C&nw

[chrismoore93]

Hi Everyone,
I have had my eyes on two auctions (on ebay.) They are two different locomotives from two different makers. Have a look.




http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19132&item=5971141657&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19130&item=5970610213&rd=1

They are both Chicago and Northwestern locomotives,the first one is a Dash 8-40C, and the second one is a SD40-2. The Dash 8's maker is Bachmann, and the SD40-2's maker is Athearn. Tell me what you think
Thanks,
Chris Moore

[CBCNSfan]

Hi Chris, well me, being somewhat on the cautious side, ( I almost got stung on a dummy loco) I would stay clear of the Bachmann, 1, Terms of Sale I don't like 2, the number 85016 doesnt check out for a powered loco (Bachmann has 85015 for powered) can't find 85016 on the Bachmann site but it is legible on the box.
The Athearn is a new Blue box kit loco, it is powered and from appearances a reputable dealer That's my pick of the two
Cheers Willis

[chrismoore93]

Willis,
Thank you for pointing that out, I had to read it again, and it said it was a "duplicate engine". I'm guessing that means it is a dummy.

Now about the Athearn blue box locomotive. Have you ever had one before and do they run well?
Thanks,
Chris Moore

[CBCNSfan]

Hi Chris, LOL Athearn Blue Box locos are the power for my main engines. They are a good dependable loco for the price. They can be noisy runners, they can have electrical problems, and no matter what, all their faults all can be easily fixed to become good running locos. The body shell details for the most part are molded on like the trainset locos, but again a little work can result in an attractive looking loco. For the price they're hard to beat
About the auction, $24.99 is most likely a bit below mail order prices and again you will have to pay shipping charges which he doesn't quote. Bear in mind that some sellers use shipping and handling to get the price they want, other than that shipping should be in the vicinity of about $7.50. My suggestion would be check your local hobby shop first. For the difference of a few $$ purchase at the hobby shop. You can also check some of the online dealers. Remember the eBay motto " Buyer Beware " In fact I'm watching one now, some newbies bidding against a shill bidder, I won't go over $26 US and its also new in the box. Just some things to think about :D
Cheers Willis

[chrismoore93]

Willis,
I was looking a the SD40-2 again on ebay. I noticed there were no handrails. Can you easily install these (if you wanted them on?)
Thanks,
Chris Moore

[CBCNSfan]

Can you easily install these (if you wanted them on?)
Well it's an easy answer Chris the Blue Box Kit comes with handrails and a bag containing stanchions, headlight lenses, horns ect to be attached by the purchaser thats why it's called a kit. As I've said about eBay be cautions, if the hand rails are not on the loco and there is no mention of them being included, then most likely there will be none. Getting the handrails and stanchions for these units from Athearn is getting difficult if you can get them at all. The stanchions are the important part as the hand rails can be bent from brass or steel wire. This takes a bit of skill and can be a lot of extra work, so unless you are buying it for parts or getting it for a song, I'd leave it there. ( Just my opinion and what I'd do)
If you look at the locos on my pages, the stanchions are Athearn and the handrails are bent from brass wire.
In the case of the SD40-2 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19130&item=5970610213&rd=1 you're looking at on eBay, the seller shows a picture of the parts bag with the loco, he also states it's new and complete in a sealed box so bidding on that should be ok. Also if you purchased one of these kits at a local hobby shop, that is the way you would receive it. Myself, I like the strong metal handrails and stanchions as oposed to the weak and flimsy plastic ones. Hope that helps and doesn't confuse, I do ramble on at times :D
Cheers Willis

[chrismoore93]

Willis,
"the Blue Box Kit comes with handrails and a bag containing stanchions, headlight lenses, horns ect"

Do the headlight lenses and horns have to be attached with glue? And then do the handrails have to be glued to the stanchions then to the locomotive?

Hope this doesn't confuse you :p
Thanks,
Chris Moore

[CBCNSfan]

Hi Chris, for the horn a touch of glue to the post wouldn't hurt but in most cases the parts are a good snug fit, just push in place. The way I assemble handrails is to thread the required number of stanchions on a piece of hand rail, then fit the stanchions in each of the holes that are provided for them on the side of the walkways , it's not difficult to do. When we had a club I've seen 45 year olds giving 10 year olds their Athearns to put together because the old guys thought it was difficult, ( lazy would be more like it :D)
Cheers Willis

[chrismoore93]

Willis,
I also have my eye on another SD40-2. It is a shortline in the Northernwestern U.S.
I'm not sure if you have heard of it, but the roadname is the Montana Rail Link. They use the BNSF line in Montana, Idaho, and Washington. I have seen some diesels with that roadname before traveling through one of the states.
Anyway here is the auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19130&item=5970611789&rd=1
I was thinking about modeling the Montana Rail Link also (along with the BNSF)
I'll let you know which one I choose,
Chris Moore

[CBCNSfan]

