What DCC System are people running

[grumpybob]

Since there seems to be a number of questions by people who are interested in getting into DCC and the fact that a number of systems are available, I thought that may be a description of what you have and likes and dislikes may be appropriate here.

Currently i am running the NCE System. I have had it for about a year after going through a number of months of see and trying what other people have. I Love the system because of it's user friendly atmosphere where the large controller that comes with the initial system displays a number of well identified buttons to do programming, Consisting, Accesory control, as well as cab selection. the speed control consists of both a thumb wheel for increasing and decreasing speed as well as buttons to do the same. Surprisingly, it didn't take much time to master. i have found that many of the engine CV changes can be easily done on the fly so i only use the programming track to set up a new engine.

The smaller cab that is available with this system is really great for the casual user. Usually within minutes i can have someone running trains and doing most of the things a regular operator needs to be able to control with relatively few keys.

I am also using many of the accessory decoders to run my switches and have set up macro's to route engines thru a number of switches on there way to a different line with just a quick command.

I have found the manuals to be fairly straight foward, but you do need to read them carefully. There is a lot to learn.


I am sure i am leaving something out, but wanted to see if may be others would join in and talk about their systems as well. hopefully, along with some hands on at a LHS or show, this might help people make a decision on what they might buy.

[HaggisKennedy]

I also have the NCE system. Though I bought mine in Dec 00. At that time, Digitrax hadn't come out with the DT400 throttle yet, and the DT300 require combo keystrokes to activate various functions. I felt that was the "Ctrl-alt-del" approach. Even though the NCE dogbone was like a big TV remote, it had a button for each specific action. Like, headlights, horn, etc. And, you didn't have to program in Hexidecimal (which Digitrax still requires). That was what sold me.

Since then, Digitrax came out with the DT400, which meant my personal distaste for the combo keystrokes was gone. I feel that they're comparable with NCE. A lot of it is personal preference; I did run Digitrax at a train show, I knew I could use it, but I felt the learning curve wasn't to my liking.

I don't want to get into, or imply I'm bashing anything, but it's important not only for the user to be comfortable with the system, but also approach it as the "owner" of the system. I knew I could use the Digitrax as an operator, but the key was what happens when I'm the owner? Was it easy to get up and running? How do I do things to maximize my use of all the features? If I had to keep yanking out the manual to do things because they aren't intuitive, that's a turn-off for me personally.

I skimmed the NCE manual briefly before I hooked it up and got it running. I don't think I've really read the manual straight through; though I've referenced it. There was a period of time where I didn't run trains at all, and when I started up again, it was simple to pick up.

BTW, there are Yahoo groups for pretty much all the DCC systems out there. I'm on both the Digitrax and NCE groups; the Digitrax group has way more users, but also way more messages. That was also a factor in the buy decision.

Kennedy

[hminky]

I have had Digitrax since 99, yes, the DT300 :mad: was not a thing of beauty. I have had very good success with the Digitrax, especially with the new DT400. I have always had command control. I had the MRC dual cab with the high frequency signal for the second loco in the early 1980's. I tried Onboard because of it's sound capabilities in the mid '80's. I love DCC. It is great. If you don't have DCC get it. Make sure the system you buy has the full range of functions on the throttle because you will eventually want sound. That is my only advise.
Hope that helps
Harold

[JeffShultz]

I don't have DCC, but a local layout whose owner graciously runs operating sessions does, and he uses EasyDCC. I didn't get into it much, but he seemed very happy with it. Radio throttles all over the place.

[CBCNSfan]

Jeff who makes the EasyDCC they arn't in this comparison.

http://ttx-dcc.com/productcompare/dcccomparison.htm

I'm just trying to get all the info I can
Cheers Willis

[JeffShultz]

An outfit named CVP makes EasyDCC:
http://www.cvpusa.com/

Here is a comparison to Digitrax:
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7145

[CBCNSfan]

Hi Jeff, well I read the CVP pages first, good site I got a lot of info there and was just about sold on Easydcc till I read the humerous post on the comparison page. I've read a lot of posts about the Zephyr and it seems they must be close to tops in customer service but I'll be doing a lot more reading yet, before deciding.
Thanks for the links they were a good help.
Cheers Willis

[elythomaslumber]

Currently I'm using the Uhlenbrock "Daisy" system which is not available in the US but an interesting idea. It's designed for beginners with DCC and handles also analog and the Maerklin Motorola digital format.
A much bigger system is the Uhlenbrock "Intellibox" handling DCC and MMII format. At the same time 2 operators can operate independently.

Since I'm operating a lot of DCC locos and in future some from BLI I want to change to an other bigger system like the LENZ 100 or NCE.

