running and the block occupancy directors are functional and the PC acts as a dispatcher.

I don't do that level yet, but I bought a used 233mHz Acer for $50 at a computer show 3-4 years ago, and it's hooked up to my layout. It has a nice, compact LCD monitor ($299) for space reasons, and I got a freebie HP Inkjet printer. I may or may not put this PC on the network.

You should download a freebie copy of Train Dispatcher game and play it. It'll show you how it all works. TD3 is freeware, TD4 is the latest and you have to pay. I've played with it, and it gives good insight on it all.

Kennedy

[HaggisKennedy]

Some folks solder the feeders to the bus, then use liquid electrical tape to cover it. They just slather it on, and it seems to work fine. Others use the good quality suitcase connectors. Especially if their bus wires are stranded; some say nicking a solid core wire causes electrical problems.

Kennedy

[RexHea]

Kennedy,
Thank you. That operating procedure is exactly what I need to open my mind up better to what is going on. Lets see if I have it right.
(In MRR, of course) Without a dispatcher or CTC, it comes down to the hogger must take the responsiblility of knowing where the other guy is in the hidden areas to take the correct action by 'TO' and choose siding or no siding. RIGHT? i.e, The hogger in the yellow (drawing) would have checked the 'TO' at his last siding and 'eyeballed' the other guy to help see if he needed to go in or not. "...anybody thar?":D

Just thinking a little more about this and what you said about the computer program: If I can set it up so that if GREEN hogger enters block C or previous block then the YELLOW hogger will automatically be routed to his last siding before the hidden area then it helps the safety issue. I want to stay away from too much automation, but if I would be able to setup individual situations for auto routing it would be great. I believe that I will look into that game and get a better understanding.

I had a friend that owns a Computer shop build me a PC out of old trade-in parts just for this purpose.

Right now I solder all my feeders to a main 12 gauge buss, but by installing signals I will have to run all new wires to one side of the each feed to setup detection sections. I was hoping for a magical way of connecting these zillions of wires. I thought about crimp-on butt connectors. I already have a tool for them, but connectors are expensive.

PROTO Question: Circa 1950
If I were the local peddler freight making my rounds and using mainline trackage for my rounds, and I got delayed up at Peckerwood's sawmill in the boonies by having to do some extra spotting, how would I keep from getting ran over by the SOUTHERN CRESCENT when I started to return to the mainyard? Would I have to be on a schedule? Would I notify a dispatcher somehow? How would I notify the dispatcher from the boonies?

[HaggisKennedy]

Kennedy,
Thank you. That operating procedure is exactly what I need to open my mind up better to what is going on. Lets see if I have it right.
(In MRR, of course) Without a dispatcher or CTC, it comes down to the hogger must take the responsiblility of knowing where the other guy is in the hidden areas to take the correct action by 'TO' and choose siding or no siding. RIGHT? i.e, The hogger in the yellow (drawing) would have checked the 'TO' at his last siding and 'eyeballed' the other guy to help see if he needed to go in or not. "...anybody thar?":D

Not quite. I would think the only time when there wasn't a dispatcher was back in the days of The Best Friend of Charleston. If you had more than a couple of trains, there was probably some sort of dispatcher or instructions written for specific times. The latter presumes that the train was 'on time'; if it wasn't, Cornfield Meet!

The TO will give specific instructions to the hogger, but it should be generated by the dispatcher so he can provide the most current instructions to each train. He knows this because each depot on the line has a telegraph operator there to report back to the dispatcher office. The dispatcher then updates his daily track chart.

In your example, the Yellow hogger would have taken a siding and would not be allowed to leave until the Green train has passed. Since TO is not real time, nor are TT 100% accurate, the TO would account for this by providing absolute instructions.

HOWEVER! There are times that a TO would provide alternate orders if a train got somewhere early; they would be authorized to move to the next block safely. This is mainly when a train would finish switching early, and they're back on the line earlier than expected. They still have authority to be on the main, but they're just there earlier. In those instances, and since trains normally didn't run that far ahead of schedule, they might be able to make the next siding, presuming that the time the get there doesn't overlap the oncoming train's timetable. I say that because in the grand scheme of things, if the TT says a train is supposed to be at DEPOT A, at 9am, it won't go past Depot A prior to 9am. Note that timetables such as this doesn't mark a time to be at a siding (unless it's at a depot), So, the early train can move forward. I think that's how it works; I'm not fully conversant with TT/TO operations.