Yep I've heard of the Montana railink theres a few more shots of the ones in the Ottawa valley, don't know maybe they are related :D

http://trainweb.org/ovr/railink/rov/images/1750ONRhook.jpg http://trainweb.org/ovr/railink/rov/images/20021750.jpg http://trainweb.org/ovr/railink/rov/images/0606-01.jpg

I'm going to do a GP9 in the Blue and white scheme.
Cheers Willis

[chrismoore93]

Willis,
No, they are not related. This railroad is located in Montana, Idaho and Washington in the United States (the one I'm talking about.) Here are some pictures:
http://www.toltecimages.com/trains/2290.jpg http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/mrl402.jpg http://www.alaskarails.org/jtcombs/pnw/P0002203.JPG http://www.toltecimages.com/trains/later%20images/6610.jpg http://www.toltecimages.com/trains/later%20images/3253.jpg
Thanks,
Chris Moore

[RCH]

Chris, one thing you can look out for if you don't mind the plastic handrails (like Willis said, not as durable, but they look better in my opinion), are the retooled Athearn SD40-2s. They don't have mounting lugs on the sides of the body and instead are held on by screw mounted couplers, which is not only an improvement in appearance, it's also a more reliable and snug fit. The retooled SD40-2s come in several variations of body style and come with an improved drivetrain and motor, which is why you're likely to find older Athearn SD40-2s at a bargain.

Some of the variations include:

chicken wire radiator grilles
corrugated radiator grilles
standard nose length
"snoot" nose (extended nose to house radio equipment)
dynamic braking
extended range dynamic braking
post-1980 "Q" fans (more domed in appearance than earlier fans)

I wish I could show you photos of all of these variations, but I don't have that many models. However, I can show you at least some of them. More about that later.

Anyway, the point to be made here is that the Athearn model is an excellent buy and can be customized easily if you choose. But even better than that is the fact that Athearn has chosen the appropriate variations for you based on the particular prototype, if you're buying a factory painted model. Athearn also includes molded plastic handrails in addition to the standard pre-bent metal handrails so you may choose which you would like to install. Willis prefers the metal ones (probably because he actually operates his models!) while I prefer the look of the plastic ones (my models tend to be more of the "glass case" variety since I don't have a layout but do have two curious toddler girls!). Of course, these variations are available on the newest run models only. However, the plastic handrails may be purchased separately if you'd like. That's what I've done for some of my older SD40-2s and GP38-2s.

Okay, so here are a few photos I took in the garage tonight and doctored for comparison. Keep in mind there are several aftermarket detail parts added to these models, but each is still in factory paint, so this isn't exactly what you get right out of the box, but reasonably close:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/ryan.harris/_uimages/Old-side.JPG

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/ryan.harris/_uimages/New-side.JPG

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/ryan.harris/_uimages/New-sideXR.JPG

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/ryan.harris/_uimages/Old-end.JPG

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/ryan.harris/_uimages/New-end.JPG

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/ryan.harris/_uimages/Old-top.JPG

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/ryan.harris/_uimages/New-top.JPG

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/ryan.harris/_uimages/New-topXR.JPG


I hope that gives you some kind of idea of the external differences between new and old versions of the same Athearn locomotive. Again, the mechanism of the newer models is a different design and performs much better than its older sibling, so between the external and internal upgrades, the newer models command a higher market value. However, the older models are still a great bang for the buck - just be careful not to pay "new" tooling prices for and "old" tooling model. Check those mounting lugs! They are the telltale sign of an older model, but some advanced modelers may have removed them, so be sure to look for the other signs like molded grab irons and no fan relief if they are missing.

One more thing: with some searching you can find the newer SD40-2s for less than $40 each, which is not bad. I gladly gave $45 each for the last three I bought!

[CBCNSfan]

Hi RCH, yes I noticed the difference in the names after I posted, Rail Link and RaiLink. Railink is owned by Rail America and I just wondered if there was a connection because of the Blue yellow paint schemes, but I guess not.
I like your Tutorial on the Blue Box verses the new RTR Athearns, that is information I've been trying to find out for some time. I've been getting answers but not presented as you have. Finaly I can see justification in the increased cost of the RTR models compared to the B.B. kits. At this time the BB kit is still the best buy for me as the body shells (I don't use) end up in the junk box so all the detailing would be wasted. However there are some models I'll have to re-think (GP40, GP38, GP9) because for a few extra $$ I can save myself a lot of work.
Cheers Willis

[RCH]

Well, to be clear, these are still blue box models, although the snoots were manufactured some 15 years after the standard nose model (I've had it since I was 14).

The original Athearn SD40-2 was made in the early 80s and the simple fact that it was among (if not) the first Athearn locomotive to have a scale width hood put it ahead of the competition. Still, state of the art then was molded on grab irons, so that's what the shell came with. Athearn's standard equipment also included plastic coupler clips and mounting lugs and a slot in the pilot to allow the frame-mounted couplers to remain attached should you wish to remove the body shell. You're familiar with these features with all those U33Cs you've taken apart!

