P2K Clunkers

[CBCNSfan]

Hi I'm kind of in the market for a LifeLike P2K RS10 or RS18. However they cost a lot of $$$ here in the boondocks, and I'm somewhat hesitent to purchase. My concern is Ive seen quite a few posts around the net concerning cracked gear problems. I guess a lot of the time you hear the bad points but rarely the good. So before I put out $200 to $300 for one of these locos I'd like to know a bit more about the lifeLike line. In your opinion would you buy one? why? or why not?
Please NO Trashing the manufacturer, If you have had a good experience please tell us about, and if you had a problem I'd like to know about it and what was done to fix it.
Cheers Willis

[mushroom2]

I like 'em. They run well with others, look real nice and LifeLike supports them.
Yes there have been issues with the older P2K axel gears. But, I've got a bag of thirty axels here thet LifeLike sent me no questions asked, no charge. And that issue has been resolved on their newer stuff.
I don't think they are worth $200 to $300 though. I'd sit on that for awhile. 6 months from now they should be a lot cheaper on line.

[CBCNSfan]

Ah! sorry $Cdn. a little conversion is in order 164 to 246 $US plus shipping. We don't have too much choice as we have to purchase from a Horizon Hobbys dealer. The RS18 with sound is about $499 Cdn.
but then again there would be a 15% tax on top of it
Cheers Willis

[CP9302]

I'm a big fan of P2K. I've got SD60's, GP38-2's, GP18's and SW900's from them. I had one split gear on an original run GP18 and my dad had a split gear on one of his GP30's.
P2K engines look great and run well. They have a lot of weight to them so they pull well too.
I'm not a big fan of the QSI sound system though. It is nice to have sound out of the box, but I find Soundtraxx is an easier system to setup and use.
As a fellow Canadian, I feel your pain on the exchange rates, but at least they are not as bad as they used to be. You may want to consider E-Bay as an option too.

[modelbob]

> We don't have too much choice as we have to
> purchase from a Horizon Hobbys dealer.

First of all, let me say I'm a firm believer in supporting your local hobby shop. They can't survive on just rail joiners and bright boys, so I try and buy local when I can. I've bought about 2/3 of my rolling stock from dealers, a few pieces from trains shows, and a few things online when the prices were simply too good to pass up.

That said, if the price is simply way out of line, can't you find an online store that will ship to you? I would think you could...

[CBCNSfan]

I'm a firm believer in supporting your local hobby shop.
Well on that, I also am a firm believer, BUT there isn't one close to here for me to support. When there was, I certainly was one of his best customers, and that statement was from the propritor himself. A lot of my locos I purchased from him. I guess not enough did support him and now there is none (Hobby Shop). However I do order my stuff from a hobby shop in the next Province, and they certainly have been decent with me as far as prices go.
Horizon Hobbys will not deal with a business unless it has a store front, or at least they didn't when they became a distributer for LifeLike. A lot of the LL models they distribute are Canadianized (sort of, MLW's and such) so I don't know if we could order them from the US online mail order stores. There is no doubt in my mind when the " Gotta Have it customers" are satisfied they will drop in price. However there's another catch to this, most of them are limited production runs, so who knows how long that will take. I'm pushing 70 so they have more time than I have to wait it out.

I'm not a big fan of the QSI sound system though Hi CP well I certainly wouldn't pay $500+ shipping and 15% tax on top of the total for any plastic loco no matter what it had. I will most likely stay with my under the table sound systems ( which I haven't used yet :D ), I'd rather invest the money into a good DCC system. I do buy and sometimes sell on ebay, stung a couple of times but what the heck I got a lot of good bargins to make up for it :D
Have you had any problem with the LifeLike units you have purchased so far?
Cheers Willis

[CP9302]

Have you had any problem with the LifeLike units you have purchased so far?

I had one split gear on an original run GP18. But that model was made 10-12 years ago. My dad had a split gear on a GP30. I havn't hear of any problems with the newer stuff (SD/GP60 SD50 GP38-2)

As another purchasing option, have you tried Pacific Western yet? They are out of B.C. and have a great selection of Canadian stuff. The prices are usually reasonable too.

http://www.pacific-western-rail.com/main.php

[kenw]

one problem with the split gears was that the replacements would eventually do the same (mine all did). granted this was a few years ago, when the GP20 were new.

second time, i slightly reamed out the gear center hole so that it wasn't as tight on the axle, but still somewhat a press fit. Then a drop of superglue held it firmly.

