In Your Opinion Brass or Plastic Models? Do you ever wonder?

[CBCNSfan]

Something that has been bugging me for awhile.
I haven't seen any cheap brass loco's or rolling stock , but I've seen decent plastic or epoxy models for under $200, much below the cost of brass. I've never seen an article on kitbashing, using a brass model. I've seen plastic built up models, I dare say more accurate than brass built by members of this forum. I guess what bugs me is the cost of the brass models when compared to quality models of other materials. After they are painted is there really any difference to a viewer? I ask myself if an injection molded rivet is any less accurate or attractive than a stamped one? So what is it about brass models that make them any better than a quality plastic model and with a price tag of three times as much?

Cheers Willis

[DanRaitz]

Willas,

I my view brass "is not" any better then the top of the line plastic, i.e. Kato, Atlas, P2K, Athearn Genesis. The only reason that brass has gotten so expensive is that the brass importers have focused on the train collecter to the detriment of the model railroader. It used to be that some brass locomotives where imported in the thousands per run, whereas now they are imported in the hundreds or less per run.
Personally I have a few brass units, but I won't be adding to them unless I find a very good deal on an locomotive that is not available or kitbashable in plastic.

Dan

[modelbob]

> After they are painted is there really any difference to a viewer?

Yes, I think there is a difference between metal and plastic. It's subtle, but it's there. It has to do with "index of refraction" which is what makes a black rubber ball reflect light different than a black steel ball. Even painted, the metal just looks harder, because of the way the light hits it. Done right, the brass can be more detailed.

On the other hand, I don't own any Brass locos. The most expensive engine I own is a Broadway Limited GG1. It's diecast metal, which I don't think is brass. It's certainly not as expensive as Brass, as I've seen them on sale for about $120 recently.

They're very nicely detailed, come with DCC and sound systems. I'm very impressed, and have become an instant fan of BLI.

> So what is it about brass models that make them any better than
> a quality plastic model and with a price tag of three times as much?

They tend to be more detailed, though as you mention plastic is getting much better these days. Also, they tend to be produced in more limited runs, so the development costs can't be spread out over as many units.

I'm sure there's a lot of "supply and demand" economics in there too. On the other hand, even used brass consistently sells for pretty high prices, so there must be a lot of folks out there who think it's worth the money.

I've seen lots of brass over the years, and while I came real close to buying a used brass model of our 2-8-2T #17 last fall, I just couldn't bring myself to part with $400...

[CBCNSfan]

the brass importers have focused on the train collecter to the detriment of the model railroader

Hi Dan, yes that would make sense to me as most modelers could kitbash a respectable plastic model with a quality drive for under $300. That being the case the only brass that would be sold to the MR group, would be to the gotta have it crowd and those who just want to put it in a showcase for looks.

They tend to be more detailed

Hi Bob, Well I have seen some highly detailed brass with signs "Please do not touch" that could have had a bit more detail to make them visibly correct, and I have seen quite a few plastic that were quite correct. Would this be because after paying 6 or 700 bucks for the brass, the owner is hesitant to change anything? Now in the case of the quality plastic loco, the wife of a friend of mine looked on in absolute horror as he took a saw to his brand new $200 loco which he had just purchased :D the end result however was he ended up with a visibly correct model. Even if the detail is better, but not correct for a certain model, is the very little extra worth it?

Cheers Willis

[kenw]

I think the reason there are fewer imported is the fact that high quality plastics have eroded much of the market. Certainly those who run these are a large % of those who are more likely to switch to a reasonable plastic version.

"Back in the day", brass was the ONLY way to get even close without doing it all yourself. So the brass market of yore included not only the collector who never runs them, but also a lot of "normal" model railroaders who just wanted well detailed and quality stuff. The choices were pretty extreme: junk or brass.