Just thinking a little more about this and what you said about the computer program: If I can set it up so that if GREEN hogger enters block C or previous block then the YELLOW hogger will automatically be routed to his last siding before the hidden area then it helps the safety issue. I want to stay away from too much automation, but if I would be able to setup individual situations for auto routing it would be great. I believe that I will look into that game and get a better understanding.

Probably. But, since you're not really running a dispatcher, you need to be more in tune with absolute track orders. That's the safe way.

PROTO Question: Circa 1950
If I were the local peddler freight making my rounds and using mainline trackage for my rounds, and I got delayed up at Peckerwood's sawmill in the boonies by having to do some extra spotting, how would I keep from getting ran over by the SOUTHERN CRESCENT when I started to return to the mainyard? Would I have to be on a schedule? Would I notify a dispatcher somehow? How would I notify the dispatcher from the boonies?

Your order would say that if you're not back on the main in time, you'd already been told via your TO to stay put until the SOUTHERN CRESCENT has gone by. Alternately, since the orders will also tell you to take a siding somewhere else down the road, if you think you can make it, you can try. But, the orders don't actually say that. It says you have to be in the siding by XXXX time and why; I think the Rules book may also specify some amount of time prior to that time you have to be in there. In other words, in there without fouling the main. The Conductor in the caboose would re-line the switch for the main, thus providing a Green block for the SC. Between the TO and the timetable, the crew should be able to make a decision.

After the SC has passed, the TO should provide instructions for the rest of the trip. Either way, the hogger should try to make up time so that he gets back on schedule.

In the TT/TO era, the telegraph operators at each depot will report the trains going by. Or, the dispatcher will ring up the depot: "Depot G, has Peddler gone by yet?" If the answer is no, then the dispatcher starts to look down the road to see what other traffic is going to happen, since Peddler is going to foul up somebody. He'd have draft orders ready if need be, so when Depot G reports him going by, he'll send them to the next Depot for pickup. Or, if it's too late, he'll tell the Telegraph Operator to set the signal that there will be orders to pick up. That order supersedes the first set, and takes into account all of things that are current. There have been many a time where Depot G said "No, he hasn't been by yet.", the dispatcher says "set signal for orders to be picked up.", and while the dispatcher is dictating, the train in question comes by. There have been times where the signal hasn't been set in time. Or, the train in question has had to stop because the dispatcher is still dictating. It's worse if he has to dictate more than one TO (for multiple trains). Remember that you have to hoop them up to the cab (for the hogger) as well as the caboose (where the conductor is).

Getting back to your other question, if you had a radio, you could tell the dispatcher what happened that way. If there are no further orders on the TO, you ask for them when you get to the next depot at the last destination. Dispatchers will always designate an endpoint at a location where the hogger can get a new TO. Only time that doesn't happen is if they're using a trackside phone and it's broken. The Rules book should have a contingency for this.

Kennedy

[HaggisKennedy]

A couple other things.

If the Yellow Hogger is in the siding with instructions to not leave, and the Green Hogger derails at the end of Block B, he's stuck. Which is what you want anyway, since the line is disrupted ahead. If the Green Hogger is grossly late (like if they had a break-in-two or a hotbox setout), same thing. He's stuck until line is cleared. This is where the depot operators are the field eyes for the dispatcher, and he updates locations and such, so he can issue new orders to be on top of things.

Regarding the Proto example. Since your Peddler is a turn, most likely the TO would have told it to be in the siding by a certain time (in plenty of time) to allow the SOUTHERN CRESCENT to go by without slowing. The Peddler may or may not go by another depot prior to the siding. Thinking about what I previously wrote, I'm not sure if the rules allow you to not go into the siding, even though the SC has already gone by. I would think you could, but I don't know for sure, and it might be in the rulebook. I should ask a dispatcher about that sometime.

Your TO is your schedule, these are normally handled as 'extras' (in fact, the GN designated all freight trains as 'extras') so they don't really have to be in the Timetable. At some point, it expires/ends so the hogger will have to get new orders at one of the depots down the road. Or, it could handle the entire day. I don't really know because I'm more familiar with TT/TO for the main trains (because those are the examples that come up the most).