Hartmut

[grumpybob]

Interesting!! Nice to see some of the products we don't get here.

thanks

[CBCNSfan]

Hi Hartmut, I'm somewhat curious, in the top photo it looks like a hand held unit plugged into something, and in the bottom photo a device that seems to have lots of things to play with. Now does that hand held unit control more than 1 loco? If so how? If the handheld unit controls more than 1 loco, what's the box with the knobs and buttons for? http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage22/14.gif
I'm having a bit of trouble putting all this together.

[JeffShultz]

I'd guess that the box with all the knobs and buttons is a two throttle Command Station - perfect for use at the yard, as well as for programming the CV's into the locomotives.
Sort of like the same thing in this diagram from CVP for their EasyDCC system:
http://cvpusa.com/images/easydcc_basic_hookup.jpg

[CBCNSfan]

AH! that's a great diagram Jeff, all perfectly clear except for one nagging little thing.
OK now supposin I have 3 loco's programed with 3 different addresses, and I have 3 plug in throttles. What determines what throttle is going to control what loco? Do the throttles have to be programmed also? I have a nagging suspicion I'm going to appear stupid with that question. :D

Cheers Willis

[JeffShultz]

Your throttles have a switch that allows you to set what locomotive address you are controlling.

[CBCNSfan]

http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/doh.gif D'oh! I believe it was starting to dawn on me when I kept looking at all the buttons on the plug in throttles, guess I'm still in DC mode.

Thanks Jeff, Cheers Willis

[elythomaslumber]

Both systems are not mapped in the same scale. The box is much bigger than the hand held! Both systems are completely indedependently from each other.

Main part of the hand held system is the little box (central unit). The hand helt can handle up to 16 locos at the same time by selecting the loco adress. To change from an digital system to analog operation you've to plug in the hand helt into the other connector of the small booster box.

The big system (Intellibox) can handle up to 9999 locos and has a lot of more features than the hand helt system. Both system can also handle accessory decoders to control swichtes,...
Also the Intellibox has a PC interface. Please find here a short description:
http://www.uhlenbrock.com/3/4/0/2/0/ICD67DA8-002.apd/IB-PRO-E.PDF

When upgrading from the hand helt to the Intellibox you can still use the the small box as a booster and the hand helt as an additional control unit since the system family uses the same bus (Loconet).

The Intellibox is very popular in Germany due to it's compatibility to the DCC and Maerklin's MMII system, the PC Interface and a lot of automatic operation functions. Price is about $390,- . Price for the hand helt is about $170,-

Hartmut

[CBCNSfan]

Thank's for the link Hartmut, that helped in that it explains that by programming, multiple locos can be controled by one throttle. Now :confused: this should about do it. My layout is composed of a LOOP to LOOP mainline. (note: it's not really that simple, there are 6 loops 3 at each end, two seperate throttles are used for control and isolation)
If DCC power is applied to the rails continueusly, and a loco enters a loop, the DCC polarity on the mainline would have to be reversed the same as I'm now doing with DC, when the turnout is thrown and the loco continues around the loop and out again ( Right or Wrong ).

Cheers Willis

[grumpybob]

Hi Willis,

In DCC there is a unit called a Reverser. This Automatically does what a double pole Double throw Center off switch with the wiring crossed ovr does manually. Any Engine entering a reversing block will have in effect its polarity checked and the unit will automatically correct the flow thru the decoder so that there is no short and the train moves on without hesitation. I use them for both the reversing blocks and the turntable. works like a charm and you don't have to remember to throw the switch. :D

I know several companies that make them, and have used a couple of different kinds so i know they work extremely well.

[B_Kosanda]

I use the Digitrax system. I recently added a DT400R radio controlled throttle and the UR 91 radio receiver. I need to ask someone else on this forum how they turn off the system. That is, what state do you leave the throttle in when it is not used? I turn off my booster and Command Station, but the throttle is still essentially powered up and the display is on. I do not know what to do with this. The battery in the throttle is not being run down since it is connected to the Loconet when not used.

Bill

[CBCNSfan]

Hmm guess I forgot to click submit Age I guess.

OK, Is it safe to assume that an insulating rail joiner is required in the loop, to prevent the inside point rail from shorting the inside rail to the outside rail when the turnout is thrown? Also in DC my mainline power feed is through the loops this is to keep the loco in forward when on the main line, again I assume this will not be necessary in DCC. Perhaps I should draw a rough sketch of what I have then you'll have a better idea of what I'm going on about.
Cheers Willis

[grumpybob]

Your assumption on insulated rail joiners is correct on most switches.