In engineering terms, the hoop stress that the metal axle caused upon the plastic gear would cause the gear to split exactly at the knit line. The real fix is for LL to make the hole a bit larger to reduce the stress. Sounds exactly like what was done if newer units don't have this problem....

[HaggisKennedy]

The only thing I don't like about superglue is that it's not really strong on the shear force aspect of the bonding. Straight-away pulling is top-notch strength, but at an angle (like 90 degrees), there's not much strength there at all.

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

Straight-away pulling is top-notch strength, but at an angle (like 90 degrees), there's not much strength there at all.
Hi Kennedy agreed on that point and it should be noted. Also to be noted is it's fast setting time, which is necessary for tasks like putting metal corner pieces in an Alco RS11 to make a MLW RS18. Yes the super glues, well they are kind of a crystaline bond in fact a shock ( like a trip to the floor) can send parts flying everywhere, believe me I know. However most parts I mount with it, are like Horns which fit into a drilled hole like the grab irons also. On the C630's the big intercooler filters are also recessed into the carbody so side pressure on the bond in most cases is almost non existant. Athern handrails to stanchions joints is another place I use it. Plasic details and reforcing pieces ect. I use the Testors only not only for strength in the bond but it does allow a little slight adjustment time.
Cheers Willis

[kenw]

well, the superglue is still holding on mine, albeit with very infrequent use now. The glue wicked under the gear and set up in the microscopic gap between the axle and gear. note that i didn't have to apply it until after i had the gear pressed on and located.

I would suppose a smear of 5 minuite epoxy would suffice and take shock loads much better, altho in my experience it doesn't bond as well to polished surfaces like axles.

[CBCNSfan]

would suppose a smear of 5 minuite epoxy would suffice I don't know about that. I believe you've made the right decision with the super glue. As you say the glue wicks into the open spaces making a bond all around including shoulders where the axel meets the side of the gear. this would not happen with the epoxy.
Cheers Willis

[HaggisKennedy]

The smooth surface is a key. You're press-fitting a gear onto a smooth axle. If it's tight enough, I don't really think that an adhesive is needed for normal running. By that I mean not pulling the max load during operations.

The next key is initial torque caused by the motor applying force to the gear, to move the loco. It this torque causes the gear to slip due to no friction surface on the axle to provide a grip, then one would logically use an adhesive to hold the gear tight against the axle. Superglue, due to the wicking, works here.

But, the fact that you need superglue to hold the gear to the smooth axle to avoid slipping also means you are applying a shear force to the bonding characteristics of superglue. Which isn't it's strong suit.

In summary (!), if you're using superglue to hold something in place so it doesn't move, superglue shouldn't be your first choice, given the above. However, a lot of people use it just for this purpose, and it seems to work. So, I'm probably missing something.

:)

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

a lot of people use it just for this purpose, and it seems to work. So, I'm probably missing something. No, seriously I doubt that you are missing anything, the facts are there to support what you are saying, its just that the forces being applied in this case are not powerfull enough to break the bond. If the torque developed was strong enough ( greater than what it takes to stall a model loco engine) the bond could possibly shatter like glass. Just a thought.
Cheers Willis

[HaggisKennedy]

In that case then, the most likely explanation is that the torque applied to move the loco is great enough to slip the gear on the axle, but not enough to break the bond via shear. The other element which I thought of in my previous post, but not articulated clearly, is that the torque application is gradual, not sudden. Which will keep the crystalline bond intact.

But, if your loco is speeding forward, and you flip the direction switch without turning off the forward throttle setting first, you may have a good chance of shearing it off. Depends on the flywheel momentum cushioning the direction change....

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

if your loco is speeding forward, and you flip the direction switch without turning off the forward throttle setting first, you may have a good chance of shearing it off Hmmmm! why would you want to do that? I sure wouldn't Ouch! I can smell the dynamic brakes already :D
Cheers Willis

[ak-milw]

I have two SW1200 switchers,one SD7, one GP9 and I have never had a problem with any of them. They run and look great! :cool:

[catt]

To my way of thinking the best thing to do in this situation would be to take a small file and rough up the axle where the gear sets.

This with or without the superglue would help keep the gear from slipping on the axle after the hole is opened up.

This would also give the glue something to grip as it wicked into all those little places.