Now that much of the "well detailed and quality" market has moved to plastic, there is a much smaller market for brass. Less market = less volume = each unit costs more, add this to the fact that wages in the places producing these have gone up like everywhere else, the price is up.

and Willis said:
"..... Even if the detail is better, but not correct for a certain model, is the very little extra worth it?"

only he can make that decision, no one else can judge it for him. "value" or "worth it" is far too subjective.

[HaggisKennedy]

There's really no such thing as a cheap brass model; the production runs just don't amortize the development and manufacturing costs incurred. If you get something relatively inexpensive, there's something wrong with it (older model, stained, etc.). There's a saying: Todays premium price is tomorrow's bargain price.

Having said that, I've bought some relatively older brass steamers that were on consignment at Caboose Hobbies. $295 was the cheapest; the biggest ding was that the brass was stained from the red foam (this is a known issue). I didn't care, I'm repainting it as a runner anyway. As a GN modeller, there isn't much GN steam out there, due to the Belpaire boiler config which is different than the Pennsy Belpaire config.

My most expensive brass steamer is a GN 2-6-8-0 painted in the Glacier scheme. $1350, which was pretty reasonable, actually. I'm waiting for the Soundtraxx Tsunami to be released; then I'm shipping it off to the guy who's doing my installs...

Kennedy

[sushob]

Seeing as I don't own any brass, nor much plastic, my opinion may be a bit missguided, but I'm gonna give it to ya anyway :p . The details in plastic can be just as good as brass (anyone notice the grabs on the Bowser N-8? Talk about precision machining! And then having to redo the mold because people complained about them being too thin...first time I've ever heard of people complaining about things being to exact scale...LoL) Brass models have great detail too, and makes more sense for very specialized items where the market may be small, but something about brass models bugs me. Well, the brass models themselves don't bother me, but the fact that they're almost all made overseas does. And the fact that a lot of companies take pride in having these imported also deeply annoys me ("Proudly produced by so and so of Korea," or "precision crafted in China") . What happened to American pride? Ya know, where people could pronounce the name of the company that made their model train? Or, goodness forbid, they may have even known the guy who made it? Well, anyway, it makes it difficult for those of us who still believe in making things domestically to 'survive' in the model market (or any manufacturing market for that matter...ie Pennsylvania House will now be made in China...there goes another customer...and another deceiving company name...should be China House... :mad: ). Sorry...didn't mean to rant aimlessly...where was I... I think it's kinda sad that people complain about the economy, and then go to Wal-mart and buy the cheapest thing on the shelf, so that what little money they do spend doesn't support our economy, but instead floats across the ocean to some sweatshop...grrr...and to think that the United States Army is having some of their own weapons made overseas...seems pretty scary to me. Wow...I think this is the longest message I've ever typed on the internet...didn't mean to get so off-topic...sorry :o

[sushob]

Ok...now that I've had some supper and I seem to be thinking a bit more rationally, let me add a disclaimer :D

I don't have anything against those who buy brass models that are made overseas, or any product made overseas for that matter, because I find myself with made in China merchandise quite frequently. I'm more 'errked' by the companies that are proud of moving manufacturing out of the states. While it may reduce production costs (a lot), reduce retail prices (which are still plenty high) and increase the companies bottom line (which is what it's really about), it takes something away from the end product...not necessarily visible detail, but something just isn't the same as a model (brass, plastic, or paper mache for all it matters) that's made here at home...

[mushroom2]

The US priced itself out of the brass manufacturing business so long ago that I doubt there is anyplace who could do it at a resonable price.
Heck, I remember when Korea was an unknown and was trying to get into the market. At that time Japan was the country doing brass at affordable prices. Someone decided to try this Korean company and sent them a caboose to do. It was a disaster. Parts were crooked, although the castings weren't all that bad. They even painted it, by dipping it in some orange paint they had available. I could probably find out who did the one I have, I have his thumbprint in the paint :D

[CBCNSfan]