[CBCNSfan]

Hi Bob if my assumption is correct, ( Atlas customline T.O.) then DCC would be the way to go for my layout, it would certainly reduce the throttle requirement to the command station and one hand held, or maybe even one of them Zephyrs would fill the bill, then I'd be able to forget about power routing.
In DCC there is a unit called a Reverser
It is my intention in the future when I have enough 630's built, to run double headers ( long hood coupled to long hood ). If the encoders in each were programed to the same address, would this work, or would seperate addresses be required because one loco is actually running in reverse? :confused:

[grumpybob]

Good thought. As far as engines go. Usually the only time I assign the same engine number to more than one unit is with a slug or a B unit as they are usually not being taken apart. This is where consisting comes into play. Each engine is assigned it's own address, usually based upon the engine number. Then, you set up a consist (whereby the two, or more engines in question are assigned a separate number to operate the multiple lash ups as a single unit. That way as each engine is assign, you also set up the directional control. Makes it then easy if you ever have to separate the units, then all you have to do is drop the consists #. Sounds a little heavy right now, but once you get into it, it is really easy. Assigning two engines the same number would me they both have to run in the same direction, or you would have to reverse the wiring in one of the engines and that is a pain.

Bob

[elythomaslumber]

Hi Bob

thats right, but on some decoders you can set a bit in a CV (29? not shure at the moment). This bit reverses the driving direction permanently without reversing the wiring. But I never would use 2 same adresses. Most systems can run a lot of different adresses (9999).

Hartmut

[grumpybob]

Hi Hartmut,

Usually, setting CV29 to 35 will reverse the direction of an engine(with an address over 127) and 3 with an Address under 127. But it is not my favorite method as now you have to keep track of something else.

Our group usually makes up cards which indicate at the top the Consist #, and then below the engine numbers of all the equipment in that consist. it's easy to make up and we attach it to the front of the waybills so you don't forget to easily.

but, your right cross wiring is not really a good thing either.

Bob A

[CBCNSfan]

OH! OH! back to more browsing and reading :D

Cheers Willis

[grumpybob]

Hi Willis,

It is a lot of info to process at one time. I Don't remember when you said you were going to the show, but once you do and you get a chance to see this in action, talk to some of the folks there and you select the one you want, many of your questions will become a lot easier to answer.

Bob A.

[elythomaslumber]

Don't be afraid of all these comments, Willis. I started with DCC 2 years ago without knowing a lot of that stuff. Best way is practice or better say learning by doing. This way is much better than trying to become an expert by reading a book.

Have fun!

Hartmut

[HaggisKennedy]

It is my intention in the future when I have enough 630's built, to run double headers ( long hood coupled to long hood ). If the encoders in each were programed to the same address, would this work, or would seperate addresses be required because one loco is actually running in reverse? :confused:

Actually, you'd want to do a consist, which should ask you which way each loco will be running. The command station then stores that data so when the whole shebang is running, all the locos will be running in the same direction. So, there's not much worry about which way they're facing when you're hooking them all up.

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

Hi All, and thank's for the information. Bob the show will be held Oct.16 and I willl be attending and get the local scoop on what they are using, with some demo's I hope. I've downloaded the manual for the Digitrax Zephyr and it certainly has some interesting reading, it seems pretty simple to use if you follow instructions. Whatever unit I purchase will only have to handle 20 locos, ( :D maybe!), and I'm guessing they will all do that with extra power boosters, and if it can do some more things to reduce the hands on effects, so much the better. With at least 20 loco addresses I can forget about reversing anything, 12 to 14 will be in consists of two, with the rest taking up space and looking pretty untill needed.
I've decided DCC will be the way for me, it will eliminate a lot of switches used for track isolation, all I have to do now, is decide what make I will buy ( decisions! decisions!). What they use locally will have little if any bearing on what I purchase since it will be mail order anyway.

Cheers Willis

[HaggisKennedy]

Whatever unit I purchase will only have to handle 20 locos, ( :D maybe!), and I'm guessing they will all do that with extra power boosters, and if it can do some more things to reduce the hands on effects, so much the better. With at least 20 loco addresses I can forget about reversing anything, 12 to 14 will be in consists of two, with the rest taking up space and looking pretty untill needed.


Well, my NCE only has 6 slots to recall, but each slot can be a consist with any number of locos. What I mean is that I can cycle through only 6 "ID Numbers". The 7th you'll need to enter the loco number.

You can have as many locos on the pike as you want, but if some are sound and some have their lights on, all that draws current. I remember one guy wondering why his system suffered seemingly random shutdowns; somebody figured out he had 40+ locos idling away on the layout and he was right near the 5am limit. If one of the running trains drew a bit more than normal for some operational reason, the booster shut down for an overload!