Athearn retooled the shells for these variations and updated them to include finer details like you find on the C44-9W. The "artifacts" that made the SD40-2 fall short of Athearn's GP38-2/40-2/50/60 shells have been eliminated now and some things, like the gaping pilot slot, how the shell is mounted to the frame, and the drivetrain, are improved over the GP series. Some folks find these newer SD40-2s to run "like Kato" locomotives. I personally don't find that to be the case, but they are significantly smoother than the older generation SD40-2.

Athearn does offer the SD40-2 as a Ready To Roll model, but only in a very limited number of paint schemes, each one pretty unique. So, you're not likely to build a fleet of SD40-2s by purchasing the RTR models.

Some of Athearn's RTR diesels are based on the old Rail Power Products tooling that Athearn purchased a few years ago. For those who might not remember, RPP offered unpainted body shells designed to fit Athearn chassis. RPP made pretty crude models at first, but eventually improved their products over time. Each release was a leap forward it seemed. Finally, models that either required extensive kitbashing or were limited to those who could afford brass were available for a few bucks and some modeling time.

RPP also made some shells that were direct replacements of Athearn shells, like the GP35, SD9 and SD45. Several of Athearn’s diesels from the 60s and 70s were tooled with hoods that were a scale foot too wide to accommodate the large open frame motor Athearn used to power their models. These replacement shells corrected the width problem, which was no longer an issue at the time because Athearn had begun using a narrower motor, but suffered from a lack of crispness in the tooling. Still, the effect from more than a foot away was worth the effort to replace the Athearn shell, so they were quite popular.

I can’t really post a comprehensive list of RPP’s catalog, but I remember these models:

C32-8
C30-7
B23-7
B40-8
C40-8W
C44-9W
CF7
GP35
GP40X
GP60
GP60M
GP60B
SD7/9
SD38
SD39
SD40
SD45
SD45-2
SD60
SD9043MAC
SD90MAC-H

Unfortunately for RPP (but fortunately for us modelers), the competition caught up and now most of the locomotives they offered have either been done or announced for future release.

The Athearn diesels based on the RPP tooling include:

GP60M
GP60B
CF7
GP35

Athearn’s upgrades to these models are pretty nicely done and improve the models greatly, though some lackluster elements still show up, but the line has to be drawn somewhere I suppose.

There has been some speculation on which models Athearn will offer next utilizing the RPP tooling. Personally, I’d like to see the SD40 and SD45. One thing is for sure, though: the recent releases of the SD45T-2, SD50 and SD60 as well as the forthcoming SD45-2 and MP15 do not utilize any former RPP parts.

This brings up an interesting point, too. The models Athearn developed in-house without the benefit of the RPP purchase, such as the SD45T-2, SD50 and SD60, are Ready To Roll branded locomotives just like the CF7, GP35 and the GP60M/B. However, the difference between these models and the RPP retools is tremendous. Frankly, while the former RPP models are nicely executed, they are merely a shadow of the models Athearn has developed in-house. So, for my money, I’ll give retail for any of the SD45T-2/50/60 models but the former RPP models are going to have to come down to fire-sale levels before I’ll buy them.*

So, Willis and Chris, there’s my run-down of the Athearn Ready To Roll line. If you don’t mind doing some “modeling,” and Willis is certainly not afraid of that as evidenced by his awesome stable of Alco/MLW models based on Tyco and Athearn parts, you can bring blue box models up to similar standards of the former RPP models that now appear in the RTR line. For those blue box diesels available both in kit form and RTR, the kits are a much better value, in my opinion, than their counterparts in the RTR line.

* I owned a RTR GP60M but returned it to the hobby shop after running it at home. The performance was disappointing because it would not run together with any other locomotive I have. Other people report fine running GP60s, but from what I can gather, this model was inconsistent from the factory, since I’ve also read of many others with disappointing performance.

[chrismoore93]

RCH,
Here is another auction that is an Athearn blue box. I know it is a different type of locomotive but is it one you would buy? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19130&item=5971338545&rd=1

CBCNSfan,
Sense this auction comes with standard couplers how would I change them to Kadee knuckle couplers?
Thanks,
Chris Moore

[RCH]

I would pass on this particular auction because of the damage to the headlight housing on the rear and the headlight/numberboard housing on the front, and since only the truck details for one side are shown in the photo, but those are really the only reasons to pass. This is a Phase I GP50, which has become a little more difficult to find than the Phase II GP50. That's just my personal preference, in terms of the Phase talk. But, this is a good opportunity to illustrate the difference in the two Phases.

Here's a Phase I GP50:

http://www.rosterpix.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=7364

And here's a Phase II GP50:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bnsf/bnsf3114adt.jpg

Notice the vertical bulge right in front of the "S" in Santa Fe. It has a rounded top and the handrails go straight across it. The same bulge on the Burlington Northern locomotive is angled and the handrails bend to accomodate the step over it. The bulge is known as the Traction Motor Blower Housing and the change from the earlier rounded style to the newer angled style happened during the production run of the GP50. All GP units built after the GP50 have the angled style housing and all built prior to it have the rounded style housing.