[CBCNSfan]

I have two SW1200 switchers,one SD7, one GP9 and I have never had a problem with any of them Yes I can believe that and there are many others that have no problems that we never hear about. I guess we hear mostly from people who do have this same problem. It sort of put me into a wait and see attitude. However it's comforting to know that Life Like is backing their product with service to the customer. I most likely won't hold out any longer at least from a few pictures here on the forum it looks like a good product details wise.
Cheers Willis

[NBEC_6900]

CB&CNSfan,

Do you have a CBNS GP50 on your layout?? I got one about 2 years ago, bought it at the local hobby shop, paid about 60$, but I a good deal, and it was bought by a guy, he did a custom weather job, and sold it about 80$ I think. The engine just itself is worth about 100$. I'll post pics of the unit. It's my favorite one right now!! Runs very well, and I keep the wheels cleaned regularly, the strongest unit in my bunch. I have a old Athearn CN C630M (don't know if it's rare. If it is, I might restore it), a Athearn SP SW1500 and a Bachmann CN GP40 from a starter set. The Geep 40 I'm having problems with, looks like the fuse is burnt out, but is there a way to bypass it?

Edit: I'm not sure if the C630 is either a Tyco or a Athearn, but I think it's Tyco. Is it rare???

[CBCNSfan]

Hi NBEC 6900 Hmmm! incidently your username will be one of my next kitbashes after the CB&CNS GP9 5967 I'm doing now.
I'm not sure if the C630 is either a Tyco or a Athearn, but I think it's Tyco. Is it rare??? Seriously I doubt it, it's most likely a Tyco, have a look at this thread.
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=518
I don't believe Athearn ever made a C630, Tyco was the most plentiful and IHC made a low nose short hood one, these actually were toys, Stewart hobbies has a quality model C630 and Overland makes a highly detailed brass loco.
The CBNS GP50 you have was probably done by Will Lawrence, a skilled craftsman, if so it is a very well done and highly detailed model. The GP50's, I have two in waiting, they will be in the last kitbashes I'll be doing, the CBNS GP50's were ex BN locos in the 5000 road number series. I also have a GP40 which will be done as GEXR 4022 which has been on the CB&CNS since the start and a GP38 as CBNS 3800 which never saw service on the road. It and it's sisters were supposed to operate where the NBEC is operating now, but Railtex lost out on the tender and NBEC was born.
Bachmann CN GP40 from a starter set. The Geep 40 I'm having problems with, looks like the fuse is burnt out, but is there a way to bypass it? I have one of them Bachmann GP40's downstairs CN #5075, trainset loco really not much good unless it's a flat surface. I'm afraid there is no fuse in them just two lights a circuit board to carry power from the rear trucks to the motor, so my guess is your problem is brushes or the motor armature is burnt, sorry that's all I can come up with for the Bachmann.
Cheers Willis

[NBEC_6900]

G'Day

Sounds good. When you start on your NBEC SD40, show some pics, I'm trying to get one of those custom painted, but it's hard to find a Athearn SD40.

[CBCNSfan]

but it's hard to find a Athearn SD40 Gee! I don't think Athearn makes an SD40, myself I'm going to use a couple of SD40-2's, (the decal set also contains a CFMG set), and do the best I can with it. I don't know what the differences are between the two models but I'll do the best I can with it from the photos I have, using available detail parts. I think the differences appear to be of a minor nature, however I could be wrong.
Cheers Willis

[Russian]

I have one of them Bachmann GP40's downstairs CN #5075, trainset loco really not much good unless it's a flat surface. I'm afraid there is no fuse in them just two lights a circuit board to carry power from the rear trucks to the motor, so my guess is your problem is brushes or the motor armature is burnt, sorry that's all I can come up with for the Bachmann.
Cheers Willis
so if its a flat surface (what I'm running exept for one long spur), they're ok units? As I'm looking at buying a SOO/CP one.

CN 5075 was a SD40 BTW.:p

[grande man]

As a side note on the subject, our new GP20 came out of the box with three of the four axle gears cracked! This unit is early enough to not have a DCC plug, but is brand new. We've been running P2K stuff for a while and had maybe two cracked gears in the past. I swapped them out with some old Athearn gears we had on hand, problem solved. I'll be glad to change more gears if that's what it takes. IMHO, P2K models are the best bang for the buck. They run very well and the detail is fantastic. We'll keep buying them until Walther's prices jack the internet market price up to high. :(

[jbaakko]

lol, funny you say that Grandeman, all my P2K's have rund perfectly out of the box, BUT my GP7... Grrra, annoying, but she's got alotta work to go so no worries! I love my P2K's cept I wish they had metal lift rings and grab irons...