:D

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

Well just came from reading the info on the NCE site, very interesting also and certainly another possibility. Now to see if I have it right :rolleyes:
You can have 63 cabs controling 250 trains at the same time :eek:
and 127 of these trains can be consists with an unlimited number of locos ( provided there is enough boosters) and 63 people to run them :)

Now if that is correct, Then the basic NCE system should have no problem with 6 mainline trains, a maximum of ( 2 running and 4 in staging) and one spur line train.
my NCE only has 6 slots to recall
Now I take it that I could leave the spur line train at one sort of permenant address or key it in as a seventh train as one possibility another would be to change ( swap ) address of two trains in the staging loops. ( if keyed in as the seventh train, does it have to be keyed in each time you recall it? )
Lastly and the least complicated would be to add another cab, would this extra cab give 6 more slots to cycle through?

Cheers Willis

[grumpybob]

Good questions.

First, the recall feature in NCE is there to allow you, through the memory in the system, to switch between either engines or consists up to a max of 6 at a time. this is a quick way not to have to constantly enter the same engine numbers over and over again. That does not mean you can't operate more than that, however, i haven't seen too many people try to operate too many at a time, because we all tend to forget what we are doing. :eek: Usually two or three max.

That will take practice because if you select a different engine/consist from the one you are running, you have to remember that the first system will continue to run if you don't stop it first before making a new selection.

To add a seventh unit into memory, obviously eliminates one of the other six in memory. It works on a first in first out basis. But it doesn't mean you can't use it later.

On all the NCE throttles there is a select loco button. You hit that, enter the engine or consist number and hit enter. it is as simple as that. the number of engines running or sitting on a layout is only restricted by the power consumption your system will allow. I operate in one group where than can be as many as 30 to 40 engines on the layout at one time. Granted they is an addition booster and there is also 4 power districts. Most engines while they are sitting in a staging yard with outsound turned on and the lights off, draw very little if anything.

Address assignment is permanent to all engines with decoders. It is the selection of such that allows you to operate which ever one you want. T

hope this helps.

Bob A.

[HaggisKennedy]

Just a minor nit; it's not quite "First In, First Out"; if you want to key in the 7th loco, it takes the spot of the loco that's currently being displayed on the readout. So, it could be any of the 6 already stored.

Also, the scrolling only goes one way. By that I mean you can't scroll 'backwards', as in say you have locos A, B, C, D, E, F. You are displaying F right now. If you want to now operate "E", then you have to scroll by A-D first; you can't go from F to E.

Each cab handles it's own locos, though sometimes multiple operators might try to acquire one that's already acquired by another Cab. That causes a problem; it won't blow anything, but may cause a runaway or a response problem. Best is to zero-out that slot if you intend on passing that address on.

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

Well Well comprehension so far is pretty good. OK next assumption, if I had programed 6 units, "A" to "F" in slots 1 to 6, (with only unit "C" moving) and I scrolled forward to "C" slot 3 ( and for some silly reason) programed unit "G" into that position to do whatever, I assume unit "C" would still be moving around the layout at the last setting it had. ( like memory ) and to regain control of "C" I would have to re-enter the code for it in another slot. :)

Thanks for being patient so far, I don't know what questions I'll have left for the train show, if any. but one sure thing they wouldn't be able to snow me now. :D

Cheers Willis

[grumpybob]

Yup :)

I don't believe i have ever tried that, but until such time as you recognize control over C it should continue to move.

[kentsoftware.com]

I tryed a Digitrax Zypher with the dt400 throttle, in the few days i had it it locked up completely requiring a complete power off to reset it... It went back and I now run a Lenz Set-90 with a LI100F computer interface and I'm very happy with it. I also program DCC software for Lenz XpressNet (http://www.zugdcc.com)

btw: i also use my Atlas Commander as an extra throttle :)

[CBCNSfan]

I don't believe i have ever tried that
LOL, and I don't think I ever will either, too risky, but the example helps me understand the systems. What I'm seeing now is that the Command Station controls all of the trains with the information fed to it from the handheld unit, or units. The Command Station information that's fed to the track, will only change for the unit the slot that the hand held is set too. For my planned operation all that is required will be a basic set. However if the basic set is not expandable I'll go the next step up. Due to posts on some other forums I'm seriously looking at NCE. However I still have to keep an open mind as some of them boys might not be reading their Mfg.'s instructions :D

Cheers Willis

[HaggisKennedy]

The answer is Yes, it will keep moving. I have not done exactly what you said, but sometimes I will press the "Select Loco" button accidentally while holding the Cab. So, I'm sitting there trying to change speeds, and the loco keeps moving blissfully along!