The reason I prefer the Phase I model is strictly from a modeling perspective. Athearn offers molded plastic handrails for some of their locomotives as I mentioned above. While they don't offer a set for either Phase of the GP50 yet, the side rails from a GP38-2 set will fit the Phase I GP50 while the ends are easily taken care of by the SD50 set. The thing is with that extra bend in the handrails over the blower housing on the Phase II GP50, the GP38-2 handrails won't fit that particular version.

Anyway, assuming you find a locomotive like this in good condition, the current price is a fair price.

Here's the same locomotive without any obvious damage but with the trucks assembled and painted:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19130&item=5970777249&rd=1

Here's something you might be interested in:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19130&item=5970789355&rd=1

And one more for good measure:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19130&item=5971108853&rd=1

Incidentally, I'm somewhat partial to lease locomotives since they get around quite a bit and even change hands on occasion. I photographed the prototype of this last auction in 1991 on the Burlington Northern and built my own model using this as a starting point, which you can see here:

http://www.geocities.com/norfolksouthernhinose/RCsCustomDiesels5.html

Here's a couple modified versions of Athearn's GP38-2 with the plastic handrails:

http://www.geocities.com/norfolksouthernhinose/ns1.html

If you look closely at the end handrails you can see the zig zag they make across the front and back. The GP50 Phase I has a more rounded effect while the Phase II has a very squarish bend outward, which is why you'd need to buy the SD50 handrail set to fit the ends of the GP50. I purchased my handrails directly from Horizon (the company that owns Athearn) through their website. If you're interested in the handrails should you decide not to mess with the metal ones, you can search what's available from Horizon here:

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=handrail&OverallCatID=T&BrandID=ATH&CatID=&SearchType=Standard&ResultsPerPage=60

[CBCNSfan]

Hi Chris, converting to Kadee couplers is no problem. Kadee has a website that lists the locomotives, the number of the coupler, and instructions on how to install them.
For Athearn this is the link http://www.kadee.com/conv/hocc11.htm just pick out the model you're interested in, click on it and the instructions come up in Adobe reader PDF.
Hi RC, you keep this getting better and better. I just had to go to the train room to see what I had. Yep two GP50's phase 1. Since these will not be chopped I believe I'll order the plastic rails for them. They will be representative of a Couple of the ex BN GP50's, CBNS purchased maybe #4000 and 4002, a GP40 for GEXR and a GP38 for CBNS. The stanchions left over can be used on more kitbashed Alcos. There is no choice there, the handrails have to be bent :D
Can you tell me the major differences between a SD40 and a SD40-2, I have a project on the list close to the top NBEC SD40 #6000, I have a couple of SD40-2 dummys stripped ready for details and at least one will be powered when finished.

[RCH]

Hate to do this to you, Willis, but the differences between the SD40 and the SD40-2, while pretty minor, are very difficult to "kitbash out" of the SD40-2 model.

Like the "Phase" discussion I laid out earlier, there was similar kind of change that affected all the locomotive offerings from EMD in 1972. On some locomotives, the impact wasn't very noticeable, but the SD series was given an entirely new frame and truck design, so the change is pretty major below the walkway.

SD40s and their cousins, SD38s, SD39s and SD45s, all rode on Flexicoil trucks, while the SD40-2s and their six axle Dash 2 brethren came equipped with the new HTC truck. Here's a photo illustrating the differences:

http://crcyc.railfan.net/locos/emd/sd402/trucks.jpg

On the inboard (left) side of the truck on the bottom, there's an extension of the truck's outer frame, which loops around to the other side of the truck. The traction motor hangs in this area, while the traction motor is reversed hanging toward the center axle on the Flexicoil truck. These trucks were standard equipment beginning with the Dash 2 change in 1972, so all the frames of the entire SD line were redesigned around these longer trucks.

The SD line shared a common frame from the 12 cylinder 2000 hp SD38-2 to the 20 cylinder 3600 hp SD45-2, so the frame was designed around the largest engine block. That left plenty of extra room on the ends of the smaller SD locomotives, giving them their distinctive "porches." While the original SD40s had this effect, it was certainly exaggerated by the longer frame of the SD40-2. Here's a photo showing the SD40, with its shorter porches and Flexicoil trucks:

http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=98632

DWP apparently took delivery of their SD40s with smaller fuel tanks than most, which gives the impression of more room down there than there is. So, here's an SD40 with a standard size fuel tank to illustrate how little room there really is (nevermind the high nose!):

http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=85603

The SD40-2 shown here has a full size fuel tank and the HTC trucks:

http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=101936

Also, notice the oval glass on the hood side right above the inboard axle of the rear truck. That's the water level sight glass, a feature added to all locomotives beginning with the Dash 2 line. It's only on the right side of the locomotive, but it's the easiest way to tell whether you're looking at a Dash 2 or not.

Another change, again, very minor, was made to the cab. The rear of the cab roof on Dash 2 locomotives has a slight tapered overhang, while the roof on pre-Dash 2 locomotives is flush with the rear wall.

