Staging the Platte Canyon Subdivision [Archive]

grande man

10-11-2005, 02:06 AM

We've been waiting on this day to come for a while. Today orders were placed for track, turnouts, roadbed, stationary decoders, and magnetic reed switches.

What we're planning is for three small yards, each with four tracks. Obviously, that's a total of 12 staged trains per operating session. The yards will represent points North, South and West of Sedalia, Colo. Turnout control/routing will be via Lenz 150 six channel stationary decoders. Track/turnouts will be Atlas code 83.

Train detection was the hard part of the decision making process. There are several choices commercially available. All have benefits and drawbacks. I decided on the Miniatronics magnetic reed switches for two reasons, they're reasonably priced and with a switch at each end of a staging track and two LED colors, we'll be able to tell if the track is occupied and which direction the train is headed if it is occupied. As a train enters an empty track, the first LED (green) should flash as each loco passes by. Then, when the second (red) LED lights, the train is stopped by the operator. If a green LED is lit, the track is occupied by a departing train. If the red LED is lit, the track is occupied by an arriving train.

Is there anything being overlooked? I'm a little uneasy about the reed switches. Has anyone got any experience with them?

SpaceMouse

10-11-2005, 03:00 AM

Bout frickin time.

Congrats. Welcome to the team sport of trains.

grande man

10-11-2005, 03:04 PM

Bout frickin time.

Congrats. Welcome to the team sport of trains.

Hey now. I've been "busy". You know, spending $$$ on DCC, trains, etc... :D I don't even want to know the total...

CSX_road_slug

10-11-2005, 03:24 PM

You know, spending $$$ on DCC, trains, etc... :D I don't even want to know the total...

BT/DT! In my situation, ignorance isn't merely "blissful" - it is necessary to maintain my sanity! (Gotta love that overdraft protection...) :D

SpaceMouse

10-11-2005, 10:35 PM

There is an modeling trains over competing in Cowboy Action shooting. In Cowboy Action shooting my wife doesn't know a Winchester 97 from a Sharps rifle, but she can count the empty spots in the gun cabinet.

In model railroading, There are tons of boxes on the shelves, some full some empty and too many to count especially if you move them around. :D

ARTHILL

10-11-2005, 10:54 PM

All Aboard - Good for you. Now let the fun begin.

ArtHill

CBCNSfan

10-11-2005, 11:56 PM

Has anyone got any experience with them?
Well not in Model rail, but in industry yes. They were used to limit the travel of the X-Y axis of a flatbed chart recorder. The only failures I seen were from physical abuse breakage (through carelessness). These Recorders were used 24 hrs a day except Sunday which was 16 Hrs. ( also stick to the operating parameters specs) they are not high current devices.

http://bestsmileys.com/textinbubble1/13.gif Willis

grande man

10-12-2005, 12:28 AM

Well not in Model rail, but in industry yes. They were used to limit the travel of the X-Y axis of a flatbed chart recorder. The only failures I seen were from physical abuse breakage (through carelessness). These Recorders were used 24 hrs a day except Sunday which was 16 Hrs. ( also stick to the operating parameters specs) they are not high current devices.

http://bestsmileys.com/textinbubble1/13.gif Willis

Thanks for the info, Willis. They'll only be powering small LEDs so hopefully the mag reed switches will work well.

grande man

10-18-2005, 06:30 PM

SpaceMouse

10-18-2005, 08:19 PM

Well, all the parts have arrived. Unfortunately, I'm pretty much booked at work this week, so we won't make much progress on the staging until the weekend. :( I also need to remember to check on what's in the lumber stack...

I'm at the stage where I'm about to add on staging. I was about to challenge you to a race, then I remember that I've got this stack of to do's and I'm not sure where the staging fits in.

What the heck, I double dog dare you to get your staging in and working before I get mine in.

grande man

10-19-2005, 02:39 AM

Naw, I'm to slow to race. ;)

SpaceMouse

10-19-2005, 03:27 AM

You know what my son would say?

"Bok. Bok. Bok."

dgwinup

10-19-2005, 05:58 AM

grande man

10-19-2005, 09:04 PM

I know you actuate these reed switches with magnets, but where are your magnets going to be located? They need to come fairly close to the reed switch to trip it and they need to stay over the reed switch to keep it activated. Just wondering how you were going to do this. I tried it years ago with N scale and didn't have much luck. Not enough room under the engines and couldn't figure out the best mounting under the rolling stock (which would have had to be 'head end' cars).

I'd like to know what works for you. Reed switches are a lot cheaper that light detection circuits!

Darrell, reedily quiet...for now

It looks like the magnets will have to be located under loco fuel tanks and painted. The reed switches will probably be at rail height. These are some SERIOUS magnets. I'm not sure how close to the switches they'll have to be. I'll do some reading on that soon.

Staged outbound trains will be parked over a reed switch for a constant green LED. Inbound train indication will be a flash of the green LED for each loco to let the engineer he's entered a staging spur and needs to slow down and watch for a red stop LED.