I do this often enough so that if it doesn't change speeds within a certain period of time (because I have Accel/Decel values greater than Zero programmed in the decoder), I'll look down at the readout. Invariably, I've hit the Select Loco button and I have to hit "Esc" to regain control....

:D

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

(because I have Accel/Decel values greater than Zero programmed in the decoder),
:eek: And I thought I had it all, now I have to start again ;) Wow! and I thought all I'd have to do give it a shot of throttle and it would be all done. I knew the decoder had to be programed for recognition, but I didn't know that values for accel. and decel. had to be programed also. So it was back to reading. I read something about speed steps 18 to 128 and something about a 14 wouldn't work such a system, but other than that they didn't elaborate on it. Is that what you mean by programming Accel/Decel values. I can give myself a pat on the back for figuring out CV means "Control Values", it does, don't it? Looking at some decoder specs I see there are different numbers of functions, and I take it these extra functions are for lights ect. Anyway to cut to the chase a little info on decoders and programing them would be welcome.
Cheers Willis

[HaggisKennedy]

Accel/Decel us actually a delay value for how long it takes for the loco to respond. I think the value is in milliseconds. What that means is that if you increase the speed value by One, it takes that many milliseconds before the loco starts responding. This supposedly mirrors real life, when you move the throttle, you don't get instantaneous response.

On the flip side, if you're ripping along and you come upon an open drawbridge, Zero-ing the throttle setting doesn't mean the loco is going to stop on a dime!

There's a whole bunch of CVs available, but not every decoder has all of them useable. Normally, the more feature-packed ones are the most flexible. Though I personally only use a few of them. The NCE scrolls through the most popular ones; the new ROM chip will make this easier. The only other ones I use are CV5 = max speed value (255), CV6 = Midpoint, and CV65 (kick start; this overcomes the motor's "stick-tion", which keeps the motor from turning at speed step one). This value is a kick to get the motor turning.

:D

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

I personally only use a few of them
Thanks kennedy, that brings it back down to earth, seems to be common sense settings you're using, however (CV6 = Midpoint) midpoint of what? An open draw bridge no problem rails will be dead, now derail is another matter since a lot of the train could end up on a long trip to the floor.

Cheers Willis

[HaggisKennedy]

Midpoint of the speed curve. The speed setting values are 1-255, irregardless of the number of speed steps you are using. I personally use 28speed steps; the controller goes from 1-28. However, internally to the decoder, 28=255 for the speed value. Controller value 14 is half of that, which is 128.

What the Mid/Max does is to set up what I'll call a pseudo speed curve. This uses only two setting values. If you set the MID value to, say 75, that means you get to the middle speed value faster (say Controller value 9 or so, vs 14); it won't be a straight line curve. If you set it above 128, then your midpoint will be higher, say a controller value of 20, let's say. This means overall, it'll take more increases to get to half speed.

The Max is a bit different; at max value, full voltage gets to the motor. Cutting the value back means your top speed won't be as fast, since you don't get the full voltage to the motor. I used this on one of my Walthers Rotary Snowplows. The motor that rotates the cutter wheel is only rated at 5-6 volts max (there's a current limiter soldered in line to limit it). So, when I installed a decoder to control the speed of the wheel, I set the MAX at basically under half value. This limited the current going to the motor as well as cutting down the speed to more realistic levels.

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

Thank's Kennedy, OK if I have it right, the higher I set the midpoint, the more steps it will take to reach half speed, and from that point a lesser amount of steps to maximum speed. Like say if it was a yard switcher and the mid point was 20 it would take 20 speed steps to reach the loco's actual 1/2 speed and only 8 more steps from there to max speed. Now the way I'm seeing it, is this should give greater control of the lower speeds which would be great for a loco of that type. ( Right :) ) ( Wrong :( )

Cheers Willis

[grumpybob]

(Right) :)

[CBCNSfan]

Good so far eH! OK just one more, Why I would put a $40 decoder in a $15 loco I have no idea, but supposin I did.
1- Set the kick Start to realistic value ( I'm assuming this sort of a pulse )
2- Using the MAX speed values and the MIDPOINT values
I could get the piece of junk working pretty good, say very much better than with a good quality throttle.

Cheers Willis

[grumpybob]

I suppose you could spend that much for a decoder on an engine that probably cost you half as much :confused: Maybe it might run well.

Seriously, with the exception of one engine, which i had probably spent more in parts than the engine was probably worth, i have put out to pasture most of the older equipment. From the get go, especially if they are Athearn, the units are not DCC ready, which means an entire dismantling to isolate the motor unit. :eek:

Not really that hard, just time consuming.