I don't have anything against those who buy brass models that are made overseas, or any product made overseas for that matter, because I find myself with made in China merchandise quite frequently.
Wow! surprising what a good supper will do for a fellow :D At the heart of the matter is that like everyone else we all want to get the best buy for our dollars. If you had the choice of paying 50 to 75% more for a comparitive model made in the US, would you? It is difficult for business on this continent to compete with the low cost of manufacturing in newly developing countries. One could also wonder who owns the controling interest in these corporations, most likely you will find they do not live in the host country. But in any case, nowdays it seems that even the plastic models are made off shore, so a comparison of the manufacturing costs of brass and plastic models is feasible. As far as the actual manufacturing work goes, stamping and assembling a brass model is a some what more labour intensive than mold injection for a plastic. However the costs of heating the plastic for the injection process can be costly also not to mention the labour put into designing and making the injection mold.

Cheers Willis

[HaggisKennedy]

The Japanese stuff was decent because those folks had to make their own during and soon after the War. They developed their industry in that area, but eventually priced themselves out of the market. Enter the Koreans, who could do just as good a job, but at less cost.

The one source I read was that soldiers stationed in Japan saw the quality of their products, and started buying them and shipping them home for their layouts...

Kennedy

[HaggisKennedy]

It is true that the fidelity of plastic models is approaching that of brass. But, brass will always have a spot in the hobby because only brass will do those models that are just about one-offs. Who's going to make an Alco Century 636? Alco only built 36 of the things, nobody is going to do a plastic run of those!

I want a GN Y1a electric, it's a 'one-off'; a Y1 boxcab that went off of a trestle. The frame and mechanicals were still serviceable, so they bought two FT cabs from EMD and fabricated a carbody. Painted it all up in Empire Builder colors. Still, at least one brass manufacturer did a run of these....

Kennedy

[sushob]

However the costs of heating the plastic for the injection process can be costly also not to mention the labour put into designing and making the injection mold.

Had this whole message typed when I apparently tilted my laptop the wrong way and it threw a fit. Oh well...my fingers need some exercise...I've got a lab report due Monday :rolleyes:

Ahh...injection molding...now there's a subject I can understand! :D Our molding machine is relatively new. And sure it's huge, has 110 tons of clamping force, heats plastic to 400+ degrees and shoots it into a mold at several hundred PSI, but it's actually a bit of a gentle giant. It doesn't take as much electricity as one may think to heat up the plastic...it's not really that much different than an electric stove. Yes it's larger, and therefore requires more energy, but the idea and energy consumption is fairly relative. It's actually a rather quite machine (unless the bored operator starts singing, in which case you are better off turning on a bench grinder, or two :rolleyes: ). It's an extremely sensitive machine...which is many times learned the hard way. The other night my dad and I were making a chute of sorts in an attempt to eliminate an extra conveyer and excessive static that was causing the roof walks we were running to cling to everything, and I closed the mold while it was cold. Since it hadn't expanded as it does when it is heated during production, it moved and extra three or four thousandths, and threw a fit.

The cost of building a mold is something that most people don't understand, and I'm glad you brought that up. Many hours go into design before any metal is ever touched. Researching blue prints, finding photographs, and sometimes even finding and measuring the car itself (made a nice trip to the PA rail museum in Strasburg :D and got the whole family out into the 'yard') adds up. Then many more hours are spent in Auto CAD and BobCAD drawing, scaling, programming, etc. Some of the details have to be burnt into the mold via EDM, which means making an electrode, which means writing a CNC program (which is relayed to the CNC via a decade old computer running Windows 3.1 :D ) and often times creating cutters that are find enough to produce the detail. Even before building the mold you have to have a mold base to put it in, and when you get into doing one-piece bodies, you have to have a mold base capable of handling slides, and it can become an extremely complex project. All the while you have to plan out ejector pins so that they can be built into areas in which they won't affect the detail or leave visible marks, and take into account the shrink rate of the plastic, and gate and vent everything and...well...you get the idea.