So, to speak to your original goal of building SD40s from SD40-2s, it could be done but it would take some work. The easiest solution is to buy a Kato SD40! The second easiest thing to do is locate a Rail Power Products SD40 shell and chassis and add the guts from an Athearn SD45 or SDP40. Another way might be to purchase a Kato SD40 shell and mount it to an Athearn SD45 or SDP40 chassis. You could also shorten the porches of your SD40-2 shell, remove the sight glass and cab overhangs and mount it to a modified SD45 or SDP40 chassis.

And finally, the most difficult solution, make the same changes to your SD40-2 shell, but also shorten the chassis by removing about 3/16" (not an exact amount, but probably close) from each side between the bolsters and the fuel tank then reattaching the parts of the chassis together. Then, add trucks from an Athearn C44-9W or AC4400CW with Flexicoil sideframes from an SD45, SDP40, F45 or FP45.

Actually, adding the C44-9W trucks with SD45 sideframes to an unmodified SD40-2 chassis is what Conrail modelers do to model Conrail's SD40-2s with Flexicoil sideframes:

http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=102606

If it were me (and I will do an SD40 one day), I'd find a Kato shell and mount it to a modified SD45 frame. The Kato shell is excellent and you're going to be hard pressed to put a decent SD40 together from either the RPP SD40 shell or a modified Athearn SD40-2 shell for less money.

[CBCNSfan]

Thank's RC, I may have to do the same as you and buy a shell. I'll have to dig out the SD45 down there and see what the trucks look like. I was going to use the powertrain on a SD40-2 anyway. Looks like it'll be awhile before the NBEC loco will be ready
And if all that isn't enough it looks like the prototype has Dofasco trucks, Hard to make it out but I'm pretty sure it is.
Cheers Willis

http://www.railimages.com/albums/willisbates/acn.thumb.jpg (http://www.railimages.com/albums/willisbates/acn.sized.jpg)

[RCH]

Dofasco may well be the foundry that cast those trucks, but they sure look like dead ringers for low brake cylinder Flexicoils...

[chrismoore93]

RCH,
I found another Athearn RTR locomotive I was interested in. Is this one you would be interested in? If you've had one of these, do they run well?
Here's the auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19130&item=5971196646&rd=1#ebayphotohosting
Thanks,
Chris Moore

[CBCNSfan]

low brake cylinder Flexicoils...
Hi RC, really I have no idea about trucks and locos that's how I get into these messes, I guess the brake cylinders are attached to the horizontal pieces between the axels. In your photo I just noticed the cylinders were on the top of the truck, and that the brake rigging below was different also. I can't be sure but is the spacing between the axels different between the front axel and the center axel than from the center axel to the rear axel?
Cheers willis

[RCH]

Funny that all the photos I picked (my selection was based solely on which models had the best broadside view) had high mount cylinders. Here's one with low mount cylinders:

http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=103550&PHPSESSID=54f746b80a0faf7721c14e6f0cb3145d

I think your eyes are correct in spotting the difference in the wheel centers, but I'm going off a faint memory. I wish I had an appropriate model to check...

[RCH]

Chris, I should probably qualify any advice I give you by saying that what I'm looking for in a locomotive is fidelity to the prototype more than anything else, whether it's having all the basic dimensions and details correct for me to use as a starting point for a really detailed model or if it's one that's already detailed out of the box, I don't like to have to live with or fix a manufacturer's error.

So, if exact details and dimensions aren't that important, then this would be a good locomotive at a good price. However, some of the prices of these auctions really aren't much of a savings over buying through a mail order house like http://www.trainworld1.com/index.html or http://www.tomstrains.com/. Both of those offer pretty decent discounts and wide availability. You might also want to search here:

http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=&OverallCatID=TH&CatID=THLD

Not necessarily to buy anything, but to browse what's available. Find what you want at Athearn's website and buy from someone reputable like the two stores I linked (or any of several others). Buying on ebay can be a hit or miss thing, but some of the more reputable dealers take the chance out of the equation, so to speak, and that's the way I like to go unless I'm looking for something rare that no dealer will have.

The blue box locomotives I stay away from because they contain more dimensional errors than I care to address or have been superseded by better models are:

SDP40, SD45, SD9, GP7, GP35, SW7 ("cow" and "calf"), U28B, U30B, U33B, U28C, U30C, U33C, Train Master, PA1, and PB1.

That leaves a lot of good models, like:

GP38-2, GP40-2, GP50, GP60, GP60M, GP60B, CF7, SD50, SD60, SD70, SD70M, SD75M, SD45T-2, SD40T-2, SD40-2, F45, FP45, SW1000, SW1001, SW1500, F7A and F7B, the "new" GP35, AMD103 and F59PHI. Any of those are models I would buy without any qualifications other than being free of any damage.