Kennedy

[RexHea]

Again, a lot of helpful and good info to give me a better understanding of operations. Sure gives me a lot to think on.

So the Peddler, even though he is kind of a milk run (Hooterville) sort of guy, still needs to operate close to a schedule...if not for him...at least for the mainline train's schedule??

What I hope to accomplish is to set up the layout w/signals/computer so that I can get away from the hodge-podge operations that I now do. I want to be able to operate with a couple of trains at the same time with some formality when I am by myself and then be able to go into a more structured mode of operations when I have an op session with others. I want to avoid making it too complicated and taking away the fun, but at the same time I would like everyone to be able and move their trains from assigned point A to B with some certainty that there won't be a head-on meet.

Hang around because I will be coming back with more questions. Thanks Bunch!

[HaggisKennedy]

We should consider moving this to one of the other sections, on Operations, since that's what we're talking about now. I don't want to move the entire thread, just the operations part of the discussion.

At any rate, the Peddler has a schedule, because A) he has to service various industries who may be expecting his services at a certain time, and B) he's not the only train on the mainline. The others need to know whereabouts he will be. Even though he's probably the lowest on the priority pecking order, he still occupies the track. So, if nothing else, the other trains should know he's out there.

In real life, hoggers know the territory, and they know that there are these kinds of trains out there. Since we MRR types aren't living this, and we have guest operators, we have to add a little bit of info which may not be that obvious in real life.

Yes, you can make it complicated; some folks do because the like the prototype fidelity. I got zinged over on the OPSIG List when I said that when things got that complicated, it's not fun anymore because it's now work. To which somebody said "You're in the wrong group". My reply was that the fact that I don't want every I dotted and T crossed doesn't mean I'm not interested in how it really is supposed to be. Not to mention how I know what to cut out if I don't know what there is to cut out.

Like you, I don't want it complicated, but I also want to have some things out there which are out of my control. Like, pass through traffic while I'm switching. Or, some kind of scheduled pickup at the interchange. We don't operate in a vacuum just because we're operating solo. Staying in that mindset will keep you safe when your operating group is over.

The computer is a great tool to help here, because it does a lot of the paperwork stuff, and can be set up to introduce stuff onto the layout for operations, both solo and group. Most of the canned stuff is relatively simple, but can be made complex for the rivet-counter types who would rather have their Train Orders provided on a flimsey....

:D

Kennedy

[HaggisKennedy]

Oh, regarding the last comment; I think I can do that. I have a TT font that's called "Used Typewriter", which prints a font that looks like the 5th carbon flimsey. I use that on my railfan business cards....

:D

Kennedy

[RexHea]

Yeah, you're right. I should have posted the Peddler question on the Ops thread, but thought I would grab the opportunity. Gazooks! There are so many topics and sub-topics it is hard to keep track of them all.

I know what you mean about some of the more hard core forums/threads. I believe many forget that MRR is a hobby using models and is meant to give us enjoyment. Where we can strive for accuracy, there are limits to when it stays a fun hobby or when it becomes an obsessive behavior by trying to achieve the impossible goal of proto-perfect. I choose FUN!;) :D

I really appreciate all the insight. By clearing a lot of cob webs, you have taken away a lot my apprehension and put the excitement back into my signals project. I will keep posting my signals progress/questions, so stay tuned.
:)
REX

[HaggisKennedy]

This conversation on signalling here last month is being covered somewhat on the RyOps and LDSIG groups. Somebody had pretty much the same situation you have as shown in the sketch you posted.

It was stated by a RR employee as well as a couple other folks who are knowledgeable about operations that when trains are in the siding, there are only two ways it could leave. One is if they have a Train Order or Track Warrant which specifically allows them to leave. Second, in CTC, CTC will allow them to leave (this would be signal indication). If your RR is not CTC equipped, ABS/Block Signals DO NOT govern movement; Train Orders do.

In both cases, if you give a GREEN to one of the trains, the system will automatically prevent any kind of Green/Yellow to any oncoming trains that could result in a cornfield. But, they can be routed into a siding.