It's kind of annoying when some "Joe" walks in off the street with some little gadget they want made in plastic and expects to pay a hundred bucks for a full-fledged mold. It's not hard to see why the cost of a mold can easily reach five figures (or much much more if you don't already have a mold base to work with). After the initial investment, each finished part only has a couple of cents worth of plastic in it, but you have to pay for all of the costs it took to get the mold to that point. It only takes about 15-30 seconds to produce a plastic part, which surprises a lot of people, but it takes months to construct the tooling.

I actually made a Power Point presentation about this process for school last year. I built a mold for an HO scale coal load (the Bowser H-43 to be exact). It didn't cost me much since I did the labor and had access to the machinary, but it was also a fairly simple mold (except for achieving the curves in the load...and then programing the CNC to machine them...). They look pretty good once I glue real coal to them. I had hoped to produce a series of these, but I don't have the time to manufacture large numbers. Speaking of time, I think I just spent a half an hour writing this... :rolleyes: ...guess I better go do something constructive now :D

[CBCNSfan]

It doesn't take as much electricity as one may think to heat up the plastic...it's not really that much different than an electric stove.
Ah! you are familier with the injection process. I'm afraid my experience with such presses was mostly maintaining quality control monitoring devices on the brutes. The presses made inserts for truck wheel rims, must have been for tube type truck tires. The molding compound was hard rubber and the heat source was steam. They were huge, I'll bet the hydraulic injection ram was 8 to 10 ft long. Can't remember the name clearly I believe it was Gallion. They were far from gentle, very noisy and very cantankerous :D I know when a defect in a mold was discovered it was an expensive repair job time and labour wise.
Cheers Willis

[sushob]

Here's our molding machine:
http://www.boyermachineandmold.com/images/00_00027.JPG

We've recently done a couple runs with a rubber-type compound, but ours were small grips for on power converters (to use North American appliances in European countries). We can only make small to medium parts, as this machine has a limit as to how much plastic can be melted and kept molten to be used per shot. A lot of HO car and engine bodies have come out of this machine, as well as lots of detail parts...window 'glass,' roof walks, brake parts, etc. I'm not quite as familiar with the larger molding machines, but I have been around a few at other machine shops. I'd love to see the machines that they use to make door panels for cars and the injection-molded lawn chairs...talk about some big presses! :D I'd also like to see some rotary molders, but that's a whole 'nuther subject.

[CBCNSfan]

but that's a whole 'nuther subject
yep! we're geting a bit off topic here, but it was nice to see the photo, even the little ones are big :D
Anyway do you think the cost of the brass today is justified that is to say Brass manufacturing costs plus various dealership markups when compared to the price of quality plastic models?

Cheers Willis

[sushob]

Well, of course it depends on the quality of the particular model, but I do think brass is a bit overpriced. I know that the brass manufacturers, especially when selling directly to the customer and bypassing the "middle man dealers," are making a ridiculous amount of money on their products. Although tooling and labor costs are spread out over a smaller number of finished pieces, the costs of overseas manufacturing is still significantly less than comparable American costs would be, and they sell the pieces for nearly as much as U.S. made brass (correct me if I'm wrong, for again I don't know much about brass). So basically, the companies that import models make more money than U.S. companies, and the (very few) U.S. based companies have a harder time selling their slightly more expensive product. Bottom line; import companies could sell their products for a lot less, and still make plenty of money, but when their only compitition is a couple higher priced U.S. made models, they'll charge as much as the U.S. models anyway. It's corporate America (or Korea, or China...); it's all about the money. :rolleyes:

Feel free to disagree...I know that you guys have more knowledge in this area than I do...I'm just stating my somewhat strongly opinionated view :D

[CBCNSfan]

Although tooling and labor costs are spread out over a smaller number of finished piecesExactly, now if the prices were lowered significantly it could be safe to assume that it would result in more sales therefore more manufacturing spreading the costs over a larger number of finished pieces. Mr. Irv. Athearn knew this long ago I wonder what happened in the meantime.
Cheers Willis

[mushroom2]

Mr. Irv. Athearn knew this long ago I wonder what happened in the meantime.
Cheers WillisCorporate greed.