If the SPSF merger scheme interests you, Athearn made the SD40-2 in that scheme a few years ago and they're still pretty easy to find. Atlas made their C30-7 in that scheme as well, and that's a locomotive that is hard to beat by any standard. In fact, one was just listed on ebay here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19131&item=5972174021&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW#ShippingPayment

You can expect to spend no less than $40 for that locomotive, maybe even more, but they pop up from time to time. But they are worth every penny! In fact, the entire Atlas line except anything described as "made in Austria" or Atlas "Roco" is a good value. Their U23B and U33/36C locomotives tend to sell at a very reasonable price, too. The way I see it, if you're willing to spend about $50 for an Atlas locomotive, it won't take you long to find one and it will become the standard against which you measure your other locomotives.

Life-Like Proto 2000 series locomotives are a pretty good value, too, but they can be pricey for what you get. Trainworld usually has some incredible deals on Proto 2000 GP7/GP9/GP18/GP20/GP30 locomotives ($39-$59 each), so I'd check there if you're interested.

Hope this helps! I know I tend to go overboard with information sometimes... ;)

[chrismoore93]

RCH,
So which one, out of those two, would you buy. The SD45 or the C30-7? Does one run better than the other?
Thanks,
Chris Moore

[HaggisKennedy]

Hi RC, really I have no idea about trucks and locos that's how I get into these messes, I guess the brake cylinders are attached to the horizontal pieces between the axels. In your photo I just noticed the cylinders were on the top of the truck, and that the brake rigging below was different also. I can't be sure but is the spacing between the axels different between the front axel and the center axel than from the center axel to the rear axel?
Cheers willis

Spacing could be different if there's an issue of the mounting of the traction motors. Depending how they're mounted, there might not be enough room between axles to clear.

Kennedy

[RCH]

RCH,
So which one, out of those two, would you buy. The SD45 or the C30-7? Does one run better than the other?
Thanks,
Chris Moore

Definitely the C30-7. It was designed at least 20 years later than the Athearn model, so it's more in line with how you can expect today's models to perform.

[RCH]

Spacing could be different if there's an issue of the mounting of the traction motors. Depending how they're mounted, there might not be enough room between axles to clear.

Kennedy

That definitely sounds reasonable to me. The traction motors on the HTC truck are all mounted on the inboard side of the axle, while two are outboard and one inboard on the Flexicoil. I would think the spacing between the two axles whose traction motors are mounted adjacent to one another (center and outer axles, near as I can tell from photos) would have greater axle spacing.

[CBCNSfan]

Posted By RCH
I would think the spacing between the two axles whose traction motors are mounted adjacent to one another (center and outer axles, near as I can tell from photos) would have greater axle spacing
http://photobucket.com/albums/y135/cbcnsfan/th_C630Truck.jpg (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y135/cbcnsfan/C630Truck.jpg)
Hi All, RCH is quite correct, In the photo above it is fairly obvious that the right axel is further from the center axel than the left axel is. The truck was mounted on a MLW C630 with all three axels powered. There were some RS18's modified to three axel trucks with even spacing between the axels, but in this arangement only two axels on the truck were powered. I suppose with today's technology and inginuety even spacing would be no problem.
Cheers Willis

[chrismoore93]

Hi,
More auctions! Tell me what you think.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19130&item=5970787300&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19130&item=5971611073&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19130&item=5972126928&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19130&item=5971703831&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19130&item=5972317147&rd=1
Hope this isn't boring you,
Chris Moore

[CBCNSfan]

Tell me what you think.
Hi Chris, In my honest opinion, you seem to branching out in all directions without any plan or reasoning, and that's not a good thing.
The first concern I have is the size of the layout you have or plan, you have some pretty big engines in that lot that are not for the small layout. Other than the largest of railroads none would have a roster of locomotives as varied as the ones you are looking at.
Do you have a specific roadname in mind or are you planning on repainting them all? This could be costly!
The reason I caution you is I guess I did the same thing when I started and the results were not the best. I bought engines that would only look right on a 30" radius, I can finaly run them on my layout now, after they sat in boxes for 20 years. Of course they have much better locos available now. I guess all I'm trying to say is to have a plan, then we can try to give you some good advice.
To tell you all the above may be or may not be a good buy for you would be careless on our part, and some of the items you can do just as good or better at the online hobby suppliers and get the roadname you want as a plus.
Cheers Willis

[chrismoore93]

Willis,
I'm not sure on the layout size, but I know it's not going to small (try to make easily stored benchwork boards thats can be stored easily.) What I'm aiming for are all the railroads that run through Illinois (where my mom is from.) Such as the: Chicago & Northwestern, Amtrak, Metra, BNSF, Illinois Central, Norfolk Southern (hasn't connected to Chicago yet), etc.
Me and my uncle are going to build a layout at his house (in a large room.) When were done I'm going to test all my larger locomotives to see what the minimum radius I should use is.
I'll keep you updated,
Chris Moore

[chrismoore93]

OK,
Here is one more Norfolk Southern auction. It is an SD50. Is it better than the other two Norfolk Southern locomotives I have listed? Here's the auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19141&item=5971784726&rd=1
Thanks,
Chris Moore
P.S. I might like this one better than the other two anyway! Let me know what you think.