[HaggisKennedy]

I have a handful of $30 decoders, but don't put them in the $15 locos. Though I have a $100 decoder in a $25 loco......

This one is an older Athearn Blue Box SD40T-2, dummy unit. It's got a Soundtraxx LC EMD decoder in it, plus 3 oval speakers inside. No motor, the entire interior is crammed with speakers. It could be a lead unit, but most likely it'll be a trailer MU'd with a powered unit; the idea being that all it's going to do for the consist is crank out sound.

BTW, most of the cheap-o locos have the cheapest decoders around (mainly TCS-1s, $15ea).

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

Hi guys, I guess what I was after is, will the variable settings of the DCC systems allow one to enhance the operating characteristics of a locomotive? All my operational loco drives are Blue Box Athearns,( no matter what they resemble now ) and I have just about 8 finished now. Rebuilding the fleet with upgrades is out of the question because I've countless hours invested building the locos I have. Isolating the motors will not be a problem since they are now mounted on plastic ( the rubber mounts are gone ) remove the chassis wire from its post and the motor is isolated from the chassis, so decoder installation shouldn't be too difficult now, will just have to find out which wire from the decoder goes to where :D

Cheers Willis

[grumpybob]

Willis,

I've only done one blue box and it seems to run fairly fine and since it is assigned to local switching assignments overall performance has not been an issue. I am sure that by tweaking the variables should provide you with as best performance you will need. The key will be to make sure that the engines that you plan to run in the consists run well together.


As far as installing DCC in Athearn bluebox units, Digitrax makes a DH series of a decoder that comes with the harness necessary to hook up the engine probably as easily as can be accomplished. I believe it is a DH163AT. :confused: Haven't bought one in a while.

Just please remember to coat the well in the frame where the motor sits with some kind of insulator. I have heard horror stories even in the Genesis series of dead shorts. :eek:

Bob.

[HaggisKennedy]

The main thing on the Blue Box motors is the power pickup on the bottom of the motor. Those two little prongs are the culprit. Some folks break them off, others swap it with the top pickup, either way works. And, some electrical tape on the bottom of the motor well helps.

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

Those two little prongs are the culprit
Yeah I just pounded them in, as they are no longer needed. The post I refered to, is a 2mm brass screw threaded into the frame the motor pickup is wired to that. These latest locos will also have the associated truck pickup with a wire soldered to the frame, much better than the stock friction connection between frame and truck. The motor itself is mounted with screws to plastic plates cemented into the indents where the rubber mounts went, but as you say a little tape wouldnt hurt so I'll do that to the 630's presently under construction. Thanks.

Click on the pic http://www.railimages.com/albums/willisbates/abt.thumb.jpg (http://www.railimages.com/albums/willisbates/abt.jpg) the bottom Motor pickup wiring and the hard wired trucks
Cheers Willis

[grumpybob]

Well, you won't need a dh163AT as the kit that come with it is designed to connect to the clips on the athearn frame. You have already either eliminated them or cut them down. That will save you a couple of Dollars. :D A Regular 7 wire decoder will suffice. Either NCE's D13SR or one of the other brands standard decoders.

[CBCNSfan]

7 Wire :confused: ok two to the motor, two to the pickup from the track. Now I'm going to make a guess, one common and two for front and rear lights. how close am I, or am I way off base?

Cheers Willis

[grumpybob]

good assessment. :D

Black and Red are track power.

Grey and orange are leads to the motor.

White is for the Front light, and yellow to the rear light

The Blue is the common for both.

Not home so I don't have one in front of me, but the instructions in most manuals are usually clear enoug to do the install.

there may be an eight wire. Green. that is used for Ditch lighting, stobe lighting or other lighting features outside of the regular front and rear head lights. Again the Blue is the common for that as well.

[CBCNSfan]

Thanks Bob, well Saturday I'm going to the MR show, don't have too much to ask them now, but who knows :)

BTW for anyone following this thread, this Athearn chassis is a SMOOOOTH runner. By removing the rubber mounts, solidly mounting the motor on plastic beds, the alignment of the shafts to the trucks are straight and horizontal, leaving little if any misalignment for the universals to compensate for. Now if the flywheels were balanced?? well I'm not going to do that. :D

Cheers Willis

[CBCNSfan]

Well the train show is over :) I asked lots of questions :confused: some were answered and some were not :rolleyes:
First let me thank the members who posted to this thread for their open and unbiased answers to my questions. To be fair I did come out of the show with some good information, especially from the club who showed and demonstrated their Lenz system and also with the telephone handset. The host club who were using Digitrax were also helpful and told me they were using all NCE decoders on their system. I was told to stay clear of some basic DCC units and the reasons for, how true these statements were, time will tell. All in all it seems the command unit prices are in the same ballpark. Each brand would run me about Cdn.$500 and with enough decoders to start I'd be out of the park. So my decision will be to purchase the NCE decoders an then the big unit to command it all at a later date. It's been quite a day SOoo!
Cheers Willis

[B_Kosanda]

Willis,
Just make sure whatever decoders you purchase have two things. Enough function outputs to drive the number of lights you want (e.g. ditch lights, etc) and that they have "ulrasonic" or "silent drive".