[modelbob]

> if the prices were lowered significantly it could be safe to
> assume that it would result in more sales

In some cases yes, but not in others. Many of the brass manufacturer specialize in unique and lesser known protototypes. For example, I'm a real fan of geared logging locomotives, and while Bachmann has done well with them lately, I don't think they'd sell as well as other more traditional locomotives.

[CBCNSfan]

Many of the brass manufacturer specialize in unique and lesser known protototypes.
True BUT! that's a niche they fit themselves into, there is no written law :D that they have to produce lesser known models. During and after WWII the USA taught the world about mass production and how it was done. I guess uncle Irv was the only one who listened and learned. Another train of thought might be that there would be a market for the lesser known models if they were at a more reasonable price. As you say Bachmann has done well with them lately so that kind of speaks of a market out there waiting to be exploited by the venturesome entrepreneur.
Cheers Willis

[HaggisKennedy]

True BUT! that's a niche they fit themselves into, there is no written law :D that they have to produce lesser known models. During and after WWII the USA taught the world about mass production and how it was done. I guess uncle Irv was the only one who listened and learned. Another train of thought might be that there would be a market for the lesser known models if they were at a more reasonable price. As you say Bachmann has done well with them lately so that kind of speaks of a market out there waiting to be exploited by the venturesome entrepreneur.
Cheers Willis

It appears to me to be the chicken/egg situation. Sure, the brass guy can make better-known models. But, which one are you going to buy, the expensive brass SD40-2, or the inexpensive Kato SD40-2? It seems to me that the general modeller population will go for the latter. The brass guys aren't selling theirs for about $100ea,

Their niche is the lesser knowns, and yes, it's a limited run world for them. Still, there's that prototype fidelity there; that's what the brass buyers are looking for.

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

Hi Kennedy, if the brass mfgr.'s got mass producing and maintained quality, Well!!
the expensive brass SD40-2, or the inexpensive Kato SD40-2?
Ok Comparison todays prices in Canada
List Sale
Overland GP35 series, f/p, lettered, lights $743.00/ $474.00 Can
Kato GP35 37-045 Canadian Pacific 5019 $145.00 Can
Now if that Overland was 1/2 that guess what I'd pick. :D
Cheers Willis

[sushob]

Now if that Overland was 1/2 that guess what I'd pick. :D
Your nose? :D Sorry, couldn't let that one go.

I think you're going to see more and more highly-detailed plastic models in the future, with seperately applied details and quality mechanics that will really be competing with brass. I think that once the detail level in more plastic models reaches that of brass (some plastic models already have), mass-produced plastic models will start to bury the brass manufacturers. When it gets to the point that you can't tell if it's brass or plastic after it's painted, and plastic is half the price of the brass, there's not much to decide. And if you have the money to spend on the brass model, why not buy two of the just-as-highly-detailed plastic models instead? I'm not saying this is good or bad, I'm just conveying my observance.

[CBCNSfan]

mass-produced plastic models will start to bury the brass manufacturers. Eventually it will get close to that point, and those who refuse to go with the flow will be left behind. Can you imagine a farm using 1940's technology trying to compete with a modern farm of this decade? The bank would be forclosing on it and selling it to modern operators in no time.
The other side of the coin is, that as the plastic models increase in quality and accuracy, as has happened in the past, they will also increase in price, which will lessen the difference in price, thereby making the brass more attractive to the hobbiest

Cheers Willis
PS at half the price I'd still take the brass one as the plastic one isn't there yet. Looking at the Overland models (for example) there are a lot of finely crafted detail metal pieces soldered on much too fine to be done in plastic.