Each staging yard will be represented on a facia board yard map. I'm thinking pinstriped tracks with LED's at the beginning and end of each.

That's the theory, we'll see how it works... ;)

SpaceMouse

10-19-2005, 09:13 PM

I'm interested in how this works for you. My best guess was going to be one of those curved mirrors you stick on passenger side pick-up truck mirrors.

grande man

10-19-2005, 09:19 PM

I'm interested in how this works for you. My best guess was going to be one of those curved mirrors you stick on passenger side pick-up truck mirrors.

It'll be a little while before we find out how it works. If it performs satisfactorily, I'll have saved a bundle over opto or current draw type detection systems. I'm booked at work all week, so it'll be the weekend before we can even play with the new toys. :(

grande man

10-27-2005, 04:10 AM

Here's a quick update on the "project". I wish there had been more time to work on it last week.

Here's the indication panel. Since I'm not nearly the perfectionist I used to be, it was put together free hand. It's not perfect, but should do the job nicely. The LED's obviously still need to be put in as do the terminal strips and resistor board on the back side. The white area at the right labeled Track/Loco is made of dry erase board so the cab number of each lead loco can be listed after trains are staged.
http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL615/3680850/7880080/116487906.jpg

Here's a shot of a detection magnet installed on a P2K Geep. These are some SERIOUS magnets!
http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL615/3680850/7880080/116490098.jpg

Reed switches, LEDs, resistors...
http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL615/3680850/7880080/116490099.jpg

Here's a simple wiring print (please forgive my "paint" inadequacies). Each LED will draw power from Rail A, go thru a resistor installed on a PC board behind the indication panel, power the LED and return to a common Rail B connection that will be wired back to the DCS 100 command station. Since each track will have two LEDs, there will be two 4 conductor phone cables run to each 4 track yard. If neccessary, a second reed switch could easily be added in parallel with the first red "stop" LED to provide a longer indication so the engineer can stop and still have a lit LED for the spur. A holding relay would do the same if the reed switch could handle the load. They're rated at 100 ma.
http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL615/3680850/7880080/116490101.jpg

Ya'll have anything to add or see anything I'm missing???

grande man

10-29-2005, 02:09 PM

Here's an quick update on the train detection project. Due to some concerns over the original wiring schematic, we're going to use a separate power supply. It'll be a 12v unit rated for 1 amp (since that's what I found in my "junk" box :D) . The wiring will be a common power lead bussed thru board mounted resistors to the LEDs. The reed switches will complete the ground side of the circuit for each staging track. Here's a pic of tonight's progress. The terminal strips on the sides will be connections from the 4 conductor phone wires (6 total) going out to the reed switches (each yard will have a separate ground line from the power supply). The black wire in the center of the pic (verticle) is the Positive lead that will be connected directly to the power supply. The other is a buss wire between the resistors banks. The resistors are soldered on the power side to buss them together. The LEDs are installed, minus one. In a momentary lapse, I applied full voltage to it. :eek: Those babies will pop like a firecracker when you do that... :rolleyes: Oh well, Miniatronics will be glad to sell us a new pack of 12. :)

http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL615/3680850/7880080/116662348.jpg

RexHea

10-29-2005, 06:25 PM

dgwinup

10-30-2005, 03:20 AM

RexHea

10-30-2005, 05:13 PM

Darrell, I have track that runs through a wall to an adjoining shop. I use an X10.com security video camera that I had extra to watch my trains on that side of the wall without having to run out there every time. Its more of a novelty thing right now, but it will be used a lot more later on when I stage trains out there. These cameras are not all that expensive:check'um out at X10.com web site.:)

grande man

10-30-2005, 07:39 PM

Eric, you are doing some fine work with this detection system. I am following your progress with heighten interest. Very good decision to use a seperate power supply. Question: If you had chosen to use a holding relay, were you going to break the hold manually after your train pulled out or were you planning on additional auto controls? FYI: Radio Shack has what looks to be a good micro SPDT relay for this #275-241 @ $4.29. Its coil is 12VDC, 37.5mA.

I had planned to use a manual switch to break power to any holding relays. I decided that they aren't required though. As a departing train leaves a staging track, the green LED needs to extinguish. Arriving trains will just be backed up slightly until a steady red LED indication is present if they can't be stopped over the reed switch.

As a side note, LGM was playing with one of the reed switches wired to an ohm meter the other night. He was getting continuity thru the switch with the magnets up to 1/2 inch from the switch! That's encouraging. :) They'll probably be in the 1/8 inch range in actual use.

grande man

10-30-2005, 07:48 PM

Now that you have put all this work into it, I had a thought. Had you considered one of those tiny wireless video cameras? Mounted so you can see the staging tracks, you could watch on a monitor to see where the trains are at.

Nice of me to think of it now, eh? Sorry.

Looks like you aredoing some neat work. I'm anxious to see how it all works out for you.

Darrell, slow, but quiet...for now

CCTV is great, but I'd need to do three separate yards. Two of them will be stacked rather closely. I'm not to sure TV would be the best option in our case. Its great for many RR's though.