[ssw9662]

P2K is pretty good. I have an NS SD60M and it runs very well. The only thing I don't like about P2K engines is how you have to attach the shell to the frame, I am very skilled at breaking things ;) .

[jfugate]

I've got something like 40+ locos that I've been running on the Siskiyou Line for years -- Kato, Atlas, Athearn, Stewart, and Lifelike.

So we're talking long-term heavy-duty running in serious op sessions. Lots of wear and tear, in other words.

The biggest maintenance headaches are the Lifelikes. Now we're talking SD9s and GP9s here. Don't know about other LL models.

The P2K's look great, and run fairly well out of the box for a time. But after the first year of constant use, their power pickup degrades significantly. I've tried everything I can think of to improve it, and nothing seems to be an easy fix. At this point, I've pretty much decided to keep the shells and replace the guts with A1-Propower West mechanisms.

I have spoken with other SP modelers in my area who have gotten the P2K SD9s and they've all told me they won't buy another P2K SD9 or GP9, so I know it's not just me.

[sushob]

At this point, I've pretty much decided to keep the shells and replace the guts with A1-Propower West mechanisms

You mean these? (A-line / Proto Power West mechanisms) http://www.ppw-aline.com/LocoChassis.htm

I have a couple P2K locomotives that I'm *hoping* to use to model the local switchers. The replacement mechanisms look nice, but they also cost four times what I paided for the locomotive to begin with. If it's just the motor that needs replacement, I think I'll see if I can figure out a way to shove a Stewart motor in there...

[TWhite]

I can only speak for the two P2K steamers I have, since I don't run diesels, but I'm very disappointed in the pulling characteristics. I don't know how the diesels pull, but my 0-8-0 can barely get a small cut of cars around my yard, and my 2-8-8-2 has been relegated to helper service because of their poor pulling power. Granted, they are beautiful looking locomotives, and nicely detailed and smooth running, but let's face it, you buy a locomotive to pull trains, right? Not just run around the layout by themselves looking beautiful?
Sorry, but until they improve their pulling characteristics, I'm not interested in any more Protos.
Tom

[jfugate]

You mean these? (A-line / Proto Power West mechanisms) http://www.ppw-aline.com/LocoChassis.htm

I have a couple P2K locomotives that I'm *hoping* to use to model the local switchers. The replacement mechanisms look nice, but they also cost four times what I paided for the locomotive to begin with. If it's just the motor that needs replacement, I think I'll see if I can figure out a way to shove a Stewart motor in there...

Yep, those.

When you are talking power pickup, you have to replace the power trucks. I tried just doing that part, but it was so much of a cut and fit headache that I decided the extra cost for the complete chassis was worth it.

I'm doing a loco at a time as I can afford it. And pulling the guts out of about half of the P2Ks and making them into dummies with sound, again as I can afford it.

[jbaakko]

I like the PPW chassis, only cause they're powering 6 SD40-2's and a Dash 8 on my layout!

[Brakie]

Well...I went from a big fan of P2K and now they are on my do not buy list..The reason behind this is simple.I had 16 GP9s,10 GP7s and 4 GP30s.I had to replace the gears in each of these units.I sold/traded all but 4 GP9s that is DCC and Sound equipped.Another thing is the way the prices keeps going up on these P2K units.
================================================== ========

Willis,Athearn will be releasing a SD40 in the RTR line as well as a RTR SD38.

SD40
http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=SD40+RTR&CatID=THLD

SD38
http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=SD38+RTR&CatID=THLD

[CBCNSfan]

Thank's Brakie, I'm wondering why the undec is going to be $10 more than road names. Odd, but I'll be on the lookout for a couple anyway. $10ea. seems a fair price for not having to strip them :)

http://bestsmileys.com/textinbubble1/13.gif Willis

Hmmm! the undec SD38 is the same price as the rest, odder still, oh well :D

[HaggisKennedy]

Sometimes the undecs have a lot more pieces so the buyer can build the loco to whatever line he wants. Dunno about the $10 amount, I've wondered about that as well.

Kennedy

[JeffShultz]

Hey Joe - what locos on your layout are Stewarts?