[sushob]

...there are a lot of finely crafted detail metal pieces soldered on much too fine to be done in plastic.
It's much more difficult to produce fine detail in plastic models, but if I may say so, the detail in plastic models is getting pretty dang close to that of some (some perhaps being the key word) brass models.

Here's a small example http://www.bowser-trains.com/img/56317.jpg. It may sound lame, but 'the picture doesn't do the piece justice.' If I had a kit I'd take a better picture of the scale grabs and fine see-thru roof walks, all of which happen to be plastic. It's hard to see the rivets on this picture. I think I have a body laying around here (a car body that is :o )...

[CBCNSfan]

Yes I agree some fine things can be done in plastic, however the finer the detail on some plastic detail items the weaker they are a very slight shock may be all that is needed to break them off. Eventually very thin plastic will become brittle as it ages and also more prone to breakage. All the detail parts on my locos are metal but even at that I wouldn't dare compare mine to these.
Cheers Willis
PS: Oh! but these cost about six times as much as mine :D
http://www.modeltrains.com/PICTURES/PICTURES%20-%20Brass/Overland/Pictures/OMI-6501-6750/omi-6702.2[2034]-3.jpg
http://www.modeltrains.com/PICTURES/PICTURES%20-%20Brass/Overland/Pictures/OMI-6501-6750/omi-6702.2[2034]-4.jpg
http://www.modeltrains.com/PICTURES/PICTURES%20-%20Brass/Overland/Pictures/OMI-6501-6750/omi-6702.2(2029)-2.jpg
http://www.modeltrains.com/PICTURES/PICTURES%20-%20Brass/Overland/Pictures/OMI-6501-6750/omi-6702.2(2029)-4.jpg
http://www.modeltrains.com/PICTURES/PICTURES%20-%20Brass/Overland/Pictures/OMI-6501-6750/omi-6702.2[2034]-2.jpg

[HaggisKennedy]

Hi Kennedy, if the brass mfgr.'s got mass producing and maintained quality, Well!!

Ok Comparison todays prices in Canada
List Sale
Overland GP35 series, f/p, lettered, lights $743.00/ $474.00 Can
Kato GP35 37-045 Canadian Pacific 5019 $145.00 Can
Now if that Overland was 1/2 that guess what I'd pick. :D
Cheers Willis

Thing is, at even half the price, ($240), most folks will still only pay $145 for the Kato. Cheapskates as most of us are, there are a lot of us that will not pay a $100 premium for a brass model when the Kato is just as good. And, I don't know how many folks would think that $100 premium is worth it even if the brass model was way better. Some things are just hard to beat, and the Kato is a great model. The end result is a glut of those brass models at the $100 premium that really won't sell.

Kennedy

[CBCNSfan]

Cheapskates as most of us are
Right! me too but if you look at the links to the Overland and the C630 photos at my site you will see they are of the same thing. The Overland are real models where as mine are representations of the same locos.
Let's say I averaged ( final bid and shipping) $28US per Tyco shell, two shells plus an Athearn U33C at about $40US. Add the paint decals, stripper and details and it'll certainly top the $100US. Make lead filler pieces for the chassis. Now believe me all the work does takes many days to complete. The cost alone would most likely get me a Kato, so another $100 in cost instead of days at the work bench doesn't seem too bad of a trade to me.
It's kind of strange to me as to why the CB&CNS brass locos are selling, good greif, it's a shortline established in 1993, in a nearly remote area of Canada, other than these forums I'm surprised anyone has heard of it. A couple months back there was a Tiger Valley C630 in Calif. done up as a CB&CNS and it went for big$ big$ bucks$ on eBay, bidding was fierce. Crazy world it is.
Cheers Willis

[modelbob]

> Here's a small example http://www.bowser-trains.com/img/56317.jpg

Well I just ordered one of those, along with a dozen of the 2 bay hoppers that Bowser makes, so that my new 4-8-2 has something appropriate to pull. I guess I'll know just how nice they are in a few days. I sure hope the "pink" color the hoppers look on the website turns out to be more boxcar red...