[RCH]

Willis makes a good point, Chris. The SD40-2s and C30-7s as well as any of the four axle locomotives will operate on an 18" radius curve, but won't look good doing it. The C44-9Ws you linked to are good buys, but they'll barely negotiate tight curves. 22" radius curves are probably a reasonable minimum for that type. The CNW SD40-2s are pretty nice and reasonably priced, but, and I'm showing my predjudice here, while the NS diesels are loaded with details, the craftsmanship just doesn't look very good.

I think it might be a good idea for you to decide on an era you'd like to model and pick and choose from there. Chicago is pretty wide open when it comes to railroads - every railroad connected to Chicago it seems - so it will get expensive trying to represent a little of everything related to Illinois. It's like trying to build a model of every ship that's sailed the Atlantic! You may be like me and like different eras, but I've really had to pare down what I like the most to get a focused collection going. The reason I point out era is that some of the models you've shown an interest in are painted in different schemes that would not have appeared together. For example, the failed SPSF merger of 1985 left Santa Fe with many locomotives to repaint, but they managed to get the job done before the C44-9Ws arrived.

[chrismoore93]

So would the SD50 be a bad choice? Maybe i'll choose the railroads I'm going to model and let you know. I think everyone wishes they could model every railroad :p
Thanks,
Chris Moore

[CBCNSfan]

Hi Chris, the SD50 could be a good choice if that is what you need for your layout, but if it isn't then it would be a bad choice. To put it another way " If widgets were selling retail for $35 each and you won a new one on ebay for $15 plus $5 for S&H, but you had no use for a widget, then my friend you just wasted $20 that could have been spent getting something you could use.
The Athearn SD50 RTR is a nice looking Loco, and at $30 it would be a steal. However that auction has 3 days to go and I doubt it will go for less than $50 and that's not a bad price either. Having said that, if you plan a layout with 18" radius, a loco that size (even if it tracks ok) will not look good. In regards to eBay, ask yourself why the seller is parting with the item.
I'm following an eBay saga on another forum, the buyer purchased a supposedly new 4-8-4 loco. After several minutes of running the drivers and side rods came apart, the problem will most likely be the cracked axel syndrome the best repair being that he replace the drivers. End result is that this good buy may end up costing him more than if he had bought a new one from a dealer. Don't get me wrong, I use ebay, but I'm darn carefull and research the auction first. Plan out your layout, then pick a roadname and some rolling stock that will look realistic on it.
Cheers willis

[RCH]

I think the SD50, either the Proto2000 version or the Athearn version, is an excellent locomotive. But, I think it might be more efficient for you to formulate a list of goals than to ask for a thumbs up or down on these various locomotives. I don't have a problem offering my opinion (what, am I up to 20,000 words on this thread yet?;)), but we could spend months hashing out the positives and negatives of each model, paint schemes, era, etc.

So, maybe if we develop some sort of "survey" here, posing questions to find out what your specific interests are as well as your goals, we could save you a lot of time, money and aggravation. Nobody likes to buy something they're excited about only to find out it falls short of their expectations, so I truly understand what you're driving at. But, what your expectations are is probably more important in terms of best answering your questions.

Are you on board with this Willis? Any other experienced model railroaders are welcome to join in. I certainly can't claim to know very much about this hobby besides building and painting models, maybe a little about operation, so everyone's expertise will help.

Right off the top of my head, how's this as a start:

Which one railroad would you model if you were modeling only one?

Which period of 5 years would you be most interested in modeling (e.g., 1980-1985)?

Which style of operation interests you the most?

Yard Switching
Industrial Switching
Mainline Running
Transfer Railroad
Continuous Running
Other


How many locomotives and freight cars would you operate at a given time (what I mean by this is, what do you think is enough to make a train: 10 cars, 15 cars, etc. and how many trains)?

Do you plan to operate alone or with one or more others?

How much money would your limit be per locomotive? Per freight or passenger car?

Willis addressed curve radius already, so I won't repeat him, but some locomotives and even more cars require large radii curves. Do you expect any limitations in your allotted space?

Any industries you are particularly fond of modeling?

Like I said, these are the questions I've asked myself to find out what I want to model. There are more I'm sure others can ask. My approach to modeling is what some would consider very narrow, so I may not be the best person to help out, but at the very least this may be food for thought.

In my opinion, finding out where you stand on this kind of thing is more important than which locomotive to buy. Without knowing where you're going, how can you know what will do the best job to take you there?

[CBCNSfan]

Are you on board with this Willis?
Hi RC yes I'm onboard definately with a questioner aimed at developing a layout with a theme, really it's the only way to go. I'm certainly no expert on model rail or any aspect of it for that matter, but I have learned much from others and by my past mistakes. Maybe I should have been a bush pilot in the far North as I've always been a risk taker.
Right off, I like the first question as a good place to start, it has a direct bearing on the size of layout required to make it look like a realistic segament of that road.
Hi Chris, I take it the next step is up to you to choose one road name, bear in mind you will be able to change it as we go along. Most likely a lot of things will be decided then changed later until a good plan is developed.
Cheers Willis

[chrismoore93]

CBCNSfan or RCH,
I'm having a problem on the forum. If I click on active topics or new posts a bulletin pops up that says I must be a member to view this page and I am logged in.
Whats wrong?
Chris Moore
P.S. This was the only place I could post something.