Bill

[CBCNSfan]

"ulrasonic" or "silent drive". :confused: OH! Boy! here we go again. :D I vaguely remember reading something about silent drive in the adds, what does it mean?

Cheers Willis ( Education continues ) :D

[B_Kosanda]

Willis,
Most of the new generation of decoders have an ultrasonic-type function. The older version of decoders produces a hum in the loco motors because it is powering the motor with a chopped signal. Sort of like running a DC motor on AC current. The new ultrasonic decoders raise the frequency of the chopping to a range that is outside of the frequency where the motor can respond. Thus, you hear no hum in the motor. This effect is especially noticable at low speeds, before the motor gets reved up to high rpm. I consider this to be such a big deal, that I swapped out a couple older generation decoders for new Digitrax versions with the ultrasonic function. An example would be the Digitrax DH163P.

Another neat function that the newer decoders have is a type of velocity feedback. This function causes the loco to run at the selected speed, whatever the load. This is extra useful for very low speed operation. If you select speed step 2 for example, it will operate at speed step 2, regardless of the number of cars in tow or the grade. Again, the DH163P has this function.

Bill

[mushroom2]

What are the current limitations on decoders? I've got some stuff with older Pittman motors that I really don't want to re-motor. For instance I have an old Hobbytown with a DC-90 motor in it. That thing pulls the wall paper off the wall but it also draws about an amp and a quarter. And I don't even want to think what it's stall current is.

[grumpybob]

That Amperage draw, especially at Stall is very important to the decoder you select. You will need to either meter that or possible look for a newer motor with less draw. I have seen some decoders rated around 2 amps. Also since the engine is all metal, grounding the decoder is going to be a big concern.

[mushroom2]

That's what I was afraid of. So in other words, those of us with older stuff may have a heck of a time trying to convert them to DCC.

[grumpybob]

unfortunately, the older equipment justs takes you out of the plug and play that is designed into the new engines. The Wiring discussion, about which wires go where, that i had earlier in this thread with Willis becomes more of a norm. so the install takes a little bit longer.

The real concern is to make sure none of the decoder touches an metal. which will mean some kind of insulated plate to mount the decoder on to prevent dead shorts or "flying clip disease" as we used to call it in the Dynatrol days.

[CBCNSfan]

Thanks for the explaination Bill, I'll definately not want old stock decoders , now with all my out of the Blue Box Athearns, and I forgot about the Trainline, all I have to do is either buy a mating recepticle, or cut the plug off a P&P decoder and hardwire it. With a new decoder are there references for the wiring on the plugs?

Cheers Willis

[grumpybob]

Willis,

Several suppliers sell the Harnesses separately. Instructions for wiring should be in the package, but shouldn't change from what i gave you earlier.

Bob A.

[HaggisKennedy]

Most decoder manufacturers sell their decoders with different harnesses; one is for the NMRA 8-pin, one has no plugs at all; these are the ones that are hardwired. Of course, some are made to fit a specific loco (like a Kato).

I had a handfull of no-plug ones: I sent a few to my pusher who put a NMRA 8-pin on them, so now I have an assortment of harnesses to fit whatever situation I run into.

And, this is important to me, because when I grab a loco to do an install, the last thing I want is to not have a part or item to complete the task. When that happens, usually I lose interest in completing it, and it adds to the locomotive dead line. As in, locos disassembled, parts lost, no decoder, lost track of what needs to be done, etc., etc. Waste of time and money.

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

Most of the new generation of decoders have an ultrasonic-type function. from post #59
Thanks Bill good info I'll keep in mind before I order anything. I plan to get decoders first so that when I purchase a command station I'll be ready to run all the locos on DCC, also the command stn. will have the latest software or whatever, the big drawback is I won't know if the decoders are servicable till then :( The layout is easily manageable with one walk around and one of the double Tech II's I have, but let's face it one handheld that will do it all is pretty hard to beat.