Kennedy

[RexHea]

Hi Kennedy! Glad your still hanging around. I have continued my research on signaling and have recognized the need for more sidings for 2-way single track operation (1-way is easy). I have installed two additional sidings that should take care of my lower level track.

Gads the more I get into this thing the more complex it gets. The biggest challenge seems to be at the sidings and having an overlap block to prevent two meeting trains simultaneously entering a section for a pasture meet.

I have also found out that the software to control the signals can be programmed for any scenerio that is needed. So a West bound past its siding will send a red down the line to the East bound approaching its siding having him take a siding. In my example, train #2 would never have been allowed to get that far.
I think!:confused: :eek: :D
This is a pretty good site
http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/abs_st_sp/index.html#example

[HaggisKennedy]

This is the post I was referring to:

-----

> I wasn't planning to plant signals just anywhere either. I am planning
> signals at all mainline turnouts (to protect that turnout) and either
> direction between sidings. My logic is that if a train is on the tracks
> between two sidings, I don't want another train to move onto that track,
> since there's nowhere to pass if they happen to be going in opposite
> directions.
=======================
You basically have two choices : some sort of block system (automatic
or manual) or some version of CTC (we'll rule out current of traffic
since it appears its bi-directional single track).

If its something other than CTC, you will still need train orders (or
equivalent) to control the movements of the trains. The signals will
be a pair of signals, one facing in each direction beyond the switches
at the ends of the siding. What keeps two trains from entering the
single track between sidings is the train orders, not the signals, by
the way. Between sidings you can have pairs of signals, one facing in
each direction.

In CTC you will have 3 signals at each siding switch, one governing
each route over the switch. The one nearest the points of the switch
will be a two headed signal so it can display a diverging signal. In
CTC the signal indication governs movement. Between sidings you can
have pairs of signals, one facing in each direction.

-----

Kennedy

[HaggisKennedy]

Did we ever post this site?

http://www.ctcparts.com/about.htm

Another quote:

-----

> Ok, so what's to keep two trains from meeting between sidings, if you
> break the main into blocks between sidings?

In CTC, the logic of the machine will only set one of the signals at
either end to a condition that will allow a train to leave. For
example, if you have two sidings, Anna and Bess with Bess east of
Anna. If you set the signal at the east end of Anna to "Proceed" it
will normally set all westbound signals between Bess and Anna to
there most restrictive conditions. The signal at the west end of
Bess will be an absolute signal with Red meaning "Stop". The blocks
between stations are designed to allow following train behind the
first train without needs for them to wait until the train reaches
Bess or the first train having to flag should it become stopped on
the main with two signals behind it.

-----

And:

-----

> I haven't read any other replies yet, but in MY world, the top signal
> head would be the main, the bottom would be the siding. A thrown turnout
> (sending the train to the diverging track) would show a red signal on the
> top head, and green (assuming no train in the siding) on the bottom.
============================
If its green that means that the next signal is not red.

So if the bottom signal is green that means you have him lined through
the siding, in one end and out the other.

If the bottom signal is yellow then that means the next signal probably
is red and you are lining the train into the siding to stay.

If the bottom signal is lunar, that means there is no occupancy
detection in the siding and you don't know what the condition of the
siding is but you are headed into the siding.

If I were doing a signal system, I would display a red over yellow or
red over lunar for a diverging signal into a siding. The only place I
would display a red over green is at a junction.

-----

Kennedy

[HaggisKennedy]

Yeah, the Lundgren site is good. His illustrations are a lot like what you find in the Train Dispatcher game.

PS. Was wondering when your next question would be!

:D

Kennedy

[RexHea]

Thanks for some very very good info, Kennedy. It will help a lot with my design. The more I work with drawing my schematic, the more questions I face. With your info and review of some of these web sites, I have at least been able to move from totally confused to only confused.:D

I have to confess that I have only been devoting half my model time to the signals. I have been trying to get a layout extension installed to enhance operating capabilities. Now is a good time to do this and plan out the signals for this area at the same time. I am only going to lay track in this area for now and hold on the scenery so hopefully, within a week or so, I will be going full blast with the actual installation of block/signal control for the layout.

Having to add signals to my existing track layout is difficult since I don't have all the "should have's" in place. I have to try to fit these in and end up with a compromise between proto and model in some areas. I feel confident that these few areas will work and be close enough for realistic operation.