[chrismoore93]

Woops,
I solved my own problem. It seems there were no new posts.
CBCNSfan, I was thinking, one roadname I would like to model would probably be Amtrak. Of course you know I want to throw in some Metra and freight lines :D :p
Still not sure on the size of the layout. Hmmm, how big should it be :confused: Well, let me ask you. If you DIDN'T have a basement and you had to build a layout in the garage, how big would YOU make it?

Chris Moore

P.S. Sence it might have to be small, I might do a double-decker layout.
P.S.S. :p Unless I find another place :D

[CBCNSfan]

I was thinking, one roadname I would like to model would probably be Amtrak. Of course you know I want to throw in some Metra and freight lines
Hi Chris, uH! Uh! nope! only one road name the rest will develop.
just as an example, if you still want Amtrak we will be looking at a passenger orientated layout. Development will start from that, leaving room for a secondary freight operation with another roadname. So what is your primary interest, passenger or freight?
Cheers Willis

[chrismoore93]

Willis,
There is no way I could choose between freight or passenger. I guess I can't give you an answer there. If I do though I'll let you know.
Chris Moore

[CBCNSfan]

There is no way I could choose between freight or passenger.
Hi Chris, perhaps I didn't phrase it correctly, it's not actually a choice between the two, the question is which operation will be the primary operation.
For example on my layout freight is the primary revenue maker. All freight locos are lettered for the CB&CNS, well except for GEXR, RaiLink and ex BN's with CBNS patches and maybe some other road names which the CB&CNS did actually operate in this area. Passenger service will be by a lashup of CN FA's and CN FP9's. So from that you can gather I have a plan that is realistic, adapts to actual situations or situations that could have been in the 70's (my era of operation), The passenger service has to be CN as Via did not exist then. I hope this gives you some idea of what we are trying to do to help you to develop a plan. As you can see I'm not limited to one roadname or operation but every situation has a plausable explaination for what I'm doing. ( Keeps the NIT Pickers at bey :D
Cheers Willis
also seen on the CB&CNS http://www.railroadforums.com/photos/data/568/medium/3007IOR62ls.JPG just to give you an idea of the possibilities, but you have to start from somewhere. :D

[chrismoore93]

Willis,
I think I would like my primary operation to be freight. Heck instead of operating railroads in Illinois I might just have the setting in Arizona (where I'm from.) This way I can have the primary service be freight(BNSF or UP). I guess I'll have to choose.
Thanks,
Chris Moore

[CBCNSfan]

This way I can have the primary service be freight(BNSF or UP). I guess I'll have to choose. Do both RR's use the same trackage, or is their trackage close to each other?

[chrismoore93]

Willis,
I'm talking about Flagstaff, Arizona where the two lines meet.
Chris Moore

[CBCNSfan]

where the two lines meet.
Good that's a start, now tell us a bit about the operation in the Flagstaff trains area. Is this an interchange yard between the two Railroads? Or do the two roads pass through it?
Cheers Willis

[chrismoore93]

Willis,
Basically there are alot of streets, with alot of track, a freight station and an Amtrak Station. No, the two are not combined (stations.) Basically a train passes through every other minute( that is about how busy it is.)
Chris Moore

[CBCNSfan]

OK, does Amtrak use the rails of both major roads (BN and UP) ?
Also do BN and UP use the same freight buildings or are both roads seperated by some distance? ( don't forget I've never been in your area so you have to draw the picture for me :D)
Cheers Willis

[chrismoore93]

CBCNSfan,
Sorry about doing this to you but, i'm going to switch back to passenger services as my primary operation. Probably make the setting in a made-up town in Illinois (or a few made-up towns) or maybe not. This way I can kill two birds with one stone. I'll probably use two passenger services (Amtrak, Metra.)
Sorry about switching,
Chris Moore

[CBCNSfan]

No problem, we haven't started yet. Ok what era or decade do you want to model, the present or some time back in the past?
Then, what locos does Amtrak use in your area for your time frame and what type of locos does Metra use for the same era?
Chris, all we are trying to do here is establish a roster of locos that would lend creditability to your layout. To put it the broadest sense what would it look like if you were running the latest in Amtrak rollingstock and a freight hauled by a steam engine came thundering through the scene, not very realistic :D
Cheers Willis

[chrismoore93]

Willis,
It's not the Amtrak in my area, it is the Amtrak in The Illinois area. I'm planning on modeling the modern era. I'll let you know what locomotives are commonly used on Metra (Metropolitan Rail.) I'm sure Amtrak would use the same loco's they do for any other states. Such as: the AMD-103 or P40-2 (P40 also, I think) F40PH etc.
Chris Moore