Cheers Willis

[CBCNSfan]

locos disassembled, parts lost, no decoder
Hi Kennedy, kind of curious, you have a good point there about the plug ins. Is there a supplier of mating recepticles that one could install in (his/her) locos?
Cheers Willis

[HaggisKennedy]

Some vendors sell the male/female 8pin plugs, but you'll need to do the soldering on the dinky little pins for all of the different wires. And, we're only talking about 8 of the 9 wires (I think the purple one doesn't get a pin, but can't be sure).

I usually have the males put on the harnesses, which allows me to use other decoders in locos that already have the female plug installed.

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

Thank's Kennedy, hmm pretty near lost this thread. Soldering is no problem, seems I've spent a lot of my life doing just that. When I order it will be decoders with plugs, hope they are the female end. Sounds like you have a good system setup.

Cheers Willis

[HaggisKennedy]

I'm lazy, I usually collect all the unused harnesses, cut them to various lengths and then put them all into an envelope and send them to the guy I buy most of my decoders from and have him do it. Eyesight is a limiting factor in my situation; I'm having some problems with soldering tiny stuff. He charges me a nominal fee, which is usually a lot less than the handful of decoders I'm buying at the same time....

:D

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

Eyesight is a limiting factor in my situation; I'm having some problems with soldering tiny stuff.
Hmm! come to think of it them plugs and pins could be mighty small and the irons I can see could be pretty big. Maybe you have another good idea there.
Cheers Willis

[Little Grande Man]

And, you didn't have to program in Hexidecimal (which Digitrax still requires). That was what sold me.

Kennedy

On our Super Chief, you can click the right throttle knob (DT300 & 400) while programing to change into normal decimal mode.

[scubaterry]

I started out in DCC using a SUPER Chief. One of the reasons I choose this system was its expandability and it came with a DT-400 throttle. As someone incorrectly stated earlier Digitraxx high end throttles CAN be prog using Dec or Hex. Nice for me so I don't have to do any converting in my head or on paper just hit the right throttle knob and it will toggle back and forth between the two. (as stated by LGM). ANother neat thing about the DT300/400 throttle is when you use four digit addressing all you have to do is set one CV and it will ask you if you want to set the other two and it does it all for you. Very simple so I use four digit addresses on all my loco. I am very biased because Digitraxx is all I know but I am very happy with it..
Terry and WILMA

[caellis]

I am using a Lenz with a 100 cab plus a Lenz 90 cab. About an even mix (10) of Digitrax and Lenz decoders. Have been very happy with the Lenz. This gives me both pushbutton and knob speed control cabs. I use their USB computer interface with DecoderPro for easy programming of the decoders. One of the reasons for going with Lenz is they use the RS485 network protocol. Having recently retired with 42 years in the computer field, I felt very comfortable with their choice of protocol. My scale is HO.

[regus2]

I am just starting out with model railroading again after a break of 25 years.I decided that DCC was the way to go.I am building my railroad in the United Kingdom.I am buying all my equipment when I am in the USA which is about 3 times a year.
I decided on Digitrax,I have bought much more than I will ever need so I will sell excess items on Ebay in the UK where it is very expensive and in short supply.
So far I have.1 Zephyr 2x DSC100 2xDB150 1xDT400 1xDT300 1xUT4R 2xDT100R 1xUR91 2xUP5 1xUP3 1xDS64 1xSE8C 1xPS515 1xPS315 2xPS12 4xSIGNAL DRIVERS 3x EDGE MOUNTINGS 2x TERMINAL STRIP KITS 3XSIGNAL MOUNTING KITS DECODER WIRE.
I am looking forward to getting back to the UK so I can start on my DCC adventure.

[gbbsoft]

Hey
I have Lenz Set-100 and LI-USB plus my own software: GbbKolejka.

[BNSF dude]

I use Digitrax sure it might not be easy to use but it has a lot of functions.

[regus2]

I am just starting out with model railroading again after a break of 25 years.I decided that DCC was the way to go.I am building my railroad in the United Kingdom.I am buying all my equipment when I am in the USA which is about 3 times a year.
I decided on Digitrax,I have bought much more than I will ever need so I will sell excess items on Ebay in the UK where it is very expensive and in short supply.
So far I have.1 Zephyr 2x DSC100 2xDB150 1xDT400 1xDT300 1xUT4R 2xDT100R 1xUR91 2xUP5 1xUP3 1xDS64 1xSE8C 1xPS515 1xPS315 2xPS12 4xSIGNAL DRIVERS 3x EDGE MOUNTINGS 2x TERMINAL STRIP KITS 3XSIGNAL MOUNTING KITS DECODER WIRE.
I am looking forward to getting back to the UK so I can start on my DCC adventure.
After much thought I decided to go with NCE and I have never looked back,NCE is so simple to use.I recomend it to anyone,

[RonP]

Both the club and me at home use Digitrax