B_Kosanda

10-31-2005, 03:16 AM

It would be interesting to see what distortion applying an LED and resistor across the track does to the DCC signal. Once before I tried to use the DCC signal as a power source for a signal at a remote location on my layout. It ends up that the voltage regulator that I tied to the DCC bus actually distorted the DCC signal to the point where I could not reliably program my locos. Any way I just thought I'd bring that up as a note in case you have any problems.

Bill

grande man

10-31-2005, 02:09 PM

Thanks for the info Bill. We'll go with a separate power supply because of such concerns.

grande man

11-01-2005, 02:06 AM

Hi all. Here's an update on tonight's progress.

Loaded West Yard. From the water heater until they appear on the layout, trains only travel approx 6 feet.
http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL615/3680850/7880080/117122353.jpg

Installed reed switches. These are for the west yard's red LED's, but the green LED switches were installed tonight as well.
http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL615/3680850/7880080/117122347.jpg

Continuity!!! The test loco tripped all eight switches with no problems. It's hard to see from the pic, but the meter reads one ohm.
http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL615/3680850/7880080/117122357.jpg

The west yard detection is coming along nicely. I need to run the ground side wire to the yard and mount the indication panel. One of the panel's red LED's still has to be installed. Hopefully we'll test the system soon!

jbaakko

11-01-2005, 02:57 AM

Way more work then I'd have ever thought of for a staging yard! but then again, maybe I better, handling 100+ units on 30-40 various trains will be a struggle!

grande man

11-02-2005, 02:20 AM

Way more work then I'd have ever thought of for a staging yard!

It has been labor intensive!!! The good news is, South staging is now in, it and the West yard have working train detection!!! :cool: The indication panel is installed. So far, the system is working better than I'd hoped. :D I've got a few loose ends to square away and then it's on to the North yard. We are really looking forward to having a fully staged RR!

RexHea

11-02-2005, 05:19 AM

Congrats on your achievement and looking fine. Soon.....an Empire!
:DGo man go!:D

grande man

11-02-2005, 12:28 PM

Congrats on your achievement and looking fine. Soon.....an Empire!
:DGo man go!:D

Thanks Rex. We still have to get the stationary decoders in and turnouts wired too. We have a ways to go, but can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

grande man

11-04-2005, 02:56 AM

Hi all. This will probably be the final update on this subject unless I can provide something useful to someone else working on a train detection system. I'm amazed at how well the system is working so far. Most of our locos would trip the reed switches with their motor magnets alone! We went ahead and installed the Miniatronics magnets anyway, just for added reliability.

This pic gives an idea of what the indications look like during an actual ops session. The arriving/departing staged trains are clearly indicated.
http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL615/3680850/7880080/117766352.jpg

Here's a little joke LGM and I have going. No one ever claimed I'm anything but cheap. :D Actually, this saved me a trip to my dealer for a throttle port that will probably be little used.
http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL615/3680850/7880080/117541484.jpg

North/South Yards
http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL615/3680850/7880080/117766358.jpg

Thanks to all who hung in there and stayed with this thread. The bottom line is, a reed switch system is an effective, low cost alternative to commercial train detection. I think we'll enjoy it more as well, due to the fact that it's homegrown. :)

RexHea

11-04-2005, 04:44 AM

Thanks Eric for all your informative posts. It certainly gives me some planning ideas for my detection system. Great job on the status/indicator board.

NZRMac

11-05-2005, 09:29 AM

Looks great Eric, I used reed switches successfully for switching relays which switched track polarity ( try saying that fast ) before I got DCC auto reversers. They worked flawlessly. Mine were from fridge doors, they use them to tell the electronics if the door is open or not, they worked about an inch and a half from the magnet!!
So I hid them under the track.

Just thought you mite like to know.

Ken.

CSX_road_slug

11-05-2005, 02:06 PM

Excellent thread Eric, wish I could have contributed but I am still way behind the curve on this electronic stuff. :o Maybe in a year or two I'll have an opportunity to put your good ideas to use!

grande man

05-27-2006, 11:35 PM

Hi all. I thought I'd post a video of a train going into staging. This particular train has two locos in the consist, so you'll notice the green LEDs flash as the train enters it's staging track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW32sK0X5_8

Steve B

05-27-2006, 11:41 PM

I'll have to give that a try when i'm up and running again, but i recon i'm with Ken L on the learning curve when it come's to electronic stuff

NZRMac

05-27-2006, 11:46 PM

Eric, looks great love that panel. do you have a magnet on the caboose too? the third flash?

Ken.

grande man

05-28-2006, 01:15 AM

Eric, looks great love that panel. do you have a magnet on the caboose too? the third flash?

Ken.

Hi Ken. What you're seeing is sometimes the LED flashes twice as the magnet passes over the reed switch. In fact, that's the norm, 4 flashes for a two engine consist. The reason the second unit only flashed once was because I bumped the throttle up considerably after the first loco passed the switch to expedite things a bit. ;)

We debated equipping each caboose with a magnet, but that could complicate the indications. It would be possible to have both LEDs lit and not know if the train was arriving or departing.