I am strongly leaning toward Railroad & Co. software for the computer part of this project. I have seen it in use at a hobby shop in Birmingham and it is absolutely amazing. Its capabilities will allow for any combination of operation you want: ABS, CTC, full automation, combinations of all. It is pricey, but it doesn't require any programming skills other than following the bouncing ball. http://www.freiwald.com/

Question: You say I can use the same "mast" for 2-way direction, single track, signal heads? Man, this will save me a bunch of $$.

It won't be long before a deluge of questions will be flying your way.:D

[HaggisKennedy]

It's confusing because in real life, it's confusing if you read every RR's operating procedures. Since they're all different, it gets overwhelming. Which is why some folks make it as simple as can be, so it doesn't overwhelm the casual visiting operator. Somebody said that engineers will travel over the same route maybe 300 times a year. An operator on a MRR layout, maybe 30 times a year. So, they don't get that reinforcement with the signalling rules.

I don't recall saying that the same mast can be used for 2-way direction, unless you're referring to a lower signal to diverge (this was one of the quotes above). You can use the same bridge for all the signals, but normally, a mast only faces one direction. That goes back to the 'engineer on the right, so signals on the right" mentality. I don't think I've ever seen two-way signals on the same mast in real life.

Kennedy

[RexHea]

Ok Kennedy on the mast, but dang...that's too bad for me. It would have saved me a bunch not having to buy or make for both directions.

I would like to add for those that are looking on: Yes, installing signals can be confusing and even frustrating, but the research and planning is so much fun that it is worth the effort...not to mention the end results.

Where you at Grande man? Your the one that got me fired up with these things.:D
REX

[grande man]

I'm still here...;) As for two sided signals, check this one out from the old L&N.

http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL615/3680850/8822083/121234007.jpg

Is that what you had in mind? I'm not sure the SRR used them, but you might check around. Are you going to make the signals or buy them?

[RexHea]

I'm still here...;) As for two sided signals, check this one out from the old L&N.
Is that what you had in mind? I'm not sure the SRR used them, but you might check around. Are you going to make the signals or buy them?

Yeah, that's it. I may use something like that on the backside of the layout and keep the pretty stuff up front. I will probably have a mix of homemade and store boughts. I have already purchased a few, but it would bankrupt me to buy them all.

At this point, I am not going to try and be prototypical for any one railroad, but use their rules as a base for Model Railroading fun. I feel that simplicity is the key to this and I am trying to stay flexible and hopefully simple in operations. You well know with your research just how complicated it can get. Even the 1954 SRR Engineer's rule book that I have, includes many changes added to the signal definitions and protocols to follow.

I would doubt that very many MR's have a clue to the hundreds of different rules used by railroads, but there are three things that common sense will tell everyone: Green-go, yellow-caution, red-stop. Now the trick is to keep the "combination signal colors" simple for the sidings.

[grande man]

there are three things that common sense will tell everyone: Green-go, yellow-caution, red-stop. Now the trick is to keep the "combination signal colors" simple for the sidings.


I agree. The only thing I might add would be a flashing yellow approach aspect. That looks REALLY cool! Other than that, the KISS principle would probably be my choice too.

[HaggisKennedy]

OK, I asked on the RyOps list about these types of masts, with heads facing in both directions. I was told that they're getting more common these days.

Andy Sperandeo, Executive Editor of Model Railroader, says that they would be uncommon before 1985, but are now quite common these days. He says there will be an article on signalling coming out soon in a special edition of MR, How to Build Realistic Layouts.

Somebody also said that back in the '60s, you had to get ICC permission to put signal lights to the left side of travel.

Kennedy

[RexHea]

Yeah, I saw a notice about the special edition. The only problem with these is they never say enough about any one thing. I sure wish someone had a complete book of Model Railroad Signals only. There are plenty available on prototypes, but there are so many variances that you have to adapt for MR. Do you know of any MR book like this? Sure be a good idea for an MR writer to make a few $bucks$.

The doubled up masts may be good for me in the back areas of my layout where the most important function would be for operations and not correctness. I don't think anyone visiting would notice the difference and considering the size of my system, I have to try an economize where I can.

Thanks for the research and info.