[modelbob]

PS - We're sort of overlooking one option in this discussion... What about the diecast stuff like Broadway Limited makes? I'm quite happy with the one I have, nice details, great sound system, DCC compatible and reasonable prices too.

[sushob]

Well I just ordered one of those, along with a dozen of the 2 bay hoppers that Bowser makes, so that my new 4-8-2 has something appropriate to pull. I guess I'll know just how nice they are in a few days. I sure hope the "pink" color the hoppers look on the website turns out to be more boxcar red...
:D :D Hope you enjoy them!! I'm working on some "Real Coal Loads" for the hoppers, if you're interested ;) ;) . Actually, the best thing about the Bowser models is that along with great detail, they're made in the U.S.! Imagine that...

[sushob]

PS - We're sort of overlooking one option in this discussion... What about the diecast stuff like Broadway Limited makes? I'm quite happy with the one I have, nice details, great sound system, DCC compatible and reasonable prices too.
The only problem I have with them is that they are still a product of Broadway Limited Imports. But again, that's just me, and since there really aren't many U.S. made models available, I would say they're a good option. (ever try any Bowser steamers? :D I know...I'm just a wee bit biased :rolleyes: )

[modelbob]

> Ever try any Bowser steamers?

You're still in High School, right? So obviously you're under 20, which means I've been running Bowser steam since before you were around. :) I even put them together from the kit, including the !@#* rivets on the valve gear. (I've done both, and if you ask me, it's easier to assemble the real thing! Fortunately I think they ship it pre-assembled now, correct?) I've got a Challenger around here someplace, come to think of it, that needs a decent Centipede tender and some superdetailing. Now how can I fit that into a Pennsy them? "Uh, we leased it from the Clinchfield?"

I like Bowser steam a lot, and in fact that's exactly what the BLI stuff reminds me of. Heavy metal bodies and nice details. It's the first thing I compared them to.

Now, here's the tough part... By the time I buy the kit and detail parts, I'm up to $300, the same as the BLI costs if you pay list price.

Now, add in a couple more factors. I have to assemble the Bowser kit (granted, this is part of the hobby, and can be enjoyable) and paint/letter it (which I'll never be able to do nearly as nicely as the manufacturer can) and it still doesn't have sound and DCC.

I like Bowser, I really do. I've ordered a 12 pack of hoppers from them and a couple cabin cars and I'm trying to find a way to fit a trolley line w/ PCC cars in my layout someplace.

But like most folks, I've got limited budgets for modeling.

[sushob]

>I even put them together from the kit, including the !@#* rivets on the valve gear. (I've done both, and if you ask me, it's easier to assemble the real thing! Fortunately I think they ship it pre-assembled now, correct?)
I believe there are two guys in the area that assemble a limited number of locos.

5 minutes later: Ah-hah! http://www.bowser-trains.com/ho_ready_to_run.php

Yes, they definitely take some time and patience to assemble. Personally, I don't think I could put one together (at least to any state of recognition). I'm not as familiar with steam, and not as interested in steam, as I am with more modern equipment (mainly the result of growing up in the diesel era), so I don't think I'd have the patience or attention span either. But hey, this is a hobby...that means it's supposed to be fun and relaxing, right? :D

[modelbob]

> Yes, they definitely take some time and patience to assemble.

I have to admit that was actually a good bit of the fun, putting it together and having it run, and run pretty well. My Bowser K4 is one of my favorite locos, and it was the one I usually took to train shows when I was in a local model railroad club, along with a string of billboard reefers that the public always seems to like.

What bugs me most was that I just didn't have the ability to paint and decal it as well as it could be done. I ended up painting it Brunswick Green and leaving it unlettered, hoping to get around to decalling it "some day".